Originally posted by tvalentine

Originally posted by DeserttFoxx

 

 

 

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Spore, Fallout 3, Possibly DFO, Sins of a solar empire, just to name a few.

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You haven't played Spore, Fallout 3, or DFO. So I don't quite understand why you feel they are useable examples of good PC games.
It's obtuse to use those as examples, and that's putting it mildly. That's like saying Duke Nukem Forever will be a shining example of polish and gameplay... maybe that's a little over the top, but you get the picture.

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Thanks for saving me the trouble on this one. Im going to guess that DFO is darkfall online(i hate when people are too lazy to type out full names) Which i am going to say, i would be surprised if this game seen the light of day before 2010, it doesnt count, as this game is very much vaporeware, and yes ive seen the uploaded earlier this week.

 

You can put spore or fallout 3 in the category yet, you havent played them, and while you bought the marketing, it doesnt mean instant hit. I paid in full for warhammer online, doesnt change the fact that i dont plan on buying it anymore today, and playing the game weighted heavily on that decision.

I also played solar empire, you wouldve had a better chance using company of heroes, at least i wouldve agreed with that.

Spore has already fucked up, or do you know not know how DRM works? Maybe you should read up on that form anti piracy protection, because if you knew what DRM was, you would understand the reason for rule #6.

And even if its game play is good, 1 game out of hundreds doesnt make it pc best gaming year.

 

you said games for this year, never said if they were released or not. And BTW DFO has a release date set for 2008, im not a fanboi but im not a troll either for this game. And COH came out before this year, if you want i can list you more games that i have in general not just reduced to 2008 alone.

Spore didnt fuck up, maybe you should go to the OT section and read the thread with my post and you'll understand my stance on that.

EDIT: also, heres some proof. http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/195740

Perhaps you should read my post on DRM... www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/2232506#2232506

darkfalls release date is set for 2008.. so is heros journey, whats your point?

City of heroes has been out for 4 years...try again.

1) This Bill of Rights was not made by a Gamer, but by a SOFTWARE COMPANY, so do not all go treating it like "no company will ever uphold these" as Stardock already is, considering THEY made them. Also this is not the work of some solo dude, but of a whole company and all their partners (Stardock publish a lot of indie products, all working with no cd keys protection and all can be downloaded as many times as you want from their stardock progam, all protected by account and password of course)

2) The video gaming industry is THE ONLY ONE where potential customers are treated like criminals. Innocent until proven guilty is the main point on which western judicial system works but the video games companies do not seem to care.

3) if a pirate wants to pirate, HE WILL! copy protection does not prevent that! This has been proven over and over and still companies implement more draconic ways of protections that hurt the legitimate user more than anything (see the latest Mass Effect and Spore PC games for a proof)

4) Piracy always existed, why is that? 2 motives. convenience and cost. Games costs quite much and it is much more convenient to download something from the net than to go out, try to find the game you want and then be abused by these copy protection systems. Digital downloads with an account, like Steam or Stardock, are the way to kill piracy or at least to lessen it a lot. Yes, this would hurt the retailers a lot and that is why you do not see more of this being done but there must be a way to have retailers remain while implementing this, not everyone wants to download gigs of product every day, but an online account system, similar as MMorpg have, would work and mantain the retailers... of course it would kill the second hand games market that is what Retailers live on, but that market would remain for Consoles games that is what most retailers make their money on anyhow.

5) To all those that do not want these rights, fine, be my guest, you do not HAVE to use them, but I do not see ANY reason why people should whine about getting MORE rights, unless you like having half baked software that does not work installing malware on your computer.

I just have to say, Goodjob Stardock! It would be due time that the rest of the videogame industry wake up.

PS: Stardock are the makers of great games like Galactic Civilizations 2, Sins of a Solar empire and they also distributes games like Disciples 2, another excellent turn based game.

Originally posted by DeserttFoxx

Originally posted by tvalentine

Originally posted by DeserttFoxx

 

 

 

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Spore, Fallout 3, Possibly DFO, Sins of a solar empire, just to name a few.

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You haven't played Spore, Fallout 3, or DFO. So I don't quite understand why you feel they are useable examples of good PC games.
It's obtuse to use those as examples, and that's putting it mildly. That's like saying Duke Nukem Forever will be a shining example of polish and gameplay... maybe that's a little over the top, but you get the picture.

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Thanks for saving me the trouble on this one. Im going to guess that DFO is darkfall online(i hate when people are too lazy to type out full names) Which i am going to say, i would be surprised if this game seen the light of day before 2010, it doesnt count, as this game is very much vaporeware, and yes ive seen the uploaded earlier this week.

 

You can put spore or fallout 3 in the category yet, you havent played them, and while you bought the marketing, it doesnt mean instant hit. I paid in full for warhammer online, doesnt change the fact that i dont plan on buying it anymore today, and playing the game weighted heavily on that decision.

I also played solar empire, you wouldve had a better chance using company of heroes, at least i wouldve agreed with that.

Spore has already fucked up, or do you know not know how DRM works? Maybe you should read up on that form anti piracy protection, because if you knew what DRM was, you would understand the reason for rule #6.

And even if its game play is good, 1 game out of hundreds doesnt make it pc best gaming year.

 

you said games for this year, never said if they were released or not. And BTW DFO has a release date set for 2008, im not a fanboi but im not a troll either for this game. And COH came out before this year, if you want i can list you more games that i have in general not just reduced to 2008 alone.

Spore didnt fuck up, maybe you should go to the OT section and read the thread with my post and you'll understand my stance on that.

EDIT: also, heres some proof. http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/195740

Perhaps you should read my post on DRM... www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/2232506#2232506

darkfalls release date is set for 2008.. so is heros journey, whats your point?

City of heroes has been out for 4 years...try again.

yeah again 3 installs isnt anything for me to get angry or upset about

you called DFO vaporware that would be released in 2010, just thought i would correct you.

It still stands though, PC Gaming is not going down.

Now that I read it, come to think of it this thing looks like a dumbed down version of the ACM or IEEE Code of Ethics. With a few things that are domain-specific, that is and quite a few things that are lacking.

Here's my version:

1)  Gamers shall have the right to do research and read reviews before they buy games.

2)  Gamers shall have the right to vote with their wallets.

3)  Gamers shall have the right to file complaints with the BBB.

4)  Gamers shall have the right to let other people know.

5)  Gamers shall have the right to play the demo first.

6)  Gamers shall have the right to wait a month or two after the release of an MMORPG before buying it. 

7)  Gamers shall have the right to try and use their credit card companies' charge back systems.

8)  Gamers shall have the right only to play games made by reputable game companies.

9)  Gamers shall have the right to try pirated copies of games before buying them...unless they get caught.

10)  Gamers shall have the right to go outside and play sports...sports don't have bugs.

Originally posted by Volkmar

1) This Bill of Rights was not made by a Gamer, but by a SOFTWARE COMPANY, so do not all go treating it like "no company will ever uphold these" as Stardock already is, considering THEY made them. Also this is not the work of some solo dude, but of a whole company and all their partners (Stardock publish a lot of indie products, all working with no cd keys protection and all can be downloaded as many times as you want from their stardock progam, all protected by account and password of course)

Do Indie devs really have any other choice?

2) The video gaming industry is THE ONLY ONE where potential customers are treated like criminals. Innocent until proven guilty is the main point on which western judicial system works but the video games companies do not seem to care.

The what are those funny plastic tags that are pinned to all the merchandise I ever buy in a store?  For that matter, why do stores lock up at night when no one is around?  I mean, most people would like to be able to buy shoes at 10 o'clock on Sunday if they need to, and would be happy to leave money on the counter.

3) if a pirate wants to pirate, HE WILL! copy protection does not prevent that! This has been proven over and over and still companies implement more draconic ways of protections that hurt the legitimate user more than anything (see the latest Mass Effect and Spore PC games for a proof)

Copy protection may not prevent professional or advanced piracy, but it does prevent casual piracy, like where you make a copy of a disc and give it to your friend so he doesn't have to buy it.  This can be a significant source of lost profits for game companies.

4) Piracy always existed, why is that? 2 motives. convenience and cost. Games costs quite much and it is much more convenient to download something from the net han to go out, try to find the game you want and then be abused by these copy protection systems. Digital downloads with an account, like Steam or Stardock, are the way to kill piracy or at least to lessen it a lot. Yes, this would hurt the retailers a lot and that is why you do not see more of this being done but there must be a way to have retailers remain while implementing this, not everyone wants to download gigs of product every day, but an online account system, similar as MMorpg have, would work and mantain the retailers... of course it would kill the second hand games market that is what Retailers live on, but that market would remain for Consoles games that is what most retailers make their money on anyhow.

Who the hell cares about retailers.  Do you really think anyone gives a crap if some huge corporation can't make a profit by wasting your gas to sell you a useless box?  Name one video game retailer that you wouldn't gladly push under a bus.

5) To all those that do not want these rights, fine, be my guest, you do not HAVE to use them, but I do not see ANY reason why people should whine about getting MORE rights, unless you like having half baked software that does not work installing malware on your computer.

I just have to say, Goodjob Stardock! It would be due time that the rest of the videogame industry wake up.

PS: Stardock are the makers of great games like Galactic Civilizations 2, Sins of a Solar empire and they also distributes games like Disciples 2, another excellent turn based game.

 

Can i add another rule?

-Gamers shouldn't moan about anything because developing and releasing a game isn't as easy as you think, and should be grateful for what they get because other people spend time making and releasing them for the gamers pleasure.

Originally posted by Jessixa

Can i add another rule?

-Gamers shouldn't moan about anything because developing and releasing a game isn't as easy as you think, and should be grateful for what they get because other people spend time making and releasing them for the gamers pleasure.

And another:

- Gamers have to kiss the developers and distributors ass every Saturday, and serve in their houses when they have friends, to show how grateful they are for them developing games.

- Gamers will do the same for the creators of motorcycles, cars, TV sets, MP3 players, houses, hotels, roads, dresses, jeans, glasses, bycicles, skates, movie theaters, movies, songs, paintings and sex toys.

- Gamers shall not complain and will only  be allowed to say how great games, and the other products, are unless they are able to actually create a better version of the game or product they dare to criticize. If they fail to do so, they will be publicly whipped.

I agree with that but thats not what we are talking about, we are talking about unfinished games this has nothing to do with the challenge and depth of the games bud.

i think these rights could easily be summed up in 3 "rights"

1. gamers have the right to over hype and flame hate on any given game.

2. gamers have the right to be sorely dissapointed in every aspect of every game

3. gamers have the right to stop playing any given game and start playing any given diffrent game at anytime.

or was this suppose to be a developers bill of rights?

1. developers have the right to create the holy grail of all mmos

2. developers have the right to create crap and call it the holy grail of all game

Originally posted by rikilii

Originally posted by Volkmar

The what are those funny plastic tags that are pinned to all the merchandise I ever buy in a store?  For that matter, why do stores lock up at night when no one is around?  I mean, most people would like to be able to buy shoes at 10 o'clock on Sunday if they need to, and would be happy to leave money on the counter.

Copy protection may not prevent professional or advanced piracy, but it does prevent casual piracy, like where you make a copy of a disc and give it to your friend so he doesn't have to buy it.  This can be a significant source of lost profits for game companies.

Who the hell cares about retailers.  Do you really think anyone gives a crap if some huge corporation can't make a profit by wasting your gas to sell you a useless box?  Name one video game retailer that you wouldn't gladly push under a bus.

 

 

1) are you serious or are you just pulling my leg here? you compare copy protection to the plastic tags in shops? Those are to prevent stealing, they do not hurt you as a customer! they do not lessen the quality of the product at all! You buy it, you pay, you get rid of the tag, done!

The copy protection would be like that if you try to use the latest t-shirt you just bought on your sewing machine, it stops working!

And the night openings? that has NOTHING to do with people being considered criminals and ALL about people not wanting to work when it is 22 o'clock. Not to mention labor laws and the like. But hey, go to this wonderful site called www.amazon.com and guess what? you can place an order even at 00:00!

2)Yeah! I can see it happening in EA boards of director "Sirs.... here are the latest date on piracy... 80% of it is professional piracy from the internet.... 15% is people buying copied disks and 5% is friends loaning each other games" "LET'S HIT THE 5%!"

Beside.... NOTHING stops those friend to download a modified exe from even legittimate sites as many people cannot suffer the "cd must be in the drive" limitation. But honestly? Copy protection done to hurt friends loaning games? seems absurd to me!

3)You might not care about retailers, but publishers surely do! What I meant is that publishers might even want to create a bigger digital download distribution system, as that would cut down a lot of costs, but they cannot simply ignore giants like GameStop that would fight really hard against such a system as it put them out of the market.

Originally posted by InTheSea

Originally posted by Jenneroflok

As someone who started playing computer games on an IBM PCjr that I bought within a few weeks of it's release and has been playing all type of Computer games Since Wizardry 1.  I can tell you, short of a 100% boycott of the industry none of those demands will be adopted by the industry as a whole. 

 

WRONG. When players get sick of unfinished content the company gets a reputation hit. Funcom is a good example.

PC gamers will start to demand better and better games it's just a matter of people speaking up and not accepting bad or unfinished games.

Yes the Company will take a reputation hit, case in point SOE after what they did with NGE (Although, I think i blame Lucas Arts more for NGE then Sony), but as long as enought money is flowing in to not only pay for the game operations, but make somewhat a profit,  they will see bad reputation as a blimp in the radar that will even out in the long run.   The only a really hard hit in their bottom line will get companies to change their behavior; other case in point , even though several people left SWG, sony has not gone back to pre CU or even NGE servers.

Originally posted by Volkmar

Originally posted by rikilii

Originally posted by Volkmar

The what are those funny plastic tags that are pinned to all the merchandise I ever buy in a store?  For that matter, why do stores lock up at night when no one is around?  I mean, most people would like to be able to buy shoes at 10 o'clock on Sunday if they need to, and would be happy to leave money on the counter.

Copy protection may not prevent professional or advanced piracy, but it does prevent casual piracy, like where you make a copy of a disc and give it to your friend so he doesn't have to buy it.  This can be a significant source of lost profits for game companies.

Who the hell cares about retailers.  Do you really think anyone gives a crap if some huge corporation can't make a profit by wasting your gas to sell you a useless box?  Name one video game retailer that you wouldn't gladly push under a bus.

 

 

1) are you serious or are you just pulling my leg here? you compare copy protection to the plastic tags in shops? Those are to prevent stealing, they do not hurt you as a customer! they do not lessen the quality of the product at all! You buy it, you pay, you get rid of the tag, done!

That's not always true.  A lot of the time, there's a big extra hole in my item that shouldn't be there.  Sometimes they forget to take the tag off, and I set off the alarm--very embarrassing. 

The copy protection would be like that if you try to use the latest t-shirt you just bought on your sewing machine, it stops working!

Effective copy protection shouldn't affect your enjoyment of a game any more than inventory control tags affects your enjoyment of your t-shirt.  If it does, complain about the TYPE of copy protection, not the concept of copy protection in general. 

And the night openings? that has NOTHING to do with people being considered criminals and ALL about people not wanting to work when it is 22 o'clock. Not to mention labor laws and the like. But hey, go to this wonderful site called www.amazon.com and guess what? you can place an order even at 00:00!

Like I said, if you didn't have to treat 99% of your customers like criminals in order to take care of the 1% who really are, you wouldn't need employees at 00:00.  You could just leave the door to your store unlocked, people could come take what they need, leave the money on the counter, and turn off the lights when they leave.

Amazon.com is no substitute, because I have to wait at least 2 days to get my purchase, kind of like how I might have to wait for a day to play a game that requires an internet connection, and they have no analogous concerns over theft, because they don't send it to you until after you pay for it.  I guess the only analogous thing they have to worry about is credit card fraud.  To help combat that, they actually require you to enter that little 3-digit code from the back of your card.  See, they're treating you like a criminal too.  How dare they?!?!?

2)Yeah! I can see it happening in EA boards of director "Sirs.... here are the latest date on piracy... 80% of it is professional piracy from the internet.... 15% is people buying copied disks and 5% is friends loaning each other games" "LET'S HIT THE 5%!"

I don't know the real numbers, but I highly doubt YOUR numbers are even close to reality.  Large scale professional pirates are easier to catch and can be shut down by other means.  It's the people who would make 1 or 2 copies for their buddies that are the bigger problem, I'd bet.

Beside.... NOTHING stops those friend to download a modified exe from even legittimate sites as many people cannot suffer the "cd must be in the drive" limitation. But honestly? Copy protection done to hurt friends loaning games? seems absurd to me!

I'm not sure what you're talking about, but no copy protection scheme needs to prevent loaning of games, only COPYING of games (i.e. you buy a copy, then make 4 copies of it and give them to your friends so they don't have to buy them).  Console games are considered to have near-perfect copy protection, and you can loan, resell, or rent out console games all day.

3)You might not care about retailers, but publishers surely do! What I meant is that publishers might even want to create a bigger digital download distribution system, as that would cut down a lot of costs, but they cannot simply ignore giants like GameStop that would fight really hard against such a system as it put them out of the market.

Publishers care about retailers NOW, because they sell a lot of through off the shelf, impulse buys, especially for more casual titles, and around the holidays when parents are buying crap for their kids.  That will probably change as people become more accustomed to downloading games (just as they have with music).  The publishers would probably be delighted not to have to share the profits with the retailers.  The extra money they make could be put into advertising to get more people to download.

Amen

Finally some sense

I SUPPORT THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!