Originally posted by BlixaB

Originally posted by Impacatus

Originally posted by Foxman13

Why does a game have to pure sandbox or pure "guide the players along" type game? In theory, a developer could create a system in which content is easily added to a game by staff and players alike, while providing a pre-determined path for players not interested in directly affecting the game world and who just want to experience pre-made content and/or content made by other players. Would a game like this satisfy players?

 

 

When I think of sandbox and player-made content, I'm not thinking so much of players taking the role of developers and designing and scripting quests and so on.  Rather, I'd like to see a game where the world is sculpted by the player's actions within the game.

In order for this to work, there has to be a coherent "virtual community" for players to interact in vie economics, politics, etc.  The problem is, if players are interacting with the world, they're not interacting with each other.  The two models of game are fundamentally opposed.

An example is loot vs. crafting.  If loot is availible that serves the same purpose as crafted goods and does it better, no one will want to buy from the crafters.  The sandbox player economy and the linear loot table cannot coexist in the same sphere.

I think it is possible to make a game that has both types of content if the two don't overlap, but then what's the point?  Why not make two seperate games instead?

 

Come on, be creative.

It isn't loot vs crafting, they can work together perfectly fine. Two thoughts of mine:

1) best items created by crafters who use looted recipes

2) best items are looted ones but they can be studdied any copied by crafters. Need valueable mats to create and break at some point (both, looted and crafted items should turn out to be exactly as good as the other one). They should also be very limited so for example there a different bosses who are dead for good when they're dead. So if you want to keep a certain item "alive", you have to recraft it due possible breaking.

Notice how I said they can't coexist, "in the same sphere".  What you're saying is to give them each seperate, distinct functions.

This doesn't help players who want to solo all the time and never interact with any crafters, which is what I was talking about.  It therefore would not appear to the linear players.

Originally posted by protoroc

I love how if someone doesnt enjoy a sandbox, they are somehow less of a player. Some people have enough of a real life they dont need a second life in a non-permanent world. Who's really the sad one? Get over yourself.

Using your own arguement. 
 

Who has a "Real" Life?  Name me one person who has a "real" life.  I love how some people think that just because I spend my time playing video games I don't have a "real" life.  What the hell is a "real" life?  Explain it to me.

Last time I checked, the only thing you or anyone else on this planet "has" to do is die.  Everything else is personal choice. Some people choose to work 80+ hours a week, others choose to have a family, others choose to be single and do the whole club scene, others choose to play video games, others choose to have a family and play video games, others choose to become a professional sports player and the list goes on and on.   The point is which one is living a "real" life?

So lets say we have Guy A, Guy B and Guy C.  Just for shits and giggles.

Guy A, B and C are best friends, they have known each other since brith.

Guy A becomes a Doctor, has 2 kids and a great wife, they have a nice house, 2 brand new cars, 2 dogs, the whole 9 yards.

Guy B becomes a garbage man, he has no wife or kids, lives in an apartment, has a used car .

Guy C becomes a manager at some office, has a wife and 2 kids, a nice house, 2 cars.

Which one has this so called "real" life?

This whole "real" life crap is just another way for people to put others down and feel good about themselfs.  How YOU choose to spend YOUR time on this planet is YOUR choice.  It is not up to anyone else to choose for you.

I choose to play video games because I love problme solving, I love challenging myself to over come puzzles that others make, its no different then someone that spends all their time playing chess or sports or any other hobby.  Everyone can choose to spend their time anyway they choose.

So Please explain to me how playing a game means you dont have a "real" life?  Explain to me what having a "real" life means?

Its funny, I love how you think that someone that doesn't have a "real" life is less of a person then someone that has a "real" life.

Sorry to break your bubble, but Sandbox games have done quite well.  UO was a sand box game, AC1 was a sandbox game, Eve is a sandbox game. 

So much for your argument.  Now of course they did not have everything some people want in such games, but enough to give the the label.

Originally posted by tfox2k1

Frankly a sandbox will never work because MMO gamers are not smart enough to manage an open ended content environment.

They have and do work, examples of course are Eve, UO, and old SWG.

Supporting evidence, most serious gamer realize MMOing is about time spent, not skill. I think of all those debates in various MMOs with so called 'skilled' players when I tell them their 'skill' comes from their level and gear. Level and gear come with time. So skill in an MMO equates to time spent in the MMO.

This has nothing to do with a sandbox, but ok.

This time spent equation is true in every MMO, I've ever played. Exception to this would be Guild Wars up until the first expansion. Planetside was also skill based, although not a true MMO.

Those wanting a sandbox, really are not wanting a sandbox. They are wanting an evolving, guided dungeon, like the AD&D of old with a skilled Dungeon Master.

No I don't.

You want a game where you can adventure and its different each time. You want to walk along a dark road one night and see nothing but the moon hanging in the sky. The next time you walk down this dark road, you want to get jumped by four goblins and have to fight for your life. You want to fight epic bosses who don't follow the same script each time. You want adventures to the bottom a a dungeon, no one else except your party has visited before.

Again, no I don't.

This is the sandbox you want. Well unfortunately technology is a LONG LONG LONG way from creating functional virtual world with chance encounters and intelligent AI.   (I actually think this is proof of God)

No I don't, and no it's not.

Since technology can't create the world you want, you have to rely upon other players to create this virtual world. Well guess what, they can't.

Yes it can and has been created.

What if we created virtual dungeon masters.   Say volunteers who ran this online MMO content and gave it intelligence.   These DM's could be trusted players who understand the game.     Guess what would happen, greed, favroritism, and dishonosty.   How long before these trusted DM's start giving out extra items or easier quests to their friends, alts, family? 

 WHAT?

Therefore a true sandbox MMO is still many decades away (if ever).
 

Wrong again.

I've seen you spout a lot of anti-sandbox stuff in previous posts, and now I understand why. You are completely out of touch with  what us "sandboxers" actually want. You are sitting here telling us all exactly what we want(like you have any way of knowing) and you couldn't be more wrong. An evolving guided dungeon? Different events happening every time I go somewhere? Not at all. While the different events would be cool, why would I want a guided evolving dungeon. The very guided part makes it not a sandbox.

I want a world that is manipulated and changed by the players. I want a game where the players drive the economy with crafted goods. None of that has to do with a "Guided dungeon" and technology is very capable and already accomplished sandbox style worlds.

I find it really funny that you are always spouting anti-sandbox stuff yet have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

Originally posted by tfox2k1

Frankly a sandbox will never work because MMO gamers are not smart enough to manage an open ended content environment.

speak for yourself

Supporting evidence, most serious gamer realize MMOing is about time spent, not skill. I think of all those debates in various MMOs with so called 'skilled' players when I tell them their 'skill' comes from their level and gear. Level and gear come with time. So skill in an MMO equates to time spent in the MMO...

most agree with that sentiment (and the following equasions)... although it bears no relevance to the sandbox discussion

• time spent ingame = levels & gear
• levels & gear > skill

... Those wanting a sandbox, really are not wanting a sandbox. They are wanting an evolving, guided dungeon, like the AD&D of old with a skilled Dungeon Master...

no i'm after a sandbox, with lots of player-driven content, and the feeling of freedom to make my own choices. So linear, predertimed quest-in-order gameplay is way-out.

Well unfortunately technology is a LONG LONG LONG way from creating functional virtual world with chance encounters and intelligent AI.   (I actually think this is proof of God)

no it isnt (*insert 'Intelligent Design' joke here*)

Since technology can't create the world you want, you have to rely upon other players to create this virtual world. Well guess what, they can't.

the technology exists so whats you on about?

What if we created virtual dungeon masters.   Say volunteers who ran this online MMO content and gave it intelligence.   These DM's could be trusted players who understand the game.     Guess what would happen, greed, favroritism, and dishonosty.   How long before these trusted DM's start giving out extra items or easier quests to their friends, alts, family?

what has this to do with sandboxes? as with all games, should your DMs (GMs) have powers to spawn certain items / quests / mobs... the company hosting the game would need to provide checks to prevent favouritism, and be very transparant about it to the playerbase to engender trust 

 Therefore a true sandbox MMO is still many decades away (if ever).

nope, theyve been up and running for years
 

Originally posted by BlixaB

Originally posted by Impacatus

Originally posted by Foxman13

Why does a game have to pure sandbox or pure "guide the players along" type game? In theory, a developer could create a system in which content is easily added to a game by staff and players alike, while providing a pre-determined path for players not interested in directly affecting the game world and who just want to experience pre-made content and/or content made by other players. Would a game like this satisfy players?

 

 

When I think of sandbox and player-made content, I'm not thinking so much of players taking the role of developers and designing and scripting quests and so on.  Rather, I'd like to see a game where the world is sculpted by the player's actions within the game.

In order for this to work, there has to be a coherent "virtual community" for players to interact in vie economics, politics, etc.  The problem is, if players are interacting with the world, they're not interacting with each other.  The two models of game are fundamentally opposed.

An example is loot vs. crafting.  If loot is availible that serves the same purpose as crafted goods and does it better, no one will want to buy from the crafters.  The sandbox player economy and the linear loot table cannot coexist in the same sphere.

I think it is possible to make a game that has both types of content if the two don't overlap, but then what's the point?  Why not make two seperate games instead?

 

Come on, be creative.

It isn't loot vs crafting, they can work together perfectly fine. Two thoughts of mine:

1) best items created by crafters who use looted recipes

2) best items are looted ones but they can be studdied any copied by crafters. Need valueable mats to create and break at some point (both, looted and crafted items should turn out to be exactly as good as the other one). They should also be very limited so for example there a different bosses who are dead for good when they're dead. So if you want to keep a certain item "alive", you have to recraft it due possible breaking.

SWG did this.  thats why i loved the game crafters, hunters , builders, statemen,  it had it all
 

Originally posted by Ozmodan

Sorry to break your bubble, but Sandbox games have done quite well.  UO was a sand box game, AC1 was a sandbox game, Eve is a sandbox game. 

So much for your argument.  Now of course they did not have everything some people want in such games, but enough to give the the label.

Oh, they can do "well".  The problem is that they don't do "spectacular".

The money men are NOT SATISFIED with "well". 

Originally posted by RAWRG

K, this is an idea that only came up as I was reading things, so it's by no means thought through, but I (think I) feel the pain of the OP in wanting a complicated game, but not having the community for it. If there was some way to have both kinds of worlds in one game, with easy transitions between the two. It may not work so well with a skill system, but a world in general, where in a certain bubble, everything is decided, finite and traditional. Leave the bubble and you enter a world of undefined maximums, few predefined quests, and lots to explore/manipulate.

Of course this is like saying I want my room cold and hot at the same time, but if the gaming community really puts thought behind it, I'm sure we can come up with something the developers will be glad to "borrow."

i was just thinking about the same thing a gate form the normal guidet game to a world with player created contend so people that like guidet games can interact with ppl that like sandox ones for the better of the game and the whole comunitty.

ofcorse there will be fights between the two sides but this will make it even more interesting.

separating these two tipes of players in 2 games will make game A want to copy from game B so they can still soem subs and the other way around creating a A that is a lesser B and a B that is a lesser A,

why not instead try to bring them all together in one game one single game that will cater to everyones needs.It can be done it just takes some big budget companies behind it, but it will surelly bring in allot of cash as it will be the best game out there it will even surpeas WoW in number of subs.

Originally posted by tfox2k1 

This is the sandbox you want. Well unfortunately technology is a LONG LONG LONG way from creating functional virtual world with chance encounters and intelligent AI.   (I actually think this is proof of God)

 

Obviously an AI isn't going to replace a person any time soon. But that doesn't mean you can't play those sorts of "sandbox" games you are referring to.

There is the Ryzom Ring which lets players create content like a Dungeon Master:

Someone on this forum posted that City of Heroes is adding a similar feature.

There is already Never Winter Nights, although NWN2 sucks, IMO, because it's so hard to log on to games.

Also Dungeons and Dragons is going online, so that there is a digital table top, and you can game with a dungeon master online.

Originally posted by Zekiah

Not only that but the mobs in Darkfall will grow in strength over time including spawning champions and creating structures.

If Darkfall isn't considered a sandbox game, I don't want to play games anymore.

Darkfall isn't even a game, it's a series of short video clips on the internet.

Have fun "playing" that.

You have a sandbox MMO already, it's called Second Life.

     People need to quit acting like you need a doctorate to play sandbox type games......They aren't any more difficult jsut different.....Eve isn't difficult in itself but the rulesets make it difficult (ie losing your ship, etc)......The sandbox games I have played all had one recurring theme: they lack direction.....While you can do anything you want in them, the porblem is that there really isnt all that much to do and there really isnt any goal to pursue....Sure you can make your own goals like to max certain skills but often I end up asking "why?".........

Sandbox + Content = The future

Originally posted by tfox2k1

Frankly a sandbox will never work because MMO gamers are not smart enough to manage an open ended content environment.

Supporting evidence, most serious gamer realize MMOing is about time spent, not skill. I think of all those debates in various MMOs with so called 'skilled' players when I tell them their 'skill' comes from their level and gear. Level and gear come with time. So skill in an MMO equates to time spent in the MMO.

This time spent equation is true in every MMO, I've ever played. Exception to this would be Guild Wars up until the first expansion. Planetside was also skill based, although not a true MMO.

Those wanting a sandbox, really are not wanting a sandbox. They are wanting an evolving, guided dungeon, like the AD&D of old with a skilled Dungeon Master.

You want a game where you can adventure and its different each time. You want to walk along a dark road one night and see nothing but the moon hanging in the sky. The next time you walk down this dark road, you want to get jumped by four goblins and have to fight for your life. You want to fight epic bosses who don't follow the same script each time. You want adventures to the bottom a a dungeon, no one else except your party has visited before.

This is the sandbox you want. Well unfortunately technology is a LONG LONG LONG way from creating functional virtual world with chance encounters and intelligent AI.   (I actually think this is proof of God)

Since technology can't create the world you want, you have to rely upon other players to create this virtual world. Well guess what, they can't.

What if we created virtual dungeon masters.   Say volunteers who ran this online MMO content and gave it intelligence.   These DM's could be trusted players who understand the game.     Guess what would happen, greed, favroritism, and dishonosty.   How long before these trusted DM's start giving out extra items or easier quests to their friends, alts, family? 

 

Therefore a true sandbox MMO is still many decades away (if ever).
 

The first mmo around (UO) was a sandbox, and if i say so myself, it did pretty damn well considering how new the genre was, "brand new" So by saying sandbox will never succeed is basically saying the first MMORPG to make people know the term "mmorpg" is fail? that would mean the entire MMORPG genre was created off of pure fail. Wonderful, glad you are amazingly smart.

Originally posted by denshing

 

The first mmo around (UO) was a sandbox, and if i say so myself, it did pretty damn well considering how new the genre was, "brand new" So by saying sandbox will never succeed is basically saying the first MMORPG to make people know the term "mmorpg" is fail? that would mean the entire MMORPG genre was created off of pure fail. Wonderful, glad you are amazingly smart.

That is a long time ago. I was in the UO beta and it was a pk-fest or click-fest trying to mine.

This kind of antiquated design no longer attract players in this new age of MMORPG. Heck, I jumped ship as soon as EQ came out and MMOs today are much much better with less camping, and less of a chore to play.

Originally posted by tfox2k1
...........................

This is the sandbox you want. Well unfortunately technology is a LONG LONG LONG way from creating functional virtual world with chance encounters and intelligent AI.   (I actually think this is proof of God)

Since technology can't create the world you want, you have to rely upon other players to create this virtual world. Well guess what, they can't.

What if we created virtual dungeon masters.   Say volunteers who ran this online MMO content and gave it intelligence.   These DM's could be trusted players who understand the game.     Guess what would happen, greed, favroritism, and dishonosty.   How long before these trusted DM's start giving out extra items or easier quests to their friends, alts, family?  

Therefore a true sandbox MMO is still many decades away (if ever).

And the light shall guide you down the path of truth.....amen
 

I disagree. Sandbox games can work. I've played them.

I think the fallacy is that the poster thinks sandbox must require varied PvE gameplay.

Sandbox games like ryzom drive me nuts because there are basically 30 mobs and you just grind them till you are maxed in whatever skilltree you choose.

Alternatively games that have player driven content based around PvP doesnt need the AI that is decades away.

Originally posted by Theocritus

     People need to quit acting like you need a doctorate to play sandbox type games......They aren't any more difficult jsut different.....Eve isn't difficult in itself but the rulesets make it difficult (ie losing your ship, etc)......The sandbox games I have played all had one recurring theme: they lack direction.....While you can do anything you want in them, the porblem is that there really isnt all that much to do and there really isnt any goal to pursue....Sure you can make your own goals like to max certain skills but often I end up asking "why?".........

A major problem as I see it is that too many people are used to, and anticipate being, passive consumers of some product.

The entire attraction of MMOs to me is being able to live a virutal life in a realm where the bounds of realty do not apply.  This can be done with directed content, player created content, or both.

Just give me the world to play in, and I'll build my own sandcastles.  This is one of the real attractions of SimCity or Civ to me.

The catch is the audience for this sort of thing is limited.  It's not that these projects won't be successful, they won't be successful  enough to satisfy the moneymen who back these very expensive projects up.  Oh, you can bootstrap to some extent, as we've seen with EVE, but the big boys?  Massive success or you're an abject failure, even if you're profitable. 

That's the barrier.  It's very artificial, but the fact is that "narrowcasting" just hasn't been accepted as a concept in the MMO industry.  I think it will in a few years, but not right now.  WoW clouds everything.

Originally posted by Theocritus

     People need to quit acting like you need a doctorate to play sandbox type games......They aren't any more difficult jsut different.....Eve isn't difficult in itself but the rulesets make it difficult (ie losing your ship, etc)......The sandbox games I have played all had one recurring theme: they lack direction.....While you can do anything you want in them, the porblem is that there really isnt all that much to do and there really isnt any goal to pursue....Sure you can make your own goals like to max certain skills but often I end up asking "why?".........

No no no. The popular things are:

1. linear straight forward sectioned off area until you get to level X. Leave the area before level X and you die.

2. discouraged exploration that might lead to having to figure something out.

3. training wheels until maximum level is reached.

4. everyone gets the same attributes as they progress, only thing that changes att. are items.

5.     ! and ? for quests so you can turn them in faster and move on to the next !.

Originally posted by tfox2k1

Frankly a sandbox will never work because MMO gamers are not smart enough to manage an open ended content environment.

Supporting evidence, most serious gamer realize MMOing is about time spent, not skill. I think of all those debates in various MMOs with so called 'skilled' players when I tell them their 'skill' comes from their level and gear. Level and gear come with time. So skill in an MMO equates to time spent in the MMO.

This time spent equation is true in every MMO, I've ever played. Exception to this would be Guild Wars up until the first expansion. Planetside was also skill based, although not a true MMO.

Those wanting a sandbox, really are not wanting a sandbox. They are wanting an evolving, guided dungeon, like the AD&D of old with a skilled Dungeon Master.

You want a game where you can adventure and its different each time. You want to walk along a dark road one night and see nothing but the moon hanging in the sky. The next time you walk down this dark road, you want to get jumped by four goblins and have to fight for your life. You want to fight epic bosses who don't follow the same script each time. You want adventures to the bottom a a dungeon, no one else except your party has visited before.

This is the sandbox you want. Well unfortunately technology is a LONG LONG LONG way from creating functional virtual world with chance encounters and intelligent AI.   (I actually think this is proof of God)

Since technology can't create the world you want, you have to rely upon other players to create this virtual world. Well guess what, they can't.

What if we created virtual dungeon masters.   Say volunteers who ran this online MMO content and gave it intelligence.   These DM's could be trusted players who understand the game.     Guess what would happen, greed, favroritism, and dishonosty.   How long before these trusted DM's start giving out extra items or easier quests to their friends, alts, family? 

 

Therefore a true sandbox MMO is still many decades away (if ever).
 

Go over to darkfall website and learn what a true sandbox game is and how you can play in a open free roaming world with dynamic mobs where dungeons can be discover where no one has ever been, where you clear a dungeon and come back in week or 2 and suddenly other mobs roaming inside these  dungeons.

Its to much to explain here but if you take the time learn about darkfall, then you never would have posted this topic:P