What you have to realize is that this game will always be balanced around group combat and not 1v1 fights.  Healers need to be hard to kill as they are almost always the first targets.  This is something that will always exist in this game.  The only adjustment I could see them ever making is lowering their dps slightly, while raising a class like the magus's survivability slightly.

Ohhhh I have an idea....

Why not take classes OUT entirely and make it skill based?

Seriously, if we're so worried about balance, then take the damn classes out and let the players choose what they want for themselves.

Oh what a sec. Thats too complicated for todays games, right? We're dumb idiots, we cant choose for ourselves

Lets not forget that he’s running with a little pet Rune Priest. That combo is a nasty one, and 1 or two tanks without any support are going to get owned... throw in a Destro healer or two and now you got a battle.

Its hard to tell but I think the RP is also throwing in some shots off screen too.

Most of those other clips Destro was a little outnumbered too.

1v1 match-ups, unless they are your polar opposite, are going to end in a decisive victory for one side. If a good cohesive group go at it they can really thrash the opposing side... even if outnumbered. Had that happen just last night, 5 on 9 and near the Order spawn so they had the advantage of quick post-death returns and our group held our ground for quite some time with no deaths (at least 3 rez rounds of Order before they got reinforcements).

-Phid

Originally posted by Ghost12

Ohhhh I have an idea....

Why not take classes OUT entirely and make it skill based?

Seriously, if we're so worried about balance, then take the damn classes out and let the players choose what they want for themselves.

Oh what a sec. Thats too complicated for todays games, right? We're dumb idiots, we cant choose for ourselves

I want a skill-based pvp sandbox just as much as the next guy, but the darkfall/earthrise forums are that way ->

Originally posted by TheArzhAngel

A caster / archmage standing face to face, whit tanks. And even taking some of then out ?????


Tell me is that how the rest of this story goes. Now casters not only own you if the have range, but allso in close combat ?????

http://files.filefront.com/Talvas+War+Previewwmv/;11587400;/fileinfo.html

Not playing the game but since you seem stuck with stereotypes then why would you want a high damge tank? I am guessing you want the best of both worlds? You seem happy to let one class stay "weak" as long as another gets their cake and eats it too.

It is my opinion that saying a game is balanced around group vs group and not 1v1, is a complete cop-out when talking about class balance. Sure the game is supposed to be played in groups, but what if you are and one player on the other team are the last two standing? its 1v1 then. You guys are still in groups, but everyone else is dead.

I'm not saying the game should be balanced around 1v1 instead of group vs. group, but  it seems to me that players automatically defend any kind of class imbalances by using the group vs group statement. In group vs group combat, there are so many variables in play it would be impossible to completely balance it. This is a good thing and a bad thing. Its great when you have two full groups on the field, but anything else and the slight imbalances will stand out.

Just my opinion really.

God, not another tank that thinks he should be invincible. All I saw was a well played arch mage killing obviously inexeperienced, lower level tanks. Seriously, of course mages can shoot at range. They do risk interuption though.

Originally posted by Palebane

It is my opinion that saying a game is balanced around group vs group and not 1v1, is a complete cop-out when talking about class balance. Sure the game is supposed to be played in groups, but what if you are and one player on the other team are the last two standing? its 1v1 then. You guys are still in groups, but everyone else is dead.

I'm not saying the game should be balanced around 1v1 instead of group vs. group, but  it seems to me that players automatically defend any kind of class imbalances by using the group vs group statement. In group vs group combat, there are so many variables in play it would be impossible to completely balance it. This is a good thing and a bad thing. Its great when you have two full groups on the field, but anything else and the slight imbalances will stand out.

Just my opinion really.

I agree 100%: It is also reflected in class composition, since it's literally impossible to guarantee that the fight will be fair unless every class composition is favorable, but that is at least ten times more complex than balancing 1v1, or even 2v2.

Originally posted by vernd

Okay, I see a couple things going on here. First, let me say this: "tank" is not a euphemism for "beat everyone solo."

1) He's a healer. He's wearing down his opponents through attrition, and by out-healing the low DPS on him. He's not doing extreme amounts of burst damage on anyone-- there's time for repeated exchange of blows. That's how healers have an advantage over classes that can't heal; they outlast them.

2) He's actually healing his teammates in PVP and you can see how effective that is when the group works together.

In short: looks fine to me.

 

Edit: also note that most of the opponents he goes 1v1 with are 4 levels lower than he is.

There is NO way on earth any game should allow a healer to do any kind of damage beyond SUPPORT damage.The healer in any traditional sense of the word "MMORPG" is just that a healer not a DD.Games should be trying to encourage teamwork not make every class able to solo,especially not the healer class witch is the main glue that holds a party together.

This is why  we have seen so much bickering already over healers not healing,they made them a DD solo class,very bad design.This is why MMORPG developers should stick to the old traditional design and quit trying to make MMO's into first person shooter/PVP games.

I don't blame the players for complaining about this ,they darn well should be,of course the selfish players who are rolling healer types will cry foul and NERF and say the developer ruined the game.The game should benefit all and encourage team play not selfish solo play,that's a perfect design for failure.

Lmao judging the game around lv 14 gameplay...

You guys do realise at lv 20ish every class can pick up skills that give -heals plus you get silence and stuns. As lv 32 WE in CB i was taking out lv 37 AMs in couple hits by stacking poisons, 3 sec silence and 3 sec stun + 50 percent all heal reduction. In fact the biggest complain was how quickly healers were dying in high tiers because of CC and minus heals.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by slippyC

Originally posted by CreepingDoom

Originally posted by slippyC

but people in general want to have a chance against someone else. 

 

 

Being outplayed doesn't mean the chance never existed, just that the player failed to grasp the opportunity for victory when it came.

Losing is part of the game, learn how to win, makes things alot more entertaining.

I don't prefer that style of gameplay. 

Being outplayed has nothing to do with it in a rock/paper/scissors setup.  It doesn't depend on you, it depends on a group, which they could have screwed up and not you.  Also under a good many circumstances you aren't going to have an optimal group to be balanced between healing, dps, tanking.

I prefer to win or lose on my own merits, not because the people to make a perfect group are unavailable(or just don't do what they need to be doing).  Not saying i don't screw up sometimes myself, but this kind of balance is bullshit imo.

Actually, this would reflect on the games DAOC  heritage. I recall the really good 8 mans would actually only fight with each other, and would only go out on a run when all of their cooldowns were off. 

This meant they would fight about 20 minutes, and sit for 30 min or so until everyone's cooldowns came back up.

As a team a single 8 man like this could easily destroy 3 or more pug or even guild groups without losing a man.

I expect to see the same precision arise in WAR if the mechanics allow for it.

Yep, I know...

I dispise this though, because that forces to have the perfect balance of classes within a group.  If it was more of a 1vs1 balance, then the other effect of it should be that the group make-up shouldn't matter as much.  Plus, when you actually do get in a 1vs1 it would be more about skill than the rock/paper/scissors formula.

I can't think of any class based RvR games that aren't rock/paper/scissors. 

Originally posted by slippyC

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by slippyC

Originally posted by CreepingDoom

Originally posted by slippyC

but people in general want to have a chance against someone else. 

 

 

Being outplayed doesn't mean the chance never existed, just that the player failed to grasp the opportunity for victory when it came.

Losing is part of the game, learn how to win, makes things alot more entertaining.

I don't prefer that style of gameplay. 

Being outplayed has nothing to do with it in a rock/paper/scissors setup.  It doesn't depend on you, it depends on a group, which they could have screwed up and not you.  Also under a good many circumstances you aren't going to have an optimal group to be balanced between healing, dps, tanking.

I prefer to win or lose on my own merits, not because the people to make a perfect group are unavailable(or just don't do what they need to be doing).  Not saying i don't screw up sometimes myself, but this kind of balance is bullshit imo.

Actually, this would reflect on the games DAOC  heritage. I recall the really good 8 mans would actually only fight with each other, and would only go out on a run when all of their cooldowns were off. 

This meant they would fight about 20 minutes, and sit for 30 min or so until everyone's cooldowns came back up.

As a team a single 8 man like this could easily destroy 3 or more pug or even guild groups without losing a man.

I expect to see the same precision arise in WAR if the mechanics allow for it.

 

Yep, I know...

I dispise this though, because that forces to have the perfect balance of classes within a group.  If it was more of a 1vs1 balance, then the other effect of it should be that the group make-up shouldn't matter as much.  Plus, when you actually do get in a 1vs1 it would be more about skill than the rock/paper/scissors formula.

I can't think of any class based RvR games that aren't rock/paper/scissors. 

Once again i am saying this this is tier 1-2 gameplay. Once melee gets CC, -heals  and silence they will shred thru healers (ranged casters atleast get multiple roots) . Pretty much tier3-4 scens where all about ranged dps there was very little healing at all heck i topped the healing and dps chart couple times with my lv 33 sorc in the prague scens in CB (abosrb viitality :p).

Originally posted by Wizardry

Originally posted by vernd

Okay, I see a couple things going on here. First, let me say this: "tank" is not a euphemism for "beat everyone solo."

1) He's a healer. He's wearing down his opponents through attrition, and by out-healing the low DPS on him. He's not doing extreme amounts of burst damage on anyone-- there's time for repeated exchange of blows. That's how healers have an advantage over classes that can't heal; they outlast them.

2) He's actually healing his teammates in PVP and you can see how effective that is when the group works together.

In short: looks fine to me.

 

Edit: also note that most of the opponents he goes 1v1 with are 4 levels lower than he is.

There is NO way on earth any game should allow a healer to do any kind of damage beyond SUPPORT damage.The healer in any traditional sense of the word "MMORPG" is just that a healer not a DD.Games should be trying to encourage teamwork not make every class able to solo,especially not the healer class witch is the main glue that holds a party together.

This is why  we have seen so much bickering already over healers not healing,they made them a DD solo class,very bad design.This is why MMORPG developers should stick to the old traditional design and quit trying to make MMO's into first person shooter/PVP games.

I don't blame the players for complaining about this ,they darn well should be,of course the selfish players who are rolling healer types will cry foul and NERF and say the developer ruined the game.The game should benefit all and encourage team play not selfish solo play,that's a perfect design for failure.

 

Yeah man because he was doing absolutely sick damage, right? Out of all the fights in that video, how many players did he actually kill on his own? Did you even watch the video at all?

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Originally posted by Wizardry

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Originally posted by vernd

Okay, I see a couple things going on here. First, let me say this: "tank" is not a euphemism for "beat everyone solo."
1) He's a healer. He's wearing down his opponents through attrition, and by out-healing the low DPS on him. He's not doing extreme amounts of burst damage on anyone-- there's time for repeated exchange of blows. That's how healers have an advantage over classes that can't heal; they outlast them.
2) He's actually healing his teammates in PVP and you can see how effective that is when the group works together.
In short: looks fine to me.
 
Edit: also note that most of the opponents he goes 1v1 with are 4 levels lower than he is.

---

There is NO way on earth any game should allow a healer to do any kind of damage beyond SUPPORT damage.The healer in any traditional sense of the word "MMORPG" is just that a healer not a DD.Games should be trying to encourage teamwork not make every class able to solo,especially not the healer class witch is the main glue that holds a party together.
This is why  we have seen so much bickering already over healers not healing,they made them a DD solo class,very bad design.This is why MMORPG developers should stick to the old traditional design and quit trying to make MMO's into first person shooter/PVP games.
I don't blame the players for complaining about this ,they darn well should be,of course the selfish players who are rolling healer types will cry foul and NERF and say the developer ruined the game.The game should benefit all and encourage team play not selfish solo play,that's a perfect design for failure.
 

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I'm very glad you aren't a designer on this game. The way they built healers is almost perfect, there is very little I'd change and they are far from overpowered.

What makes rock paper scissors work is each player had a damage type ideal against one target and a damage type that is ideal against him. When you start adding in other classes and damage types it becomes rock, paper, scissors, fireball, lightning bolt, meat cleaver, whatever and the perfectly balanced triad goes right out the window. Which is why that type of game will always be inherently imbalanced. The alternative is to give every type of damage equal effect but that's unsatisfying because every class becomes exactly the same just with different descriptions and animations. The best you can hope for is an approximation of balance and for each class to have a role it can fulfill whether it's in a group or solo. .