I think SANDBOX has become a term which now means, my own personal game design.

That's why people like sandbox games, because when they use that term, they mean the game which has the features I like, and does not have the features I don't like.

For example, some people think a sandbox game must have skills not levels. Others think a sandbox game can just as easily have levels as skills. Neither one, skills or levels, makes a game a sandbox, or precludes it from being a sandbox.

Or, some people like games when you do something over and over and that increases your skill, like I swing my sword a million times, my sword swinging skill gets better. And THAT's what they mean by "sandbox".

Other people think there should be FFA PvP everywhere, and THAT makes a sandbox. Others think it's about the ability to build a house anywhere, or craft everything in the game, or no NpC's and a completely player based economy.

When someone says, I'm waiting on DarkFall because I like a Sandbox game, what they mean is this. Darkfall doesn't describe any of it's game mechanics, and no one has ever played it, so you don't know what htey are.

So, if you like skills that increase with use, well, I'll just imagine Darkfall has that. If you like skill points you can spend, I'll just imagine Darkfall has that. If you like to be able to build a "tank mage" I'll just imagine Darkfall has that. If you think you shouldn't be able to build a "tank Mage" I'll imagine there are game mechanics that prevent that.

Basically, I'll just imagine whatever features I like, and I'll think they are in Darkfall. Whatever features I personally don't like, I"ll imagine they are not in Darkfall.

Therefore, it's always going to be the perfect game, because it will always have whatever you like, and none of what you don't like.

And that's what "sandbox" means now. A game that has everything I personally like, and nothing I personally don't like.

Of course such a game is never coming out, because no game will ever have every feature you like, and none fo the features you don't like. Even if you design it yourself it's not going to be like that because of budget and technology constraints.

While I do think there are some things that inherently make a game more sandboxy, and I could spout my own definition, I think your right.  My own definition of sandbox would ultimately make the game I would like to play.

Venge Sunsoar

Originally posted by Vendayn

sandbox for me is a MMO that has freedom and no instances. No raids or no forced raids, free to go anywhere in the world...like SWG, Ryzom, UO, Eve...perfect examples. Well I didn't like Eve since I'm not into space games, but SWG, Ryzom, UO are my favorite MMOs. And I could consider Asheron's Call as a sandbox and that game was awesome, so I'll add that to my favorite MMOs too.

 

The only MMOs I've liked are similar to the ones I've listed. Not quest forced, not raid forced, and grouping in all those is encouraged but not forced either. That to me is freedom, to not be forced to play a certain way but to play any way you want depending on what you want to do.

 

 

For me, a "sandbox" game is about being able to change the world in some way. Plus I like to group, and don't like to play MMO's solo, so  "forced grouping" means to me a game that has great game mechanics that allow players to work together. As long as you can do that to change the world, it's a sandbox IMO.

Your "encouraged to group but don't have to" design, means for me, that the grouping game kinda sucks, which is the fun part of an MMORPG for me.

Here's my example of why solo friendly means the grouping game sucks. Imagine a game of football. You like to play because you can devise plays, work together as a team, pass the ball, run the ball, etc. Now, some people come along and day, we want to play football too, so please change the rules so we can play solo. We need a field that is half as big, and with only one goal post, and some dummy obstacles on hte field.

Well, that's find and dandy, but you 've changed the rules to the point where I can't have fun anymore with my team. How am I going to play with only one goal post and half a field and dummy obstacles?

I don't see what being able to solo has to do with being a "sandbox", hence everyone has their own definition, and it just comes down to basically, "the game I want to play".

At the heart of a sandbox is freedom.  Features like FFA, housing, crafting, skills, levels, etc. are only features within that freedom, because a game could have all of them and still not be a sandbox.

It sounds like you don't quite get the concept of sandbox. 

The features you are describing are just fluff.

Sandbox is a style game where the objectives are not predefined by the developer, you are given a world with some minimal predefined rulesets and you make your own game in it. 

Like a childs sandbox, which is just a box of sand, the actual game comes from the childs imagination and doesn't have a set objective such as Ludo for instance.

Originally posted by Blodpls

It sounds like you don't quite get the concept of sandbox. 

The features you are describing are just fluff.

Sandbox is a style game where the objectives are not predefined by the developer, you are given a world with some minimal predefined rulesets and you make your own game in it. 

Like a childs sandbox, which is just a box of sand, the actual game comes from the childs imagination and doesn't have a set objective such as Ludo for instance.

I never heard of Ludo, so I can't comment about that.

But I think YOU are missing the point that people on this forum are looking for a sandbox GAME, not just a sandbox.

A Game has to have some objective, or it's not a game. Posters on MMORPG.Com aren't just looking for a box of sand. If that was the cause, they'd be happy with Second Life.

Players are looking for a GAME to play in the sandbox, not just a sandbox with no game.

Originally posted by Blodpls

It sounds like you don't quite get the concept of sandbox. 

The features you are describing are just fluff.

Sandbox is a style game where the objectives are not predefined by the developer, you are given a world with some minimal predefined rulesets and you make your own game in it. 

Like a childs sandbox, which is just a box of sand, the actual game comes from the childs imagination and doesn't have a set objective such as Ludo for instance.

I disagree.  There can be goals and objectives given by the developer however there is a way to sidestep those goals and objectives and be able to produce your own goals and objectives.  Like when someone is allready playing in a sandbox and you can and play with them.  It is about choice.  Eliminiting those pre-defined goals eliminates some choice.

So once again, it just boils down to the, "The game I want to play."

Venge Sunsoar

Sandbox = freedom, choice and tools for the players to make the game world however they wish.

Class/lvls = hampster on a wheel quests, linear gameplay andspoonfed dev content.

It's easy to assume just because a mmo gives the payers skill points and exploration that it is considered a sandbox. While those things have touches of sandbox, a mmo of this kind falls in the hybrid area.  WOW and Vanguard and alot of others fall in this category.

SWG pre-cu, EVE and UO are true sandbox mmo's.

Originally posted by gillvane1

Originally posted by Blodpls

It sounds like you don't quite get the concept of sandbox. 

The features you are describing are just fluff.

Sandbox is a style game where the objectives are not predefined by the developer, you are given a world with some minimal predefined rulesets and you make your own game in it. 

Like a childs sandbox, which is just a box of sand, the actual game comes from the childs imagination and doesn't have a set objective such as Ludo for instance.

 

I never heard of Ludo, so I can't comment about that.

But I think YOU are missing the point that people on this forum are looking for a sandbox GAME, not just a sandbox.

A Game has to have some objective, or it's not a game. Posters on MMORPG.Com aren't just looking for a box of sand. If that was the cause, they'd be happy with Second Life.

Players are looking for a GAME to play in the sandbox, not just a sandbox with no game.

Ludo is a boardgame like monopoly.

A game does not need to have predefined objectives to be classified as a game.

Do children playing cowboys and indians have a set objective?

Imagine Grand Theft Auto if they removed all the missions.  That would be an example of a sandbox game.

Microsoft Flight Simulator could also be used as an example, it has a minimum predefined ruleset (flight physics engine) but no set objectives, you just fly around and do whatever you want.

This is pure sandbox.   

It depends on what you mean by 'Sandbox'.

Some sandboxes are bigger than others, have deeper sand, different type of sand ect.

I think the general idea of a sandbox is:

Open world - No instancing

Minimal existing NPC Merchants and Buildings - only to help the new players get started

Ability to place buidlings/space stations where you want

Ability to craft all fighting and housing gear

A Skill based system that allows players to design their own skill set and balance for PVE, PVP and Crafting.

It can be done, and it can be done well, but one of the deep pocket companies is going to have to decide to do it, and none of them seem to have anything in the works.

For me its about freedom.

And i think you need to have skills in a sandbox MMO for that. This is why: In SWG, my gf played a entertainer. She worked with house interiour and  disigning clothes. And thanks to a skillsystem, she could do that from day one. And didnt have to kill one mob.  She was not interested in the of the other parts of the game, and dint have to play them.

So i mreally agree with the OP. With sandbox you can pick the parts you like, without beeing forced to play everything (as in a level system).

i think most just want something different and the term sandbox is very cliche for that right now. I mean really aren't we all sick of Warcrafty type games ... with maybe a few bonus features and different graphics?

thats what i want ... something different I am tired of "theme park" MMOs I want a living world to interact with. A world where i can choose what i want to be ... not an "archtype" or choosing a "role", I don't want to be a "tank" or "dpser". I'm more complicated than that and expect my game to be as well

It's all about being free.   For me the best sandbox game ever made was Asheron's Call.  I wish devs would make more games like that, i'm so tired of linear mmorpgs....

Originally posted by daarco

For me its about freedom.

And i think you need to have skills in a sandbox MMO for that. This is why: In SWG, my gf played a entertainer. She worked with house interiour and  disigning clothes. And thanks to a skillsystem, she could do that from day one. And didnt have to kill one mob.  She was not interested in the of the other parts of the game, and dint have to play them.

So i mreally agree with the OP. With sandbox you can pick the parts you like, without beeing forced to play everything (as in a level system).

IMO, it wouldn't make any difference if there were skills or classes. Some could just play an entertainer class, instead of picking entertainer skills.

If you can get ALL skills, then everyone will be exactly the same, because everyone will have ALL skills. That means you can't be anything you want, it means theres' really only one type of character, the type with all the skills in the game, and that's what every single player will be.

If you can't get ALL skills, then you end up with templates, which aren't any different than classes really, especially the way MMO's are doing the hybrid classes these days, like in City of Heroes, or in WAR.

Originally posted by Ravanos

i think most just want something different and the term sandbox is very cliche for that right now. I mean really aren't we all sick of Warcrafty type games ... with maybe a few bonus features and different graphics?

thats what i want ... something different I am tired of "theme park" MMOs I want a living world to interact with. A world where i can choose what i want to be ... not an "archtype" or choosing a "role", I don't want to be a "tank" or "dpser". I'm more complicated than that and expect my game to be as well

Again, if everyone can choose every skill, then every character in the game will be exactly alike. I mean, if that's what you want, that's fine.

To me, sandbox means a player driven environment.  Unlike games where the developers make all the content, the content is player made.  This does not necessarily mean players set out to design the content for each other, but rather the shared world is shaped through their actions.  In a sense they are the content.

Things like economy, pvp, housing and so on are just different ways players can shape the world and interact with each other.  Perhpas sandbox is not the right word, but I use it to mean a dynamic environment built on player interaction.  Perhaps something like "world simulator" would be more appropriate.

I guess since everyone has different definitions, the OP's point is strong.  However, at least people tend to agree which games were closer to being a sandbox than others.

Sanbox Thread number #344242.

People will not be same.

Some people want to fight npc's so they will get combat skills.

Some people will only want to craft and do nothing else so will get crafting skills.

Some people will only want to be traders so they maybe don't need any skills.

There are lots of different playstyles in mmo's.  People only get skills they are interested in.

Originally posted by gillvane1

Originally posted by Ravanos

i think most just want something different and the term sandbox is very cliche for that right now. I mean really aren't we all sick of Warcrafty type games ... with maybe a few bonus features and different graphics?

thats what i want ... something different I am tired of "theme park" MMOs I want a living world to interact with. A world where i can choose what i want to be ... not an "archtype" or choosing a "role", I don't want to be a "tank" or "dpser". I'm more complicated than that and expect my game to be as well

 

Again, if everyone can choose every skill, then every character in the game will be exactly alike. I mean, if that's what you want, that's fine.

I'm actually playing a game where every single character can learn every single skill.   Given enough time every character will be the same, however there are a ton of skills and a lot of levels so in almost 5 years they aren't the same yet.
 

Venge Sunsoar

Originally posted by gillvane1

Originally posted by Ravanos

i think most just want something different and the term sandbox is very cliche for that right now. I mean really aren't we all sick of Warcrafty type games ... with maybe a few bonus features and different graphics?

thats what i want ... something different I am tired of "theme park" MMOs I want a living world to interact with. A world where i can choose what i want to be ... not an "archtype" or choosing a "role", I don't want to be a "tank" or "dpser". I'm more complicated than that and expect my game to be as well

 

Again, if everyone can choose every skill, then every character in the game will be exactly alike. I mean, if that's what you want, that's fine.

well if you take it in the literal sense then yes. however In most skill based games the more skills you have the longer it takes to learn new ones or have caps on skills (EVE i believe does this and SWG prenge did the whole cap thing). Either of those work for me.