Originally posted by SwampRob

Originally posted by rikilii

Originally posted by SwampRob

I am in total agreement with the OP.

I did, for the most part, enjoy Wow up to the top level, which is when the game starts to suck.

I yearn for the day when an MMO will come out that lets me experience (and benefit from!) endgame PvE content without forcing me to group or raid.    A few games permit this somewhat (GW, CoH), but why do so many games make it so you can only get the best gear through grouping?

 

Again, I ask the question:  Why don't you just stop playing when you run out of things you like to do?  No game can be all things to all people.

I do.   But it pisses me off that I have to.   I have enjoyed the game up to the top level, and suddenly what I must do to progress further radically changes?   Must it be so?    Can't I at least continue to improve my character in ways other than experience points?

There are tons of things you can do in WoW to improve your character after you hit the cap that don't involve raiding or faction grinding.

1.  PVP

2.  Non-raid instances

3.  Daily Quests

4.  Other quests for money so you can buy better gear.

At some point you'll do everything there is to do to the point where there's nothing left.  Raiding is only a small part of that.

Originally posted by rikilii

Originally posted by SwampRob

Originally posted by rikilii

Originally posted by SwampRob

I am in total agreement with the OP.

I did, for the most part, enjoy Wow up to the top level, which is when the game starts to suck.

I yearn for the day when an MMO will come out that lets me experience (and benefit from!) endgame PvE content without forcing me to group or raid.    A few games permit this somewhat (GW, CoH), but why do so many games make it so you can only get the best gear through grouping?

 

Again, I ask the question:  Why don't you just stop playing when you run out of things you like to do?  No game can be all things to all people.

I do.   But it pisses me off that I have to.   I have enjoyed the game up to the top level, and suddenly what I must do to progress further radically changes?   Must it be so?    Can't I at least continue to improve my character in ways other than experience points?

 

There are tons of things you can do in WoW to improve your character after you hit the cap that don't involve raiding or faction grinding.

1.  PVP

2.  Non-raid instances

3.  Daily Quests

4.  Other quests for money so you can buy better gear.

At some point you'll do everything there is to do to the point where there's nothing left.  Raiding is only a small part of that.

1. I hate pvp

2. There's almost no gear I can get from an instance that would be an upgrade for any of my 70s.

3. Gain you what?   Gold and a very small chance at a badge.

4. I suppose I could grind for a zillion hours to spend 1500g or more gold on a single item that is a marginal upgrade.   GG Blizzard with soulbinding nearly every single raid drop.

How about an MMO that offers me a way to progress my char through solo PvE?   You know, like I was able to do for the 70 levels that got me here?

Originally posted by rikilii

Originally posted by SwampRob

I am in total agreement with the OP.

I did, for the most part, enjoy Wow up to the top level, which is when the game starts to suck.

I yearn for the day when an MMO will come out that lets me experience (and benefit from!) endgame PvE content without forcing me to group or raid.    A few games permit this somewhat (GW, CoH), but why do so many games make it so you can only get the best gear through grouping?

 

Again, I ask the question:  Why don't you just stop playing when you run out of things you like to do?  No game can be all things to all people.

I did stop play  WOW when I saw how retarded the endgame was gonna be. I'm glad some other people besides me notice how stupid raiding is and need for top gear. MMO games need to brinng back the fun and and social aspect of games. Which is why I fell in love with mmo games was cool to meet interesting people from all over and just have fun, not spending forever to do something.

Originally posted by SwampRob 

How about an MMO that offers me a way to progress my char through solo PvE?   You know, like I was able to do for the 70 levels that got me here?

 

Wait, you mean you want to grind the same quests that you did for months to get to 70?   Let's face it.  You beat the game.  It has to end somewhere, and for you, it ended when you hit 70.   Wait for the expansion and play something else in the meantime.

Maybe you ought to try Oblivion., or one of those other MMOs out there with infinite content.

I love you Yunbei!  If I wasn't a heterosexual man I would have your babies! 

I jsut wholehearted agree with this post.  HOWVER, it is a very neccessary evil, because people pay $15 a month for gameplay, and when the content runs out they don't want to have their $15 wasted.  People also don't want to keep resuscribing.  Kids don't want to have to convince their parents again to renew the subscription, because their game got more stuff.  

So to keep people busy till the next big content patch are grinds and raids.

You forgot to mention some other bad things.  The extremely long raids that Blizzard has introduced.  You can no longer run a raid in one day, unless you plan to spend 6 hours doing so.  So most raids have to be devided up during the week.  The instance is set on a timer which will reset it for your character, and his teammates, within 1 week.  This may sound good but is has started something I can't stand.  SCHEDULING RAIDS ON FORUMS.

Scheduled raids squash out the casual players like me, who just hop in, join a guild group and raid something.  You can't do that now, you have to sign up for the raid at the guild forums.  You have to be present at a specific time.  Then, if possible, you have to be available for the second run to finish the raid you started within that week.  I don't have that kind of free time to schedule my gaming like that.

The need for items in large raids also produced ridiculous point systems setup by guilds.  So frequent raiders can save up points and use them to get the loot they want due to their "repeated" participation in raids.

Daily quest are pretty bad, but it is a much needed quick fix to general faction grinding.  At least things change a bit during a quest.  At least you can re experience some of your favorite type of quest as you burn time to gain gold or faction.  It is bad, but it is much more tolerable than just killing Timbermaul bears over and over.

What I do like, is the use of daily quest to help unlock server wide vendors and buffs.  the Sunwell content, was very fun as a server worked towards opening up special vendors and services b completely daily quest and running through the instances in the area.  Warhammer's whole system is somewhat based on this.  Their public quest are basically daily quest that you repeat every 10 minutes to earn faction points.

Edit:  I forgot to mention that in a 40 man raid, only 5 people are doing anything of significance.  the rest are mindless drones pressing 2 buttons when told to.

Almost every MMO that is P2P has grind. I should say every, because I still have to find the first P2P MMO that doesn't have grind.

MMO executives care about 1 thing, it's called MONEY. They will make you grind so you keep paying the bill. It's addictive. If you can't controll it you should play single player games until you can.