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9/05/08 10:23:09 PM#121
Originally posted by GrandAm
I would like to go even further (this is the post where I try to bash you on the head to get you to my way of thinking, although I don't expect it to work). I will use an analogy. 1. One month of sub time in SWG = one night stay at hotel. 2. The TCG = blackjack (from now on BJ) 3. The podracer loot card reward = money won at BJ as a reward. 4. The nightly stay "free" $20 BJ play coupon = "free" TCG card pack given monthly for SWG sub. OK so you decide you want to spend three days in Las Vegas. Not to gamble mind you. You have heard of all the shows, roller coasters, and dining they have from the Travel Channel. You heard the Luxor was nice so you go to their website and see in the reservation area a promo of free $20 BJ coupon for each night you stay. You think "wow, free BJ what a deal!" You book your room and head off to Vegas. After arriving at the hotel you check in, receive your coupon, and dump your bags in your room. You rush down casino level for lunch to experience some of the dining Vegas has to offer. As you walk through the casino to get lunch you see BJ tables and everyone there is having a really good time. You only noticed them because you have that "free" BJ coupon in your pocket. You decide to use it because a "free" BJ never hurt anyone. As you sit down you place the coupon on the table in the betting ring, as they aren't going to change it to chips you can just get up with and go cash out. No it almost seems as if they want you to play for some reason. You are dealt cards and you stand on 18 and the dealer busts with 24. YOU WON!!! How exciting. But you are not there to gamble so you take your now "free" $40 in chips and cash them out. Instead of a burger you get the surf and turf platter, ON THE HOUSE you think to yourself. You spend the day doing whatever other than gambling. You are a winner. The next day you see another coupon slid under your door for another "free" $20 BJ. You say awsome because yesterday you were a winner. You hit the casino and spot a table with people with large stacks of chips.This is a hot table. You sit and do as before but this time the dealer has 20 to your 19. You lose. You see another player had made BJ and won. You pause and think well I'm up $40 from yesterday. I'll play that $40 and if I lose I haven't lost anything anyway. You lose it. Then it occurs to you that forty went to lunch the day before. I should win my money back. Besides others here are winning big. After rationalising it you pull a Cnote and get more chips. Not really gambling enough in you life to know a good bet or at least minimize loss you continue to play BJ incorrectly and swiftly lose your money. Frustrated you leave. But it nags at you all day. Since the loss of money you didn't intend to lose or rather the not winning of money you intended to win, nothing else is giving you full enjoyment. You are distracted by not getting what you think you should. Later you try again with $200 to win back your losses but again the cards were not in your favor. You give up and write it off. The next morning you see another coupon. You decide that since you wrote off the events of the day before, it no longer matters. So it couldn't hurt to play for free, win or lose I'll walk away you tell yourself. You play, this time you win a hand. Cool you are a winner again. My luck has changed. Maybe while I'm hot I can quickly win back my losses. $200 from your wallet lands next to your winnings. You win cool. I'm almost where I was at when I started. One more win and I will be way ahead. You let the bet ride and you lose. From here you may call it quits and move on or you may keep going to get the big win to find you can no longer afford six months of house payments. The point is this. SOE is not giving you those free card packs monthly because they like or appreciate you as a customer. They give them for the same reasons casinos give BJ coupons. It is to keep you interested in getting the big win, the uber loot card for an uber in game item. The pod racer a person may desperately want is only available in game from these loot cards. Even if a small few wins them for "free," most will not. The most who won't see them, get jealous, and resolve the fact that the most likely way to get one is to buy more card packs for the added chance of winning one. Just like the tourist that gets a "free" Bj roll sees the people around win, never sees the other people lose, gets jealous of their successes, is emotionally attached to the win i.e money i.e. podracer, and will start bleeding money to the table for it. There are people in this game that are going to pay to gamble for the loot card of their choice because every one they see in game their mind will say if they can win it so can I. But they are too impatient for the monthly packs to come out or lose faith because the last two months yielded nothing and feel they must take matters into their hands. The moment anyone pays to receive a reward given randomly after they pay. THEY ARE GAMBLING. You may be satisfied waiting monthly for a card pack, others won't be. Just like you may be satified with the $20 BJ coupon win or lose and won't add more from your pocket. Others will. The casinos know it. SOE knows it. As pointed out in another thread these card packs are all virtual and are intangible. You can't let them sit in a closet and play it again in ten years for nostalgia. This TCG is tied into SWG so tightly they act as coupons in game. If SWG ever shuts down for whatever reason, so will this game. Especially if all the TCG's revenue comes from SWG players willing to gamble on loot cards dropping. You won't even get to have the cards in your hands to feel in the real world and play again. This is the worst kind of scam. RMT is bad enough becuase the virtual item can diappear if the game shuts down or if a new card is made making it obsulete. This is a RM(G) that can end in the same result. Except in RMT an item that costs $10 costs $10. Here you can spend and spend waitng for random chance to hit. At least in Vegas there is a Gaming Commision to regulate the casinos. If the casino cheats or changes rules/odds without notifying the public they can have there license pulled. Here, SOE has no oversight. They can change the droprate anytime. They can make it near impossible to get and have people pay them for it. Enough /rantOff Thank you, thank you, thank you. This is exactly what I've been trying to point out. I don't know if you just communicate it better, or if some people don't want to understand. The "free" loot cards work in exactly the same way as the blackjack coupon. They serve to entice people to gamble for a chance to get the reward sooner or in tradeable form. Also for those that would have called it quits because of bugs, low populations or what have you, some may be enticed to stay and pay subscription fees for the chance to get the "free" card they're hoping for. Also, regarding Obraik's comments. I'm not ignoring that some monthly cards are free. I've described the loot cards as enticing people to pay more than they would otherwise, not forcing them to. If that doesn't make sense, please see the blackjack coupon example again; that is exactly what I'm talking about. I've also never denied that there are still some opportunities for players to interact. I've just said, accurately, that these opportunities have been reduced by SOE's changes to core game systems. Even with the RE system, the game used to have many more interdependent professions with a crafting based economy. New loot schematics now would have further increased interaction, and could have been included in the service provided for the subscription fee. SOE chose to implement a gambling system instead of this other method that was the norm in the early stages of the game. I acknowledge that free "coupons" are provided as part of the gambling system, but this doesn't change the fact that a gambling system has been introduced, and that players are enticed to participate by its design. It also doesn't change the fact that the gambling system is, unlike other "official" gambling venues, completed unregulated. P.S. Thanks again GrandAm. If anyone doesn't understand your very clear example, I'll conclude that it isn't because they can't, it's because they won't. |
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9/06/08 4:04:19 PM#122
I understand that the people against the card game think that people can't think for themselfs and are compelled to purchase additional booster packs to get "an advantage" over other players. Because I know that whenever I see a sith speeder or Podracer I feel some urge to spend hundreds of dollars to get a chance to be with the cool school crowd........................................
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9/06/08 4:47:40 PM#123
Originally posted by Gutboy Well that's the idea...now go out and give SOE more of your hard earned money! |
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9/06/08 5:22:52 PM#124
Originally posted by pdxgeek Well that's the idea...now go out and give SOE more of your hard earned money! It does seem to be the design, I agree. However, most people in my experience won't fall for a scam like this, if they see it coming. I have to think that's why SOE marketters are trying so hard to hide the gambling element connected with the loot cards. I have great confidence that informed consumers will make wise decisions. However, as with other gambling opportunities, there will be a few that have a weakness. We all have them in one way or another. For these few, the design of the loot card game will be especially enticing. Some have already reported losing hundreds. These two paragraphs taken together are what I'm really saying. I have to say that the other poster's attempt to paraphrase my position just ended up twisting the meaning rather badly. This is a critique of a new game system that seems much more $OE friendly than it is player friendly, not a criticism of players, at all. |
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9/06/08 9:26:59 PM#125
Originally posted by ArcAngel3 It does seem to be the design, I agree. However, most people in my experience won't fall for a scam like this, if they see it coming. I have to think that's why SOE marketters are trying so hard to hide the gambling element connected with the loot cards. I have great confidence that informed consumers will make wise decisions. However, as with other gambling opportunities, there will be a few that have a weakness. We all have them in one way or another. For these few, the design of the loot card game will be especially enticing. Some have already reported losing hundreds. These two paragraphs taken together are what I'm really saying. I have to say that the other poster's attempt to paraphrase my position just ended up twisting the meaning rather badly. This is a critique of a new game system that seems much more $OE friendly than it is player friendly, not a criticism of players, at all.
First off ArcAngel in response to your response to the response of someone else's response to Oraik's response...yeeshh...where I used BJ as an analogy. You are welcome, welcome, welcome. Gutboy, please don't misunderstand. I don't support the way this card game is implemented, true. But even in this form I don't want people to not enjoy it. Life is about finding joy. If you or anyone else enjoys this TCG and SWG please do so. If it's fun for you, I say keep doing it. I don't think it is a waste of your time or money to do so. And contrary to your statements about people involved with this game(s) can't think for themselves. You are wrong, I think most every person that plays or supports this game can and do think for themselves. The only thing here is you have a different opinion than mine. I respect that and your opinion. I am only here discuss share why my opinion differs or is the same as someone else's. Just because there is a gambling element does't by default mean it is evil. Fact is almost everything we do is a gamble in some way shape or form. You gamble evey time you drive your car that a drunk driver doesn't hit you. Same with eating at the "Roach Coach" that you won't get food poisoning. Buying a "pets.com" stock share in 1999. The only real issue I have is with potential abuses. I see mainly two. First abuse is a minor without clear understanding of the concepts of gambling uses their parents credit card information already logged into Station's database and burns up a crazy insano charge. This could result in many things as a negative. The least being the kid is punished by the parents not allowing the SWG sub any more. At worst the parent recognises the relationship this system has to gambling and brings this to what ever governing body is willing to listen. Second and most disturbing for potential abuse is this turns out to be really successful and generates mass profits for SOE. This is bad because other game companies will follow it. Soon the only way to get the tools ncessary to be successful in any game will be to wait for "free" packs to give that tool or spend the money "optionaly" to buy extra packs to increase the RANDOM chance of receiving the item. Recognizing this potentional is IMO something all MMORPG players should do as consumers. If these abuses happen it affects even supporters of SWG in a negative way. Which is...SWG is not going to be here forever. If this practice persists and gains popularity buy producers whatever game you may want to play may use it. Instead of paying a flat rate and every one is on equal footing. You will be competing with people that are willing to spend more on a gamble. They may win the first time. You may have to buy six card packs to win that tool to compete with. The same tool that you paid six times as much for in RL money than the other guy. Again this is on a future game, not the present SWG. You don't have to agree with anything I wrote here or before. I respect your opinion and you. I hope you feel the same. Also Gutboy I noticed in your response it seems that people criticizing the TCG meant I and others felt the current player base can't think for themselves. Again couldn't be further from the truth at least from me. I also noticed that my argument of it being a gambling system was not directly disagreed with. Could you please reread my posts and for the sake of good discussion state whether or not you feel there is a gambling system in this TCG in relation to its impact on SWG. If you feel there is none can you at least understand why I do based on what I have written? Thanks. "Suddenly, thousands of Trekies whose heads are full of facts of things like the stardate when the Cardassians farted on Deep Space nine are irrlelevant." - hardcoremoviecritic |
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9/07/08 12:46:59 AM#126
As I recall, in the beginning of SWG they told us that we could become Jedi, when actually we couldn't yet.
So what's to stop them from doing the same type of thing with the cards. Maybe they have a highly sought after loot card that they forget to make one month. What if SOE 'stacks the deck' against the players? And how would we ever even know, without spending tons of money.
I think they need to be regulated just like other gambling institutions.
Atleast if they had a SWG item shop, you could just spend a buck or two to get what you wanted. |
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9/07/08 2:29:56 AM#127
Originally posted by Terranah
I agree this should be regulated by an independent institution. But there is no governing body that sees this as gambling. Mainly because if you win you are not receiving money as a reward. You are receiving a product...an intangible virtual product at that. Plus this is kind of breaking new ground, cyberspace and all. The focus shouldn't be on the outcome reward to define it as gambling. It should focus on if RL money is paid for a random chance of a reward, what ever the form. Don't get me wrong, I like to gamble and have seen many casinos in my day. I see nothing wrong with this as a legitimate way to do business. But there has to be oversight of some kind. People also have to know the true odds of winning any one card in a game pack. Purchased or not. SOE needs to post these odds on the TCG site. And not change the odds without notifying the public. Plus invite a third party independent watch dog to ensure they are accurrate. Look at the annual Monopoly game at McDonald's. They give away prizes like $1mil, a PS3 (yeeshhh), and Huffy bicycles (double yeeshh). Read the fine print on the game pamphlet. They give the odds. That way they don't get in trouble. They also have the NO PURCHASE NECESSARY to play clause. You just have to mail a self addressed stamped envelope to their address, wait two weeks for the round trip to get a game piece. They do that so it can't be called gambling in a court. But it still is because most people aren't going to do the hassle for free. They are going to buy that BigMac meal. The meal they paid money for to get game pieces to randomly receive a reward. Sodas, cereals, condoms etc... have these same gambling contests too. But in the fine print the odds are all there. They have the NPN clause because years ago someone said it is gambling ( I suspect). EDIT: Also all it will take is one parent who's kid spent hundreds to tell Tipper Gore (triple yeeshhh) and she starts running around like Mrs. Reverend Lovejoy screaming "Won't somebody think of the children!" and this will bring SOEs model down faster then a $5 hooker. "Me so horny" - Two Live Crew "Suddenly, thousands of Trekies whose heads are full of facts of things like the stardate when the Cardassians farted on Deep Space nine are irrlelevant." - hardcoremoviecritic |
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9/07/08 8:58:51 PM#128
Originally posted by GrandAm
I would like to go even further (this is the post where I try to bash you on the head to get you to my way of thinking, although I don't expect it to work). I will use an analogy. 1. One month of sub time in SWG = one night stay at hotel. 2. The TCG = blackjack (from now on BJ) 3. The podracer loot card reward = money won at BJ as a reward. 4. The nightly stay "free" $20 BJ play coupon = "free" TCG card pack given monthly for SWG sub. This analogy doesn't really work. Point 3 would be equal to winning some item for the hotel (heh, maybe an extra pillow?). You don't need to play the TCG (or, black jack in your example) to get the loot rewards, you simply need to redeem the pack (whatever the equiv is for that in black jack, I've never played it). Getting more opportunities to get the loot cards would be like buying more of the play coupons and redeeming them - but you wouldn't need to play the actual game.
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9/07/08 9:32:04 PM#129
Originally posted by Obraik
I would like to go even further (this is the post where I try to bash you on the head to get you to my way of thinking, although I don't expect it to work). I will use an analogy. 1. One month of sub time in SWG = one night stay at hotel. 2. The TCG = blackjack (from now on BJ) 3. The podracer loot card reward = money won at BJ as a reward. 4. The nightly stay "free" $20 BJ play coupon = "free" TCG card pack given monthly for SWG sub. This analogy doesn't really work. Point 3 would be equal to winning some item for the hotel (heh, maybe an extra pillow?). You don't need to play the TCG (or, black jack in your example) to get the loot rewards, you simply need to redeem the pack (whatever the equiv is for that in black jack, I've never played it). Getting more opportunities to get the loot cards would be like buying more of the play coupons and redeeming them - but you wouldn't need to play the actual game.
Obraik, For the sake of good discussion I will concede your point that a person can still receive and use loot cards in SWG and not actually play the TCG. Good job. But answer this, does that invalidate my whole analogy. Yes the dynamic between SWG and TCG is different than BJ. BJ does not have a third party dynamic to it. I mainly used BJ as an example as most people that have visited casinos understand the obvious gambling involved. As far as point three. The point of that is reward = money. Not necessarily an item. Items are rewards, so is money. Now please read this quote I wrote in my original analogy "The moment anyone pays to receive a reward given randomly after they pay. THEY ARE GAMBLING." As objectively as you can (forget SWG and TCG, I mean as in life in general) read the statement, does it accruately describe a gambling system? If not cool. If yes, can you see If only one person pays looking for a specific rewarded loot card, leaving it up to random chance by buying a card pack not knowing what's inside and only finds out afier the money is gone, isn't that gambling? Again I gamble all the time. This as a model system is not inherently evil and me disliking SOE has nothing to do with it. This could be "Hello Kitty Online" we are talking about here. Thanks for the concession on the gum thing. I do think you present valid arguments for disscussion. "Suddenly, thousands of Trekies whose heads are full of facts of things like the stardate when the Cardassians farted on Deep Space nine are irrlelevant." - hardcoremoviecritic |
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9/07/08 9:53:37 PM#130
Originally posted by GrandAm
I agree this should be regulated by an independent institution. But there is no governing body that sees this as gambling. Mainly because if you win you are not receiving money as a reward. You are receiving a product...an intangible virtual product at that. Plus this is kind of breaking new ground, cyberspace and all. The focus shouldn't be on the outcome reward to define it as gambling. It should focus on if RL money is paid for a random chance of a reward, what ever the form. Don't get me wrong, I like to gamble and have seen many casinos in my day. I see nothing wrong with this as a legitimate way to do business. But there has to be oversight of some kind. People also have to know the true odds of winning any one card in a game pack. Purchased or not. SOE needs to post these odds on the TCG site. And not change the odds without notifying the public. Plus invite a third party independent watch dog to ensure they are accurrate. Look at the annual Monopoly game at McDonald's. They give away prizes like $1mil, a PS3 (yeeshhh), and Huffy bicycles (double yeeshh). Read the fine print on the game pamphlet. They give the odds. That way they don't get in trouble. They also have the NO PURCHASE NECESSARY to play clause. You just have to mail a self addressed stamped envelope to their address, wait two weeks for the round trip to get a game piece. They do that so it can't be called gambling in a court. But it still is because most people aren't going to do the hassle for free. They are going to buy that BigMac meal. The meal they paid money for to get game pieces to randomly receive a reward. Sodas, cereals, condoms etc... have these same gambling contests too. But in the fine print the odds are all there. They have the NPN clause because years ago someone said it is gambling ( I suspect). EDIT: Also all it will take is one parent who's kid spent hundreds to tell Tipper Gore (triple yeeshhh) and she starts running around like Mrs. Reverend Lovejoy screaming "Won't somebody think of the children!" and this will bring SOEs model down faster then a $5 hooker. "Me so horny" - Two Live Crew Heh, GrandAm just posted at the same time as me, and his is better lol, so I scrapped mine. I'm just going to listen to the ongoing, excellent dialogue, and hope to learn something :)
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9/07/08 10:48:49 PM#131
Originally posted by GrandAm This analogy doesn't really work. Point 3 would be equal to winning some item for the hotel (heh, maybe an extra pillow?). You don't need to play the TCG (or, black jack in your example) to get the loot rewards, you simply need to redeem the pack (whatever the equiv is for that in black jack, I've never played it). Getting more opportunities to get the loot cards would be like buying more of the play coupons and redeeming them - but you wouldn't need to play the actual game.
Obraik, For the sake of good discussion I will concede your point that a person can still receive and use loot cards in SWG and not actually play the TCG. Good job. But answer this, does that invalidate my whole analogy. Yes the dynamic between SWG and TCG is different than BJ. BJ does not have a third party dynamic to it. I mainly used BJ as an example as most people that have visited casinos understand the obvious gambling involved. As far as point three. The point of that is reward = money. Not necessarily an item. Items are rewards, so is money. Now please read this quote I wrote in my original analogy "The moment anyone pays to receive a reward given randomly after they pay. THEY ARE GAMBLING." As objectively as you can (forget SWG and TCG, I mean as in life in general) read the statement, does it accruately describe a gambling system? If not cool. If yes, can you see If only one person pays looking for a specific rewarded loot card, leaving it up to random chance by buying a card pack not knowing what's inside and only finds out afier the money is gone, isn't that gambling? Again I gamble all the time. This as a model system is not inherently evil and me disliking SOE has nothing to do with it. This could be "Hello Kitty Online" we are talking about here. Thanks for the concession on the gum thing. I do think you present valid arguments for disscussion. My change to point 3 is based on that the loot cards aren't related to the actual TCG, the rewards you get don't contribute to the TCG at all. In your analogy, the rewards were being used for your substitute of the TCG (Blackjack) - for the analogy to have been correct the rewards would need to directly influence your hotel room (SWG) with no interaction to Blackjack (the TCG). My disagreement in this case isn't because it's SWG but because you're analogy didn't fit :) Personally, I don't see it as any different to cereal box promotions, retail store competitions (buy products and have a chance at winning other stuff, etc). Interestingly, there's a promo going on with a cereal (Weet-Bix) here where you get random playing cards in the box that you can then use to enter a code into a online card game based around the All Blacks rugby team and use your cards to play against other teams. Naturally, certain players from the team are rarer and will help improve your chances of winning the game and there are rewards given out for participating.
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Soupgoblin
 Novice Member
Joined: 4/30/05
A mind is like a parachute, it only works when it is OPEN. - |
9/07/08 11:55:13 PM#132
After reading a large amount of the posts in this thread with folks wondering WHY SWG is in the state it is, I have to make a comment. I played for almost a year (pre-NGE and one month after), it was the most fun I ever had in an MMO, the diversity in abilities, not being shoved into a class I may or may not like , entertainers, I was on my way to becoming force sensetive... but that was then. Now, people are wondering why it seems that SOE isn't making any attempt at cutting overhead by shutting down servers and consolidating populations on the more populated servers, they wonder why SOE still charges for a character to move from one server to another, they wonder why instead of fixing issues, the devs create a stinking card game that needs RL money to get decent cards. I may have an answer, but you won't like it... SOE is soaking you poor saps for all it can, they are doing this because they are losing the Star Wars IP in 2009 and are trying to make a last minute cash grab. SWG will die next year, not sure which month. The reason that Bioware has not made an OFFICIAL announcement abot the KOTORO game is because they are waiting to obtain the IP next year before speaking about it They can't OFFICIALY say anything until the IP is theirs (legal issues). I myself mourn the game that SWG was and I feel bad for the folks who stuck it out hoping things might get better, because it won't. SOE has made some very lousey decisions with the game and have proven to everyone who is a Star Wars fan that they no longer deserve to use the Star Wars IP. SWG will die next year, but Bioware is a good company and the will do a better job with the IP than SOE did. |
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9/08/08 12:08:20 AM#133
Quoted from Obraik "My change to point 3 is based on that the loot cards aren't related to the actual TCG, the rewards you get don't contribute to the TCG at all. In your analogy, the rewards were being used for your substitute of the TCG (Blackjack) - for the analogy to have been correct the rewards would need to directly influence your hotel room (SWG) with no interaction to Blackjack (the TCG). My disagreement in this case isn't because it's SWG but because you're analogy didn't fit :) Personally, I don't see it as any different to cereal box promotions, retail store competitions (buy products and have a chance at winning other stuff, etc). Interestingly, there's a promo going on with a cereal (Weet-Bix) here where you get random playing cards in the box that you can then use to enter a code into a online card game based around the All Blacks rugby team and use your cards to play against other teams. Naturally, certain players from the team are rarer and will help improve your chances of winning the game and there are rewards given out for participating." Good the quote tower is gone. OK back to disscussion. Obraik, I concede that my analogy is not perfect and may not be held as valid. Instead I will now say it is only a hint for the way I perceive the disscussion as opposed to this analogy is a comparable fact. Truth is I am having a hard time coming up with a better analogy because you are right. The third party element does make it difficult to compare with something else that would widely be considered gambling. Good Job!. I do feel some headway has been made here. You said you see it no different than contests on Weet-Bix cereal. We agree. I see no difference either. I live in the U.S. Here when products offer "contests" in the fine print here in the U.S. they post all the odds for each reward to be given. What keeps this "contest" from being considered gambling in our courts is the No Pruchase Ness. clause also in the fine print. Please read my post #127 in this thread for more details, especially the NPN is such a hassle no one does it. Now for the sake of disscussion, on the below points I was really hoping for a more direct response to the questions in them like yes, no or "I can see how you feel that way but I disagree." Now please read this quote I wrote in my original analogy "The moment anyone pays to receive a reward given randomly after they pay. THEY ARE GAMBLING." As objectively as you can (forget SWG and TCG, I mean as in life in general) read the statement, does it accruately describe a gambling system? If not cool. If yes, can you see If only one person pays looking for a specific rewarded loot card, leaving it up to random chance by buying a card pack not knowing what's inside and only finds out afier the money is gone, isn't that gambling? There is a reason why I would like a more direct response. It has to do with an argument I will put forth in another post. And believe it or not it kind of supports this business model. Also to compare my definition with here is websters... gambling gamble[1,verb]
Main Entry: 1gam·ble http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gambling My definition may not be exact if used in a court of law, but common sense wise, what do you think? EDIT: I just reread what you posted and something struck me rather odd... "My change to point 3 is based on that the loot cards aren't related to the actual TCG, the rewards you get don't contribute to the TCG at all......." If the loot cards don't contribute or are not related to the TCG...what do you suppose their intended purpose is for?... Unless of course you were paraphrasing my statement and I am to dense to see that. Either way do the loot cards serve a purpose in the TCG? EDIT to follow up my previous edit. No...I reread the posts and I don't think you were paraphrasing something I wrote. In fact you used "My change" the operative word "My" in that statement you made, as in coming from you. It can't be a paraphrase. If that's the case, what is their purpose if they don't relate to the TCG? And no I am not trying to be blithe, you just said something I need clarification on. Thanks. "Suddenly, thousands of Trekies whose heads are full of facts of things like the stardate when the Cardassians farted on Deep Space nine are irrlelevant." - hardcoremoviecritic |
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9/08/08 2:40:28 PM#134
Originally posted by Soupgoblin I have to say, this thought crossed my mind as well. SOE could have introduced new content with ingame incentives like short-term buffs and new vechicle schematics. This would add value to the current subscription, add enjoyable content, add rewards for completing the content, and increase player interaction. All very nice, very player friendly, and very good for long-term growth. Instead, they introduced a loot card system that has you waiting months to get desirable loot, or paying real money for only a chance to get it. This is less player friendly, and less consistent with a long-term growth strategy. It looks entirely like a very short-term cash grab that hurts the game and further paints SOE as caring solely about customers' visa cards, not about the customers themselves, or their experience. I'm not making any shut-down predictions, and I never have, but this current move is certainly more consistent with a desire to rapidly maximize short-term gain at the expense of long-term growth. |
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Soupgoblin
Novice Member
Joined: 4/30/05
A mind is like a parachute, it only works when it is OPEN. - |
9/08/08 4:55:33 PM#135
Originally posted by ArcAngel3
I heard the news from a friend who works for a developer (I cannot say who since I don't want to get him canned). Since we all know that Bioware is working on an on-line SW game and hasn't made an official announcement yet, SWG seems to be in "light maintenance" mode (not to mention that SOE utterly detests it's own customers), and Lucas Arts will not allow two companies to use their IP at the same time, I feel that what he told me was the truth. I wish I was wrong and SWG could get better, but logic tells me that SOE is just waiting until the IP slips from their grasp, all the while gathering as much cash as they can get from the customer. I don't hate SOE, but I do not trust them, either. |
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9/08/08 6:40:00 PM#136
Originally posted by GrandAm Here in New Zealand, there is no such requirement that the odds of a competition be posted (as far as I'm aware at least, I've never seen such things listed in contest rules). I'll concede that those purely buying packs of cards in hopes of getting cards could be stretched to gambling but any competition can be "abused" this way. Personally, if you're someone that would go out and do that when you know you don't have the cash then you deserve to lose your money/credit card - I have no sympathy for that. Playing the TCG however, is not gambling at all. What are the loot cards for? IMO, to get people that play SWG interested in giving the TCG a try, since you have to go into the TCG client to get the loot cards. If the intention of them was purely to get people in SWG to pay for loot cards then there would be no free packs.
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9/08/08 9:54:10 PM#137
Originally posted by Obraik Here in New Zealand, there is no such requirement that the odds of a competition be posted (as far as I'm aware at least, I've never seen such things listed in contest rules). I'll concede that those purely buying packs of cards in hopes of getting cards could be stretched to gambling but any competition can be "abused" this way. Personally, if you're someone that would go out and do that when you know you don't have the cash then you deserve to lose your money/credit card - I have no sympathy for that. Playing the TCG however, is not gambling at all. What are the loot cards for? IMO, to get people that play SWG interested in giving the TCG a try, since you have to go into the TCG client to get the loot cards. If the intention of them was purely to get people in SWG to pay for loot cards then there would be no free packs.
Thanks for the concession that even though for most this system is not a problem, but for at a silly few this could be a problem, even if it is a stretch to call it gambling. I agree any "ism" whether called a contest, sweepstakes, competion, or gambling can be abused if it is based on a random chance or contingency. Whether it is free or something paid for to receive that chance. I also agree it is a person's individual responsibily when making a decision and their responsibility accept the rewards and consequences of their choices. I have no sympathy for them as well. Although I will still empathize with their situation if they want someone to listen. I won't get invovled, just listen. Loot cards are there to spark interest from SWG to the TCG, I agree they serve that purpose. Maybe even the main purpose. But other purposes may also exist with it. The idea that no free cards would be given away for free if the idea is to get people to play, this is where we still differ and that is OK. There are many contests, promos, competitions, sweepstakes, and obvious gambling venues that give away stuff for free to entice people to pay for more or something else associated with it. I live in Arizona. You can buy guns here like they were baked beans. Often they advertise free ammo with purchase of gun. Knowing full well after the gun is purchased more ammo will be purchased. You may only feel it is to get SWG players to try and spend money for the card game. I submit it is to get SWG players to get hooked on the idea of ingame loot coming from cards. After all if it was just to get people to try the TCG they only have to give free TCG cards to players. They don't need to have a loot card. The same TCG cards they give away as well already at the moment. Plus even though it is free the way you play, it is a 30 day spread between free comes again. Many will not be patient. In the second paragraph of your ressponse you did say playing the TCG is not gambling at all. I agree in a common sense sort of way just as kids that buy baseball cards buy a pack hoping to get their favorite player. But buy websters definition it is. And I was saying it was gambling with its dynamic with SWG and its loot card rewards. I will write a post and start a new thread. I will propose an argument that it is in everyones best interest to acknowledge this system is gambling. Especially for those that enjoy and support these games. It will be very long citing examples with links. I know you can't wait. Thanks for the disscussion as a gentleman Obraik and cheers. "Suddenly, thousands of Trekies whose heads are full of facts of things like the stardate when the Cardassians farted on Deep Space nine are irrlelevant." - hardcoremoviecritic |
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9/08/08 9:58:34 PM#138
Originally posted by Obraik This analogy doesn't really work. Point 3 would be equal to winning some item for the hotel (heh, maybe an extra pillow?). You don't need to play the TCG (or, black jack in your example) to get the loot rewards, you simply need to redeem the pack (whatever the equiv is for that in black jack, I've never played it). Getting more opportunities to get the loot cards would be like buying more of the play coupons and redeeming them - but you wouldn't need to play the actual game.
Obraik, For the sake of good discussion I will concede your point that a person can still receive and use loot cards in SWG and not actually play the TCG. Good job. But answer this, does that invalidate my whole analogy. Yes the dynamic between SWG and TCG is different than BJ. BJ does not have a third party dynamic to it. I mainly used BJ as an example as most people that have visited casinos understand the obvious gambling involved. As far as point three. The point of that is reward = money. Not necessarily an item. Items are rewards, so is money. Now please read this quote I wrote in my original analogy "The moment anyone pays to receive a reward given randomly after they pay. THEY ARE GAMBLING." As objectively as you can (forget SWG and TCG, I mean as in life in general) read the statement, does it accruately describe a gambling system? If not cool. If yes, can you see If only one person pays looking for a specific rewarded loot card, leaving it up to random chance by buying a card pack not knowing what's inside and only finds out afier the money is gone, isn't that gambling? Again I gamble all the time. This as a model system is not inherently evil and me disliking SOE has nothing to do with it. This could be "Hello Kitty Online" we are talking about here. Thanks for the concession on the gum thing. I do think you present valid arguments for disscussion. My change to point 3 is based on that the loot cards aren't related to the actual TCG, the rewards you get don't contribute to the TCG at all. In your analogy, the rewards were being used for your substitute of the TCG (Blackjack) - for the analogy to have been correct the rewards would need to directly influence your hotel room (SWG) with no interaction to Blackjack (the TCG). My disagreement in this case isn't because it's SWG but because you're analogy didn't fit :) Personally, I don't see it as any different to cereal box promotions, retail store competitions (buy products and have a chance at winning other stuff, etc). Interestingly, there's a promo going on with a cereal (Weet-Bix) here where you get random playing cards in the box that you can then use to enter a code into a online card game based around the All Blacks rugby team and use your cards to play against other teams. Naturally, certain players from the team are rarer and will help improve your chances of winning the game and there are rewards given out for participating.
Unfortunately though Obraik this doesn't really make this game stink any less it just covers the scent with a perfume that ironically stinks almost as bad as the game by itself |
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9/08/08 11:40:49 PM#139
Originally posted by GrandAm
Thanks for the concession that even though for most this system is not a problem, but for at a silly few this could be a problem, even if it is a stretch to call it gambling. I agree any "ism" whether called a contest, sweepstakes, competion, or gambling can be abused if it is based on a random chance or contingency. Whether it is free or something paid for to receive that chance. I also agree it is a person's individual responsibily when making a decision and their responsibility accept the rewards and consequences of their choices. I have no sympathy for them as well. Although I will still empathize with their situation if they want someone to listen. I won't get invovled, just listen. Loot cards are there to spark interest from SWG to the TCG, I agree they serve that purpose. Maybe even the main purpose. But other purposes may also exist with it. The idea that no free cards would be given away for free if the idea is to get people to play, this is where we still differ and that is OK. There are many contests, promos, competitions, sweepstakes, and obvious gambling venues that give away stuff for free to entice people to pay for more or something else associated with it. I live in Arizona. You can buy guns here like they were baked beans. Often they advertise free ammo with purchase of gun. Knowing full well after the gun is purchased more ammo will be purchased. You may only feel it is to get SWG players to try and spend money for the card game. I submit it is to get SWG players to get hooked on the idea of ingame loot coming from cards. After all if it was just to get people to try the TCG they only have to give free TCG cards to players. They don't need to have a loot card. The same TCG cards they give away as well already at the moment. Plus even though it is free the way you play, it is a 30 day spread between free comes again. Many will not be patient. In the second paragraph of your ressponse you did say playing the TCG is not gambling at all. I agree in a common sense sort of way just as kids that buy baseball cards buy a pack hoping to get their favorite player. But buy websters definition it is. And I was saying it was gambling with its dynamic with SWG and its loot card rewards. I will write a post and start a new thread. I will propose an argument that it is in everyones best interest to acknowledge this system is gambling. Especially for those that enjoy and support these games. It will be very long citing examples with links. I know you can't wait. Thanks for the disscussion as a gentleman Obraik and cheers.
My thoughts are very similar to yours here GrandAm. The payment for the chance of winning loot is indeed a gambling component. (That is of course why gambling is often referred to as a "game of chance.") I also agree that the month waiting period for the free, no-trade cards, will serve to motivate people to take their chances with the booster packs, and more often than not pay cash and not get what they were hoping for. I also see important differences between this and things like cereal promotions. Cereal promotions are regulated, odds of winning are always published in my jurisdiction, and no purchase of anything at all is required to participate. None of these features, not even one, are applicable to the loot cards. As for having sympathy for people that get duped by this component into spending more than they wish they would have, well I have a few thoughts about that. First of all, I do believe in personal responsibility. Gamers are responsible for the financial decisions we make. If we're talking about minors, however, I think developmental issues need to be considered. At the same time, If SOE execs intentionally cooked up a gambling system with the intent of hooking vulnerable people and draining them of as much cash as possible, I would indeed take issue with that. Also, if they know it's a gambling system, but try to spin it as something else entirely, I would take issue with that. The one issue is premeditated exploitation. The other is deception by misdirection. Both are unethical behaviours that do not have consumers' best interest in mind at all. Other aspects of the card game don't seem to be a problem, and I hope they're fun for people. If I was going to buy booster packs for a card game though, and I do play one occasionally, I would want to actually own the cards. I would also want to know that the rules of the card game would not be changed part way through. With SOE's virtual cards, I know you don't own them, and I wouldn't be sure that they wouldn't change the rules as they go along. P.S. Looking forward to the new thread myself GrandAm, and I admire how you dialogue so respectfully and patiently with those who hold opposing viewpoints. I try, but sometimes get exasperated, and that probably comes through my tone, unfortunately. |
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9/09/08 1:14:56 AM#140
Originally posted by ArcAngel3
Thanks for the concession that even though for most this system is not a problem, but for at a silly few this could be a problem, even if it is a stretch to call it gambling. I agree any "ism" whether called a contest, sweepstakes, competion, or gambling can be abused if it is based on a random chance or contingency. Whether it is free or something paid for to receive that chance. I also agree it is a person's individual responsibily when making a decision and their responsibility accept the rewards and consequences of their choices. I have no sympathy for them as well. Although I will still empathize with their situation if they want someone to listen. I won't get invovled, just listen. Loot cards are there to spark interest from SWG to the TCG, I agree they serve that purpose. Maybe even the main purpose. But other purposes may also exist with it. The idea that no free cards would be given away for free if the idea is to get people to play, this is where we still differ and that is OK. There are many contests, promos, competitions, sweepstakes, and obvious gambling venues that give away stuff for free to entice people to pay for more or something else associated with it. I live in Arizona. You can buy guns here like they were baked beans. Often they advertise free ammo with purchase of gun. Knowing full well after the gun is purchased more ammo will be purchased. You may only feel it is to get SWG players to try and spend money for the card game. I submit it is to get SWG players to get hooked on the idea of ingame loot coming from cards. After all if it was just to get people to try the TCG they only have to give free TCG cards to players. They don't need to have a loot card. The same TCG cards they give away as well already at the moment. Plus even though it is free the way you play, it is a 30 day spread between free comes again. Many will not be patient. In the second paragraph of your ressponse you did say playing the TCG is not gambling at all. I agree in a common sense sort of way just as kids that buy baseball cards buy a pack hoping to get their favorite player. But buy websters definition it is. And I was saying it was gambling with its dynamic with SWG and its loot card rewards. I will write a post and start a new thread. I will propose an argument that it is in everyones best interest to acknowledge this system is gambling. Especially for those that enjoy and support these games. It will be very long citing examples with links. I know you can't wait. Thanks for the disscussion as a gentleman Obraik and cheers.
My thoughts are very similar to yours here GrandAm. The payment for the chance of winning loot is indeed a gambling component. (That is of course why gambling is often referred to as a "game of chance.") I also agree that the month waiting period for the free, no-trade cards, will serve to motivate people to take their chances with the booster packs, and more often than not pay cash and not get what they were hoping for. I also see important differences between this and things like cereal promotions. Cereal promotions are regulated, odds of winning are always published in my jurisdiction, and no purchase of anything at all is required to participate. None of these features, not even one, are applicable to the loot cards. As for having sympathy for people that get duped by this component into spending more than they wish they would have, well I have a few thoughts about that. First of all, I do believe in personal responsibility. Gamers are responsible for the financial decisions we make. If we're talking about minors, however, I think developmental issues need to be considered. At the same time, If SOE execs intentionally cooked up a gambling system with the intent of hooking vulnerable people and draining them of as much cash as possible, I would indeed take issue with that. Also, if they know it's a gambling system, but try to spin it as something else entirely, I would take issue with that. The one issue is premeditated exploitation. The other is deception by misdirection. Both are unethical behaviours that do not have consumers' best interest in mind at all. Other aspects of the card game don't seem to be a problem, and I hope they're fun for people. If I was going to buy booster packs for a card game though, and I do play one occasionally, I would want to actually own the cards. I would also want to know that the rules of the card game would not be changed part way through. With SOE's virtual cards, I know you don't own them, and I wouldn't be sure that they wouldn't change the rules as they go along. P.S. Looking forward to the new thread myself GrandAm, and I admire how you dialogue so respectfully and patiently with those who hold opposing viewpoints. I try, but sometimes get exasperated, and that probably comes through my tone, unfortunately.
Thanks ArchAngel I was not taken advantatage as true vets. If you have read some past posts of mine you would know where I come from. And my Ahole has had far less vasoline than any vet here. Why do I tend to side with them? Simple. Most vets have been able to cite what has happened with examples and such. There are some that resort to name calling. But most present well founded arguments. As well as many Pro SWG current players have. I respect any person here that presents a good discussion and lends their opinion in the name of good discussion whether they call themselves Obraik or Archangel or whatever. We don't have to see eye to eye and accept what each other says. We just have to try to understand why people disagree with us even if it it doesn't change our minds. I am sure you disagree with some things I have said. If so I appreciate the respect you have shown in discussion to me as well as Obraik who has shown respect to the discussion even though we ultimatley completely disagree. As far as my future post.... It may take awhile. Thanks to all for reading! "Suddenly, thousands of Trekies whose heads are full of facts of things like the stardate when the Cardassians farted on Deep Space nine are irrlelevant." - hardcoremoviecritic |
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