Originally posted by Gabrion2

Originally posted by Dr.Rock

Originally posted by Gabrion2

DDO has a solid combat system, but there is so much fail in the game it's really really hard to get excited about one tiny bright spot.

Combat, excellent quests (what most MMOs call quests are a joke), complex character builds, no real PvP (that is a massive positive to me because I find PvP the most mindless content possible), no huge boring open areas (again I find these tedious) and a great community.

Probably why I haven't managed to play any other MMO for any length of time since without finding them heavily lacking, but other peoples mileage can clearly vary.

 

So the game is better because it lacks content that is optional in the first place but enjoyable for many people?  Riiiight.

For me yes, it is nice to have a MMO that has the balance I want. No other MMO meets my needs, but I doubt they are going to change them to suit me, so I find it difficult to get too upset that DDO doesn't meet yours, or any real reason to change it to do so.

People are different and want different things, there is no right and wrong, is that so hard to understand?

Originally posted by Gabrion2

DDO has a solid combat system, but there is so much fail in the game it's really really hard to get excited about one tiny bright spot.

Care to elborate or just talking out of your rear?

DDO has more to offer then any MMO on the market.  "The" downside with DDO is there's quite a few (ie, millions) who think spamming a single attack and button mashing once someone pulls a single mob is the only way to play a game.  What I'm saying here is: 

DDO is too advanced for the main stream market.  It requires players to use their brains and think of new strategies while working together as a team by using personal skills.  The problem is, these people who can't grasp DDO isn't to blame, it's not their fault and they'll likely never understand the concept of high dynamics in an RPG.

DDO is the thinking persons game.  If you like Chess you're likely to enjoy the dynamics strategies you'll experiance in this game. Otherwise, checkers, or WoW, is probally more your thing.

Originally posted by mindspat

Originally posted by Gabrion2

DDO has a solid combat system, but there is so much fail in the game it's really really hard to get excited about one tiny bright spot.

 

Care to elborate or just talking out of your rear?

DDO has more to offer then any MMO on the market.  "The" downside with DDO is there's quite a few (ie, millions) who think spamming a single attack and button mashing once someone pulls a single mob is the only way to play a game.  What I'm saying here is: 

DDO is too advanced for the main stream market.  It requires players to use their brains and think of new strategies while working together as a team by using personal skills.  The problem is, these people who can't grasp DDO isn't to blame, it's not their fault and they'll likely never understand the concept of high dynamics in an RPG.

DDO is the thinking persons game.  If you like Chess you're likely to enjoy the dynamics strategies you'll experiance in this game. Otherwise, checkers, or WoW, is probally more your thing.

Elaborating on the failures is pretty easy

1) Content fails

1a) Content fails because each release is so small the content is new for no more than a few days for most players.  It also comes very slowly - usually months after it is scheduled to be released.

1b) Content fails because the quality of each release is so low.  The game abounds with bugs, often making instances (raids especially) unplayable.  Sometimes for MONTHS at a time.

2) Turbine customer relations/game support fails.  In game GMs are useless.  Dealing with customer service (or god forbid trying to have a discourse with developers on the forums) is a horrifying experience.  Try this game and see if you dont believe me (and btw it is obvious they have different teams for different games, so don't think the kind people dealing with you in LOTRO will be there for DDO).

3) Game mechanics fail

3a) Itemiztion is the worst I've ever seen in any MMO.  Many of the best items in the game are 100% random drops.  The good loot that comes from raids has a ridiculously low chance of actually dropping for your character - an unashamed attempt by the devs to extend the longevity of the sparse content. 

3b) Drastic rebalancing of classes/feats/etc frequently takes place, frequently making obsolete specific skills around with people build characters.  As a result (and because of the above mentioned poor itemization scheme) players can put months or years into a character to have a sudden nerf of key abilities that makes them no longer desirable in groups.

4) The game fails because it lacks.  It lacks a good mail system.  It lacks a good auction house.  It lacks a good guild interface.  It lacks solo content for players who don't always have time to wait for a group.  It lacks developed PvP for people who enjoy that. 

This game has instances that you need to group with 4-6 other people to play through.  People aren't interested in doing the particular instance you want to do, or you can't find level appropriate people to join you?  Tough luck.  You now get to stand in a tavern for hours scanning the social panel.

___________________________________

To address the notion that this is somehow the "thinking persons" MMO (or however mindspat tried to frame it), nothing could be further from the truth.  This is the ONLY  MMO I've ever played where strategy to overcome any given challenge was an afterthought.  You can be a caster with low AC/HP and run through mobs in elite dungeons without dying.  Or you can be a fighter and just run up to a bunch of them and pwn their faces.  Heck you can be anything and do pretty much anything effectively.  Sounds almost enticing till you realize this is only because the content is so dumbed down it is all trivial. 

Comparing it to WoW is a joke.  People spent months developing strategies to overcome raid challenges in that game.  Many skilled players still havent seen the "end game" in wow because doing so requires organization and discipline orders of magnitude greater than anything required to play DDO.  Basically every person who has played DDO for a month or two has every raid in the game on farm.  Most "hard-core" players beat the new raids within days (or in some cases hours) of when they hit live servers. 

Comparing DDO to chess only makes sense if you go to the local special needs home to play your games of chess.  Street Fighter on the old Arcade machines was hands down more complex and challenging than DDO.  "The thinking persons MMO," lol.

 I think DDO would have been more popular than it is if:

It was based in Forgotten Realms (I understand why they didn't go that route)

It wasn't restricted to Stormreach. (Waterdeep may have been a better place because right underneth WD is the Underdark and being able to explore the land around the city would have been a plus also)

I liked DDO when i did play, but it's one city and it's not Forgotten Realms.

Originally posted by ricefarmer

ive been looking for an mmo that has this type of gameplay and thought it coudln't exist!

i thought spellborn was the answer but dam those characters are ugly...

is it because of the heavy instances that this combat is possible? if it is why the hell would people complain if it means no more mindless point and click....

 

Why should this game or any game have more or less subs than it currently has?  Water seeks it's own level and I think that is somewhat true with these types of games.
 

Being a big o' geek myself, I can give the reasons I do not play it. I have, several times in the past, I always check out the new updates when they have the free weekend or week.

1) It is pretty obvous that the designers are not role players. They should have played up the fact that it is D&D. Rather than go "Oh this is broken we know what we are doing, and the game designers who wrote it do not, so lets fix it" This is a common problem when table top rpgs gets ported to the computer.

2) They have no idea what is cool about the setting. Eberron is a awesome setting, It is more dynamic than any of the other ones that TSR or WotC has ever put out.  It was made to make sense. There is a reason for all the odd monsters. They are in the aftermath of a WWII with magic. And now everyone is in a cold war type setting.

3) It is not a complete game, even now after all this time. Half the races are missing, many of the core classes are missing. More importantly, There is only one of the new races that as added in Eberron in the game currently. The Warforged. Which are cool, but the least impressive of the bunch that were added. Lets not get into the fact that they are missing the Classes that were added in Eberron as well.

4) They set in on the wrong Island. Xendrick is actually a cool place. But without the history and motivations that come from being involved in one of the other great kingdoms, it is sort of pointless. Xendrick is the place of dungeons, and odd adventures. But the whys of it are missing.

5) Eberron is a place of EPIC adventure. Where things much bigger than you are at work. There is so much going on in the world that one party could never take care of it. But this is missing from the game.

6) Level cap is way to low. D&D is a 40 level game basicly. DDO does not even offer to 20 yet ( I do not think, been a bit sinse the last time I checked)

7) Item creation is core to the setting. Yet players can not make their own magic items. You are stuck with random loot drops. Which is a part of D&D but not the main away characters over level 5 get magic items in Ebberon.

In the end, They failed to click with the fans of the setting. Who if it had been done right would have been rabbid and vocal about how cool it was and bring friends. Failed to offer a full game, it is still basicaly in a extended beta. Thought they knew better than professional rpg developers. Who do this for a living, and actually play RPGs.

The only thing it has going for it is the style of play, which I admit I like. I just keep hoping they will finish the base game and include what should be there. I will keep checking back in hopes that it will one day be a game worth playing.

--Aspirant

Originally posted by Aspirant13

Being a big o' geek myself, I can give the reasons I do not play it. I have, several times in the past, I always check out the new updates when they have the free weekend or week.

1) It is pretty obvous that the designers are not role players. They should have played up the fact that it is D&D. Rather than go "Oh this is broken we know what we are doing, and the game designers who wrote it do not, so lets fix it" This is a common problem when table top rpgs gets ported to the computer.

2) They have no idea what is cool about the setting. Eberron is a awesome setting, It is more dynamic than any of the other ones that TSR or WotC has ever put out.  It was made to make sense. There is a reason for all the odd monsters. They are in the aftermath of a WWII with magic. And now everyone is in a cold war type setting.

3) It is not a complete game, even now after all this time. Half the races are missing, many of the core classes are missing. More importantly, There is only one of the new races that as added in Eberron in the game currently. The Warforged. Which are cool, but the least impressive of the bunch that were added. Lets not get into the fact that they are missing the Classes that were added in Eberron as well.

4) They set in on the wrong Island. Xendrick is actually a cool place. But without the history and motivations that come from being involved in one of the other great kingdoms, it is sort of pointless. Xendrick is the place of dungeons, and odd adventures. But the whys of it are missing.

5) Eberron is a place of EPIC adventure. Where things much bigger than you are at work. There is so much going on in the world that one party could never take care of it. But this is missing from the game.

6) Level cap is way to low. D&D is a 40 level game basicly. DDO does not even offer to 20 yet ( I do not think, been a bit sinse the last time I checked)

7) Item creation is core to the setting. Yet players can not make their own magic items. You are stuck with random loot drops. Which is a part of D&D but not the main away characters over level 5 get magic items in Ebberon.

In the end, They failed to click with the fans of the setting. Who if it had been done right would have been rabbid and vocal about how cool it was and bring friends. Failed to offer a full game, it is still basicaly in a extended beta. Thought they knew better than professional rpg developers. Who do this for a living, and actually play RPGs.

The only thing it has going for it is the style of play, which I admit I like. I just keep hoping they will finish the base game and include what should be there. I will keep checking back in hopes that it will one day be a game worth playing.

 

--Aspirant

Well Mod 9 should introduce level 20 I guess in January or so.

Has it been a long time since you played?  Because Green steel crafted items have been in for a while now and they are by far the most powerful items in the game so your #7 is basically wrong.  Not that I like GS items, they involve tons of farming.  But for the sake of correctness etc etc

Anyway I do not like Eberron all that much as a setting and I think Planescape fits the mechancis of the game far better and is just much cooler anyway.  The infinite doors and factions are like a perfect fit for DDO's setup.

Originally posted by Dr.Rock

Originally posted by Gabrion2

DDO has a solid combat system, but there is so much fail in the game it's really really hard to get excited about one tiny bright spot.

Combat, excellent quests (what most MMOs call quests are a joke), complex character builds, no real PvP (that is a massive positive to me because I find PvP the most mindless content possible), no huge boring open areas (again I find these tedious) and a great community.

Probably why I haven't managed to play any other MMO for any length of time since without finding them heavily lacking, but other peoples mileage can clearly vary.

DDO definately has great combat, probably the best of any MMO. The quests are the game and those are done amazingly well. I agree on PVP unless the game is truly designed for it(Planetside) it usually is not as great as some seem to think. People tend to act like the AI anyway.

I disagree on the open areas. They do not have to be boring at all. Many games with wide open areas have a lot of good things in those areas. DDO could have done both. Instances and wide open areas with contested MOBS and made it exciting.

Yes most other MMOS have poorer quest system, but those games all have other ways to level, DDO has one way really, completion of quests.

DDO does the things it does very very well and if you started playing today you might have a year or so of good things to do. If you are looking for a more open ended game with a huge world to explore and the option of grouping or going it alone look elsewhere.

Originally posted by mindspat

Originally posted by Gabrion2

DDO has a solid combat system, but there is so much fail in the game it's really really hard to get excited about one tiny bright spot.

 

Care to elborate or just talking out of your rear?

DDO has more to offer then any MMO on the market.  "The" downside with DDO is there's quite a few (ie, millions) who think spamming a single attack and button mashing once someone pulls a single mob is the only way to play a game.  What I'm saying here is: 

DDO is too advanced for the main stream market.  It requires players to use their brains and think of new strategies while working together as a team by using personal skills.  The problem is, these people who can't grasp DDO isn't to blame, it's not their fault and they'll likely never understand the concept of high dynamics in an RPG.

DDO is the thinking persons game.  If you like Chess you're likely to enjoy the dynamics strategies you'll experiance in this game. Otherwise, checkers, or WoW, is probally more your thing.

DDO offers a very small world and very few options, it really offers less than most MMOS, but what it offers is very high quality for sure.
 

I played DDO for a year and a half and when i left had beaten everything the devs had put out and I found the game to be more thought invoking than most but not nearly as hard as you claim. As a matter of fact when people did use tactics the devs usually nerfed it and called it an exploit because they wanted things to be done in a certain way.

It is not too advanced for the main stream market, it is too small and too rigid to have widespread appeal. It does not offer the vast array of out of combat things to do to keep millions of players happy and involved. The world itself is too tiny so the the explorer type players left quick, there was no crafting for way too long so those players either never started or left, people who are not big on playing alts hit the cap saw how slow the devs created new content and expanded the level cap way too slowly and they left too.

I rarely hear people saying they left because DDO was too hard for them, they left because DDO failed to deliver content as fast as needed.

My 6 year old nephew was playing and killing stuff the other day, so much for hard to grasp.

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

DDO offers a very small world and very few options, it really offers less than most MMOS, but what it offers is very high quality for sure.
 

I played DDO for a year and a half and when i left had beaten everything the devs had put out and I found the game to be more thought invoking than most but not nearly as hard as you claim. As a matter of fact when people did use tactics the devs usually nerfed it and called it an exploit because they wanted things to be done in a certain way.

It is not too advanced for the main stream market, it is too small and too rigid to have widespread appeal. It does not offer the vast array of out of combat things to do to keep millions of players happy and involved. The world itself is too tiny so the the explorer type players left quick, there was no crafting for way too long so those players either never started or left, people who are not big on playing alts hit the cap saw how slow the devs created new content and expanded the level cap way too slowly and they left too.

I rarely hear people saying they left because DDO was too hard for them, they left because DDO failed to deliver content as fast as needed.

My 6 year old nephew was playing and killing stuff the other day, so much for hard to grasp.

I agree that the public zones are small, but if you gauge the size of the world to include the actual content it's not nearly as small as it appears.  The nerf's mentioned are due to actual exploits that players repurpose as a "tactic"; ie, purposely summoning mobs with intent to break AI.  The players are always gonig to outthink the QA personel when it comes to locating ways to work around the core design of a game's content and Turbine has to act accordingly to ensure the game is being played through the content rather then by exploiting bugs to advance.

I'm positive everyone would agree that DDO suffered from poor design at its launch.  It was not a good game to play during the first year and the current content is something that should have been present from the start.  I am one of those who does not play Alts and quit after the first month the game launched.  Retruning a little over a year later I found the game to be fresh with content that has kept me more interested and engaged then anything else I've played.  Besides this, it's still nice to take a month absence every other month or so - as I do with any game.

It's easy enough on the surface for a kid to play and feel rewarded while having the statistical dynamics to challenge those seeking end game mechanics.  While I bet the 8 year old nephew had a blast kick Kobold Ass it's reasonable to assume they had no understanding of the dynamics needed to build a character for mid-to-high level content.

As mentioned in an earlier post, the game's greatest weakness is public outdoor areas without contested mobs.  If Turbine were to implement a system similar to Warhammer's "Public Quests" it would not only fill this gap nicely but would also round out the game.  Currently this is one area that DDO suffers the most.

I have played for 2 years now and the improvements have been wonderful. Is it a small world,...yes and no. Travelling does not exist in Eberron except for a few occasions. Instead of walking forever, Stormreach utilizes teleport gates, airships, waterships, and caravans to get you where you need to go without travelling time. As for exploring areas, there are now Korthos Island (med), Cerrullean Hills (med), Tangleroot (med), Three Barrel Cove (lg), Searing Heights (med), Sorrowdusk (med), Mene. Desert (lg), Gianthold Ruins (lg), Orchard of the Macabre (lg), The Vale of Twilight (lg), The Subterrannae (sm), and 4 new small areas in Reaver's Refuge. There are also some outdoor areas attached to quests that you will need to traverse but they are small. As for quests, most are walk-up and I have yet to do all of them. Though I have done most.  

The real beauty of this game is character customization imho. Creating the build that will have all the right saves, weapon prof, armor, spells, gear, and stats that fit my play style and can contribute significantly in a party for as many quests as possible. Because every class and every build has talents, not every build is going to be as useful as another at any given time. Is this unbalanced? Yes, as it should be. Why bring a knife to a gun battle when you have a sorc who can instakill both of you?

However, building the right toon and then team up with others to do a quest. The most fun are the least ideal for the quest and coming up with a strategy to beat it. It can be amazing to see what everyone comes up with for options.

I think the success of WoW and its predecessor Evequest kind of answers your overarching question as to why DDO isn't that popular.  Folks don't seem to mind the autoattack and go make a sandwich style of combat that I could never get into and people actually do enjoy.  Character positioning doesn't matter at all in those games (I love first person shooters) and it really simplifies things.  DDO's biggest draw is the combat because it has to be (not much in the way of fluff like crafting and player housing) and even having a great combat system just isn't enough for an MMO.  Also, DDO not being solo friendly really hurt it.  Need to add an easy button for folks and I'm not sure why DDO did not do more of that at launch since it is instanced anyway. 

Short answer, its only a game, and it should have been a virtual world. (IMO)

Originally posted by Zoobi

It's because there's very little longevity to the actual gameplay. Once you've taken a toon to max level there's very little in the game to keep you there. Some people enjoy making more toons and seeing what variations the character development throws up, but generally, all there is to do after running a dungeon once is to try and set a new time record for completing the quest.

This game is powergamer central.

I agree. You nailed it! "Oh, you guys finished ____ quest in 40 minutes? Big deal. Our guild did it in 33 minutes and 42 seconds."

I played from launch day through until last year. It really does become powergamer central. Also, there are so many times you can run the same content before it becomes so boring. Even when I went back recently to see the new content, it feels like the same old stuff. People LITERALLY run the same quests HUNDREDS of times. I am NOT exaggerating when I am telling you people run the same quest 500 times. If you are that kind of person, you might find lasting happiness. If not, you could still have a ton of fun, it just probably won't have the staying power you're looking for.

 I think DDO is still one of the best games on the market, hands down, despite the issues above. The combat is great, it really has a lot to offer. You won't play it for years, but if you don't get fun out of it for at least a few months, check your pulse! DDO is a strong B+  in my book, and I can't think of any other MMOs I'd give an A to at this time.

Give it a spin, give it some time, you might be surprised. The game has a lot of flaws but it is innovative in other ways and I've got a lot of great memories from my time there. It also has dx10 now and looks much nicer. LIke I said, I won't ever go back, but that's only because I played it into the ground probably more than any MMO I ever played.

PS "HASTE! HASTE ! HASTE!" or "FIRE RESIST" or "HEAL HEAL" then "HASTE HASTE!!!" hahaha.The character customization isn't all that great. Once you've played the game a while you realize there are only a handful of viable builds per a class. You can get as creative as you want, it doesn't mean they'll be viable (ie a rogue with a returning dagger).

Originally posted by levsix

People LITERALLY run the same quests HUNDREDS of times. I am NOT exaggerating when I am telling you people run the same quest 500 times. If you are that kind of person, you might find lasting happiness. If not, you could still have a ton of fun, it just probably won't have the staying power you're looking for.

PS "HASTE! HASTE ! HASTE!" or "FIRE RESIST" or "HEAL HEAL" then "HASTE HASTE!!!" hahaha.The character customization isn't all that great. Once you've played the game a while you realize there are only a handful of viable builds per a class. You can get as creative as you want, it doesn't mean they'll be viable (ie a rogue with a returning dagger).

I agree that the game facilitates player's who strive to contiusously build better characters and agressively improve upon them, but this is kind of contradictive of the Power Gamer mentality of building templates based on Current activites (ie, fotm) and content then gripe to hell and back when new content would otherwise cause them to rethink their character's applications.  The wonderfull thing is you aren't required to play like this although if that's your wish then the option is availble to do so. 

I have a rebuttal regarding this statement: "The character customization isn't all that great. Once you've played the game a while you realize there are only a handful of viable builds per a class."

The italized comment is a problem with power gamer mentalities and not with actual mechanics.  The character I play is proof to this; 28 point elven sorcerer, light armor profecientcy & weapon finesse Feats, 46 ubuffed AC, no spell failure, Action Points maxed out fire/cold dmg, 30% Acid, full enhancement line of Maximize Metamagic effecientcy, nothing spent on Arcan Fludity.  It's not difficult to visualize this build and say "wtf!?!?" although I generally get an equally resounding "WTF!!!" when others play with me for the first time and see how effecient the character actually is.  Now, I'll be the first to point out there's lot's of flaws with my character even though I made it when the game launched and my only knowlegde of DDO was from the AD&D rule system.  This character has come a long way and is nothing compared to how it was originally spec'd out or how I percieved it, it was built and fine tuned around my playstyle.  My point is: There's More Then One Way To Skin A Cat.

The "Viable Builds" you speak of are more likely "fotm" builds and do nothing to suit a playstyle while only serve to exploit the holes in the game mechanics.  For some reason I'm thinking of Defense Stackers in pre-cu SWG or Nano Ships in EVE Online and I'm sure anyone can give equal comparrisons - Evasion Builds in DDO.  These things generally come to pass...   

In all fairness, I believe Levsix's statement "Once you've played the game a while you realize there are only a handful of viable builds " is more relative to a playstyle then anything else because the worst player with the best build is still bound to have massive problems.  Those enforcing that there's only one way to play a character are also likely to be in the area of Min/Max character builds.  There's nothing wrong with it, but it's easy to forget how many play simply for fun and a Halfing Wizard with a Greatsword just might be what you enjoy playing.  

p.s. Theme Guilds!    Last one I was in we had the requirement that everyone used a Repeating Crossbow.  Lots of fun and loads of laughs.  :D

Speaking of themed guilds.. for some time now, I have been wanting to start a Nekkid Troubadours Guild. No armor, no robes... but people just don't want to try it.... Maybe it's my nekkid female dwarven rogue. Hmmm....

Back to the drawing board.

Originally posted by Mystincloud

Speaking of themed guilds.. for some time now, I have been wanting to start a Nekkid Troubadours Guild. No armor, no robes... but people just don't want to try it.... Maybe it's my nekkid female dwarven rogue. Hmmm....

Back to the drawing board.

Cuz Human men look  (and run) ugly, and for the dwarves...shudder!

Of course, I'm a girl...

Originally posted by Doctorwhofan

Cuz Human men look  (and run) ugly, and for the dwarves...shudder!

 

Of course, I'm a girl...

Ummm... I am also a gamer girl... For those who do not play DDO and want to try it... I warn you now! There are alot of ladies in the game and we kick booty!

Originally posted by Mystincloud

Originally posted by Doctorwhofan

Cuz Human men look  (and run) ugly, and for the dwarves...shudder!

 

Of course, I'm a girl...

 

Ummm... I am also a gamer girl... For those who do not play DDO and want to try it... I warn you now! There are alot of ladies in the game and we kick booty!

BWAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!!  Women RULEZ!!!

Well, not that childish but there is alot of women players in the game.

Originally posted by Doctorwhofan

Originally posted by Mystincloud

Originally posted by Doctorwhofan

Cuz Human men look  (and run) ugly, and for the dwarves...shudder!

Of course, I'm a girl...

Ummm... I am also a gamer girl... For those who do not play DDO and want to try it... I warn you now! There are alot of ladies in the game and we kick booty!

BWAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!!  Women RULEZ!!!

Well, not that childish but there is alot of women players in the game.

Which one of you has the pet chicken!! There's this gal who plays on Ghallanda, it's been a while since I've grouped with her, and there would always be this manic sounding chicken in the background making all kinds of noise.  :D

Yeah, there's a lot of female gamers who actively play DDO.  Ghallanda used to have regular Ladies Only groups during the evenings - don't let them kid you they're getting sloshed on their white zin!