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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Casual versus Hardcore and the ironacy of human nature.

13 posts found
  qombi

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 1187

 
OP  8/22/08 3:55:14 PM#1

Actually I have to ask why would someone not want longer progression? I am just curious, wouldn't you want your game to last as long as possible if you are paying for it monthly? Why would anyone ask for a game basically to end faster? Would a person that played less than someone that played alot actually have the advantage in they will actually get to enjoy their progression longer than the other person?

Also while we are at it .. what is the difference between a game that comes out with a longer progression than a game that comes out with fast progression that constantly puts out "content" faster because of their game being so fast? I don't see a difference really except you are paying more to progress further in one than the other. In the end the player always ask for more content, I have never heard anyone in a MMORPG state I want the game to end and I don't want to ever to progress further. Well actually I don't like change much but I am weird .. moving on. If you actually read what i am saying here then you will see how silly the debate is between the two types of games. The are ultimately the same but one just ends faster and then people will just finish faster and beg for more content .. .in which is ironic considering that is exactly what they don't want to do in the game is progress. You can see this if they think the game takes too long to get to max level, people complain.

Now what I could see people ask for is fun group dungeons, raid dungeons, PvP, etc etc .. whatever floats your boat to happen all the way up so your wonderful game that has slow progression is a blast for a long time to come, while the fast one ends .. and then has to patch and patch to try to keep up with "we want more!". Isn't the human species odd at times.

  Chiram

Novice Member

Joined: 8/11/04
Posts: 652

8/22/08 4:24:54 PM#2

Longer progression? sure... making it completely impossible for most working class people to do any true heavy duty raiding... no thanks.

I think the only solution to make things fair, is to register your game accounts with your social security #. That way, your characters can be flagged unemployed or employed. Employed people get more xp, more rare drops to compensate for the fact that they will never get to enjoy most of the end game raid content ( cept warhammer). The dudes who are unemployed, get to walk around with their tier 100 gear but we can still point and laugh, because they will be flagged unemployed or part time losers. That will never happen though :D so for now, we just assume those with good raid gear are unemployed ( which most are) and those who aren't have lives or have more important things to do.

Depends on how you define progression, I don't feel like spending 20 hrs ( which for me would be all my available play time between monday-friday) to get half a level. That's complete BS.

  DeserttFoxx

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/11/04
Posts: 2302

Cry Havok; and let loose the dogs of war.

Si vis pacem, para bellum

8/22/08 4:37:17 PM#3

I firmly believe that nobody wants to spend an absurd amount of time at low levels. I would prefer to grind out items, status, skills, money, trades skills then base level. Thats why i didnt mind warcrafts power grind to max level and spend the rest of my time earning other stuff.

 

I hate grinidng level so fast level progression is always welcome.

Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy

Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman

Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson

  SioBabble

Novice Member

Joined: 6/10/07
Posts: 2823

8/22/08 4:38:50 PM#4

There's a problem here between those who are interested in playing a game, and those who are interested in experiencing a virtual reality.

When SWG first came out, there were all these people jumping up and down and asking what the endgame was.  They seemed to be in a huge hurry to do something and move on.  Which to me is missing the point entirely.

I could never relate to this, because I was there to live a life in a Star Wars universe, not to play a game where you get to the end and you move on to the next one.

The point to me is the technology available makes a crude virtual reality possible, and that's why you're there.  To get away from the boredom of real life for most of us, because there's a lot of pure crap we have to put up with in early 21st century society.  To live a life in a virtual world of adventure and excitement that for a variety of reasons we can't live in the real world.

CH, Jedi, Commando, Smuggler, BH, Scout, Doctor, Chef, BE...yeah, lots of SWG time invested.

Once a denizen of Ahazi

  Mylon

Novice Member

Joined: 2/02/06
Posts: 974

8/22/08 5:06:05 PM#5

I hate grind, but I like infinite progression. The difference? You can progress in small, frequent increments but still have tons of content available. The best example of this is Guild Wars, where most of the content is made for max level, and while progression is lateral rather than vertical once you hit max level, the important part is that there is tons of content to explore.

In most games, there might be some good content for levels 1-10, but levels 11-59 are terribly boring and repetitive. Games offer tons of neat features and such, but so few of them can be experienced at low level. Therefore, getting to max level (and thus the features) is a grind. If these were available early on so players can run around and experience the game they would level as a natural result of playing.

The easiest way to cater content so that players can merely experience the content at their own pace and level along the way is to narrow the power gap between minimum and max level. This way even a relative newbie can visit whatever area they like and just play. After playing for a while, then they'll just have an easier time in other areas or maybe be able to access 20% more content.

residentfeline Xfire Miniprofile
  BarCrow

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/25/07
Posts: 2096

8/22/08 5:13:35 PM#6
Originally posted by Chiram

Longer progression? sure... making it completely impossible for most working class people to do any true heavy duty raiding... no thanks.

I think the only solution to make things fair, is to register your game accounts with your social security #. That way, your characters can be flagged unemployed or employed. Employed people get more xp, more rare drops to compensate for the fact that they will never get to enjoy most of the end game raid content ( cept warhammer). The dudes who are unemployed, get to walk around with their tier 100 gear but we can still point and laugh, because they will be flagged unemployed or part time losers. That will never happen though :D so for now, we just assume those with good raid gear are unemployed ( which most are) and those who aren't have lives or have more important things to do.

Depends on how you define progression, I don't feel like spending 20 hrs ( which for me would be all my available play time between monday-friday) to get half a level. That's complete BS.

This is....BRILLIANT!...I don't even need the increased rare drops or extra xp...just the "UNEMPLOYED" tag would work fine to remind me that it is just a game. Although some cool looking gear ...gear that doesn't make me look like a homeless colored-blind court jester....that would be good.

  Urrelles

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/10/08
Posts: 575

8/22/08 11:02:36 PM#7

Proggression is a very crude way to define Casual gameplay.  Some companies use progression but it is not the ture solution to make a difference between casual and hardcore.

3 other factors determine casual and harcore.  Rewards in all activities compared to fewer distinct reward areas.  The ability to play for a short time and accomplish something.  Lastly there is simplicity of gameplay. 

The reward system is the most important feature to making a difference of casual and hardcore.  In the standard hardcore games of the past, players in PvP would not recieve an award for winningin battle.  It was just the ability to prove ones power.  Other games allowed players to take items from each other.  A broad range of gamers don't like the idea of one player literally stealing an item from you after beating you to a pulp. 

To make things, like PvP, casual frequent rewards were introduced with little punishment.  In WoW a player is capable of earning powerful gear through playing battlegrounds for a couple hours each day.  They could compete in the Arena and earn some stronger items.  They can also raid and quest to earn strong gear.  Before it's recent expansion WoW had a very hardcore PvP system that only reward people who dedicated immense amoutn of time to the battlegrounds.  this squandered out the regular player causing the PvP aspect of the game to only be enjoyable for a few.

 

Playing for a short time is something that casual players like.  While I wait for my carpool I can play for 30 minutes and complete a task.  This is quite casual.  This was never possible in games like Dark Age of Camelot.  A player must invest a good 2 hours to get anything of significance done.

WoW is no longer a casual game that allows a player to pick it up and put it down.  the Burning Crusade has forced players to spend much more time raiding and running instances.  the raiding system itself ahs forced sparatic gamers out of the picture.  You must now be pat of a forum group, sign up for a raid at a specific time, and attend a complex point system crafted by players in order to successful participate and enjoy raids in WoW.  the reason?  They are too long and somewhat hard.

 

Simplicity is the final factor.  Can anyone pick up the game and start playing and easily understand how it works?  I can tell you right now, when I was new to MMO games, my friend and I picked up EQ1.  when we got in game we had no clue what to do and eventually gave up trying to play the game.  It wasn't very casual.  Now I could sit my mom down in front of WoW and she could learn how to play very easily without my guidance.

 

In the end casual gaming is defined by progression, simplicity, playtime, and risk vs reward.

  Theocritus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3541

8/22/08 11:32:34 PM#8

     Most people dont look at MMOs like they're building their characters anymore......There used to be a sense of pride if your character was a high level or maxxed out a tradeskill when very few others did...... MMos now are an "everyone gets a trophy" mentality......

  MarL

Novice Member

Joined: 7/07/03
Posts: 607

8/23/08 7:16:50 AM#9

I like games with no character progression, 10six planetside wwiionline...(they just need a tad more work)

I would rather the progression be owning more land, economy, surviving, politics, pvp.

Leveling is just a time filler, so why would I want it longer?

If a mmo is designed well it should last 5 years without a content update (excluding fixing bugs)

 

Own, Mine, Defend, Attack, 24/7

  galantgone

Novice Member

Joined: 8/21/08
Posts: 54

8/23/08 7:29:08 AM#10
Originally posted by qombi

Actually I have to ask why would someone not want longer progression? I am just curious, wouldn't you want your game to last as long as possible if you are paying for it monthly? Why would anyone ask for a game basically to end faster? Would a person that played less than someone that played alot actually have the advantage in they will actually get to enjoy their progression longer than the other person?

Also while we are at it .. what is the difference between a game that comes out with a longer progression than a game that comes out with fast progression that constantly puts out "content" faster because of their game being so fast? I don't see a difference really except you are paying more to progress further in one than the other. In the end the player always ask for more content, I have never heard anyone in a MMORPG state I want the game to end and I don't want to ever to progress further. Well actually I don't like change much but I am weird .. moving on. If you actually read what i am saying here then you will see how silly the debate is between the two types of games. The are ultimately the same but one just ends faster and then people will just finish faster and beg for more content .. .in which is ironic considering that is exactly what they don't want to do in the game is progress. You can see this if they think the game takes too long to get to max level, people complain.

Now what I could see people ask for is fun group dungeons, raid dungeons, PvP, etc etc .. whatever floats your boat to happen all the way up so your wonderful game that has slow progression is a blast for a long time to come, while the fast one ends .. and then has to patch and patch to try to keep up with "we want more!". Isn't the human species odd at times.


 

Casual makes for short playing.

  qombi

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 1187

 
OP  8/24/08 1:55:19 AM#11
Originally posted by Chiram

Longer progression? sure... making it completely impossible for most working class people to do any true heavy duty raiding... no thanks.

I think the only solution to make things fair, is to register your game accounts with your social security #. That way, your characters can be flagged unemployed or employed. Employed people get more xp, more rare drops to compensate for the fact that they will never get to enjoy most of the end game raid content ( cept warhammer). The dudes who are unemployed, get to walk around with their tier 100 gear but we can still point and laugh, because they will be flagged unemployed or part time losers. That will never happen though :D so for now, we just assume those with good raid gear are unemployed ( which most are) and those who aren't have lives or have more important things to do.

Depends on how you define progression, I don't feel like spending 20 hrs ( which for me would be all my available play time between monday-friday) to get half a level. That's complete BS.

 

Human nature is funny, all these post and still no one sees what I am writing about. As you noticed I did not state that what people like is wrong. My post was merely and observation on human nature and the inability to think outside the box.  This post above for example, look what this individual got from my post. This person perceived my post as bashing the "working class" people. Think about this, are you actually at the "finish line" in your fast progression game .. or is it merely a pause for the developer to add the progression in faster chunks as you pay for another expansion? Would not a slower progression game with raids or pvp objectives at different levels of the game be not the same thing? What I see is people willing to pay for a shorter game with less content than pay for a longer game with more content because they perceive a game that last longer to be more tedious. That is odd because these are games, you would think if they feel the need to rush through them they would not buy them because they would realize that this game that is suppose to be for entertainment isn't actually fun for them because they wish for it to end. For an online world that people form relationships in and pay monthly for you would think it would be the opposite. You would think people would want to spend as much time as they can progressing.

 

If people truley do not like the progression part would people pay to play a game that had no progression? Would you pay to play a game where there were not levels or skills to increase .. the only thing that you do is raid/pvp etc for equipment or faction? I am curious because this is the part of the game that people seem to rush to. I am interested in peoples thoughts on that. If this is the case should they start making games with nothing but group/raid/pvp content and you log in and form guilds and start collecting the gear? Your thoughts?

  Reklaw

Elite Member

Joined: 1/07/06
Posts: 5751

The adult I am takes care of most things real life. However my inner-child is a GAMER!!

8/24/08 2:25:58 AM#12
Originally posted by SioBabble

There's a problem here between those who are interested in playing a game, and those who are interested in experiencing a virtual reality.

When SWG first came out, there were all these people jumping up and down and asking what the endgame was.  They seemed to be in a huge hurry to do something and move on.  Which to me is missing the point entirely.

I could never relate to this, because I was there to live a life in a Star Wars universe, not to play a game where you get to the end and you move on to the next one.

The point to me is the technology available makes a crude virtual reality possible, and that's why you're there.  To get away from the boredom of real life for most of us, because there's a lot of pure crap we have to put up with in early 21st century society.  To live a life in a virtual world of adventure and excitement that for a variety of reasons we can't live in the real world.


 

Fully agree with this, it was also the thing that made SWG that great, there was no rush,, there was no need to get to end game, you could simply LIFE THE LIFE OF THAT CHARACTER in a virtual world. It didn't matter if you took a character and hardly spend leveling as there was SOOOOO much to do in the game before they turned it into a easy to grasp concept for those who till today don't seem to get the meaning of a MMORPG. Unfortunaly the masses got bored cause they where used on having their handhold thru out a game and pre/cu SWG didn´t hold their hand. Boy where those new people into this genre LOUD as they got hte NGE even if those whiners already left the game long before evne CU or NGE where implimented.

It was a time where gamers acted like gamers, these day's most things we see from people are people who are spoiled and lost a realistic view upon this genre.

But then I do know I am a minority these day's as the masses have spoken and keep speaking, keep bashing, keep hoping games they dislike will fail which to me proofs that many people should not even be playing games cause anyone who wants a game to fail even if that person doesn't like a game should leave gaming cause selfish people should not be playing socializing games in my opinion, cause those people are not social but selfish.

I always thought this genre would become more and more like virtual worlds, but then seeing HOW people are complaining shows that it might take another 3/5 years before we might see this and before people start to understand that we don't need to see a game fail but we need to see MORE games so that in the end people can find the game to enjoy.

Now MMORPG's are turning more and more into "JUST" a online game that thousends of people can play simultaneously, instead of that virtual world we can share our experiences in.

  User Deleted
8/24/08 8:43:52 AM#13

I don't like progression, I don't find it fun, but it is a means to an end, since I like going to different areas, getting new abilities and items and customizing my character, I do it.

The reason I do not like slow progression is because I have to do more work for the reward (content, abilities customization etc.) and at this point it feels like the amount of work I have to put into the game overshadows the now infrequent rewards.

Would I pay to play a game that I did not progress in? Yes, if it was an online persistant world, had good customization, plenty of abilities, fun combat, and lots of things to explore and do, minus gear grinds and raids, I do not like those.  Progression may be needed to hold other's attention but I can play a game for a long time without ever leveling/skilling/ranking up.