I don't know why you guys keep arguing with people like WSIMike. If something about the game doesn't meet their standard then it's crap and only drooling idiots, kids and lesser creatures would ever consider it fun, much less play it. If you try to debate him you're an idiot. If you point out it's just his opinion and he's being an elitist ass, then you're incapable of understanding the true nature of his message and are deserving of nothing but ridicule. There is a perfect reality in their minds that only the true MMO player can comprehend and the rest of you are just ruinous troglodytes to their enlightened world. Anything you say against them is by default, wrong.

Originally posted by WSIMike

Originally posted by Meridion

Originally posted by WSIMike

The problem is, pro death penalty players tend to stamp games with no death penalty as "inherently less fun" which is apparently not true. theres not a whole new generation of MMO players enjoying themselves less than the "generation UO"...

Because it's a very different generation of players playing the newer MMOs with very different expectations.

There's entire paragraphs I could write about the differences between them. But I won't...

I'll just put it this way...

You have the old-school MMO players, many of whom are still happily playing the same MMOs they started years ago, with no intention of leaving - no matter what snazzy new game is coming down the pike, vying for their attention.

Meanwhile, you have the post-WoW "new generation" of MMO players. This generation seems to be steadily turning into one of career MMO hoppers. They stick around in a game just long enough to burn through all the content - 2-3 months it seems. Then they declare the game "dead" or "dying",  jump ship for whatever the hottest new MMO is... They stick around for a few months, burn through all the content in that game, and get bored. They declare that game "dead" or "dying", and look for the next MMO to jump ship to... ad infinitum.

I think the difference there is very telling of just how the different mindsets affect the individuals' ability to enjoy the game, and which is getting the most enjoyment for their money in the long run.

Just a thought :).

That's what I'm talking about. Veteran players tend to project their issues with newer games and the "cookie cutter no fun"-agenda on the games. _The Games_ need to be sandbox style. _The Games_ need to feature harsh death penalties.

The majority of those people ignores that there are Many quality games out, and people are enjoying them a lot. So it just _might_ have something to do with their own mindset.

Besides, I know that you can do low risk activities in all MMOs, you even could use a MUD as a chat client. I'm talking about, and I thought we were on a common base here, about competetive gameplay. About easy accessibility and a flat learning curve. And as I posted earlier, this is perfect fun in many many shooters. Log on, fight, die, fight, die, log out. fun.

I'll repeat the essence of this: There are a LOT of quality, fun games out. The cookie-cutter-problem is in the heads of the jaded vets.

M

Wow. On the one hand you say they are his opinions and the other hand you call him names.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

If you have an opinion that there should be no death penalty that's fine.  I think your wrong, but your entitled to have that opinion.

If you have an opinion that the game should have a harsh death penalty that's fine too.  I think your right, and your entitled to have that opinion.

My argument is that the developer community should try to make alternatives for people who want a more harsh environment.  And because world of warcraft makes so much money, you won't see many devs go that route.

They wanna see dollar signs, which is their goal being a business.

It's just a shame that a segment of the gaming community isn't satisfied by newer games because its the older ones with actual difficulty that meet their needs.

Originally posted by Dreadlich

I don't know why you guys keep arguing with people like WSIMike. If something about the game doesn't meet their standard then it's crap and only drooling idiots, kids and lesser creatures would ever consider it fun, much less play it. If you try to debate him you're an idiot. If you point out it's just his opinion and he's being an elitist ass, then you're incapable of understanding the true nature of his message and are deserving of nothing but ridicule. There is a perfect reality in their minds that only the true MMO player can comprehend and the rest of you are just ruinous troglodytes to their enlightened world. Anything you say against them is by default, wrong.

I'm argueing because my mining circle is three minutes and I'm not staring at a floating mining ship for three minutes doing nothing ^^... So either I continue reading this book here on the table or I browse these boards and discuss things. ATM, the latter is more fun...

M

Originally posted by xenogias

Figured I would pop back in here since the thread hasnt died yet. Like I said before, I have played harsh DP's in games and yes, I loved it and will not deny that. Hell, if Asherons Call updated its graphics, whiped the slate clean (character wise), hired the old writers/devs back I would drop WAR in a heartbeat to go back and im REALLY enjoying WAR. OH and they would have to get rid of the retarted ass arc spells, thats when PvP became less about skill and more about who is going to lag first.

 I dont mind harsh death penalties in the least. The only thing that pisses me off is the ones that come here like the OP and talk bs about how its not worth playing without harsh DP's. In AC and EQ the game was made where harsh DP's worked. In games like DAoC and WAR harsh DP's just wont work. IMO its not because you wont "learn your class" better or "Wont get the fear feeling" but because your going to die, and die lots. No way around it. You could be the BEST PvP'er and your going to die alot. Just alittle less than the next person.

Need a reason to learn your class to the fullest? Thats why they have a certain feature (unless its been removed and I missed it or they havent said yet) that the top guilds and if I remember right top players in RR rank will be featured in Tier4 keep area's. Your not going to get thoes honors unless you are the best and that takes teamwork and knowing your class AND other classes like the back of your hand.

Anyway this "I'm right and your wrong" crap can stop. Neither side is right or wrong. The only diffrence it one side has more numbers than the other. Some of us are stuck in the middle where we like both ways but understand it has no place in some games and have fun with both. *shrug*

What pisses me off is people like you who dont read the whole thread and flame the OP.
 

I am the OP, the whole point of this thread which you can clearly see on Page 1 is I wanted to know what the Death Penatly was... I found out, I stated that I would pass on the game as would gamers like myself that enjoy risk as part of their MMO games.    I said the game TO ME would not be fun without a DP, never said WAR would not be fun... Its the people like you and others that come in long after the thread should have died can call me and others with my same opnion an elitiest asshole or a hardcore game because to ME any game without a DP would not be fun.   I do think of myself as a hardcore game because of the amount of time I spend playing games and for no other reason.

You guys need to chill out, I simply asked a question and once I read the answer, I posted my personal choice on the game... It has nothing to do with the game it self which I hope is great and tons of people enjoy.  For me WAR will not be fun, FOR me any game without a harsh DP is not worth my time..... It has nothing to do with what is fun for you or others, it has to do with if its fun for ME.

Again dont put words in my mouth.... I never said WAR would be crap or not fun... I said it would not be fun for me.... Do you understand the difference?

This thread should have died after page 1 because that is all I needed to know, then it turned into this bullshit debate about DP's,  who cares, play the game that is fun for you... WAR will simply not be fun for me, thats to bad for me.   I really dont care what you find fun that was not the point of this thread.

WAR will not be fun FOR ME, I hope you all enjoy it, I hope it is successful, I really do hope it is because we all know we as gamers have earned the right for another great game because of all the crappy games we had to put up with over the last few years.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by 123123456202

i wish PvE had a harsher one but PvP really shouldnt have a death penalty in my opinion so except for the easy penalty for pve they made the right decision because i think you will be dieing alot more often than you are use to in an MMO

 

To say you will die more often then other MMOs is just stupid.   WAR is not the first to PvP or RvR so dont talk out of your ass.

PvE and PvP should have the same penalty, if you die, you die period, it should hurt, it should make you fear dieing.  You as a player should want to do everything in your power to advoid death... Ever Play EQ1, The good players were easy as hell to point out due to the Death penalty.

Before you all start going off the deep end on how EQ1's death penalty was nothing but a time sink remember the whole point of any MMO is a time sink, to get the player to pay to play longer is the goal after all.

No Death Penatly for PvP is crap, ruins any chance of WAR being fun for myself and gamers like me who want Risk back in our games.

No risk is worthless in MMOs. All you have to do with no death penalty is throw body after body at the enemy until you win or they leave.  Pointless.   Zerging will be the main tactic in any open World PvP/RvR fights.

I thought you had a good point so I went back to see where the thread started going down the crapper. It was fine until someone posted this on page 1....

Originally posted by Hazmal

Well obviously nobody cares about the severe death penalty or it would be in-game.  Don't like it, move on, it is a game after all; I don't recall Mythic chaining anyone down and telling them they have to play and like it.

If you want a real harsh death penalty, go play Russian Roulet.

Yet another example of someone that does not read the whole thread before posting... I stated very clearly on page 1 that I will passing on this game.

What dont you understand?  

Originally posted by Dreadlich

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by 123123456202

i wish PvE had a harsher one but PvP really shouldnt have a death penalty in my opinion so except for the easy penalty for pve they made the right decision because i think you will be dieing alot more often than you are use to in an MMO

 

To say you will die more often then other MMOs is just stupid.   WAR is not the first to PvP or RvR so dont talk out of your ass.

PvE and PvP should have the same penalty, if you die, you die period, it should hurt, it should make you fear dieing.  You as a player should want to do everything in your power to advoid death... Ever Play EQ1, The good players were easy as hell to point out due to the Death penalty.

Before you all start going off the deep end on how EQ1's death penalty was nothing but a time sink remember the whole point of any MMO is a time sink, to get the player to pay to play longer is the goal after all.

No Death Penatly for PvP is crap, ruins any chance of WAR being fun for myself and gamers like me who want Risk back in our games.

No risk is worthless in MMOs. All you have to do with no death penalty is throw body after body at the enemy until you win or they leave.  Pointless.   Zerging will be the main tactic in any open World PvP/RvR fights.

 

I thought you had a good point so I went back to see where the thread started going down the crapper. It was fine until someone posted this on page 1....

So I am not allowed to post my opinion?  This is all about what I find fun, not what others find fun.... get a clue please... Show me where in that post I said WAR would not be fun for anyone else?

Originally posted by TdogSkal

What is the Death Penalty in WAR?

That is the deciding factor for WAR.  Does it put fear in you?  

Someone with beta knowledge please enlighting me with what happens when you die.

No it dont put you in fear. Its similar to WoW. It cannot be otherwise for such kind of game where death is most normal thing. As it say when you die "Dont worry its part of the game". Bigger death penalty will lead to more strategic battle actions like in EvE, and less pure battles that is not point of the WAR.

Originally posted by iZakaroN

Originally posted by TdogSkal

What is the Death Penalty in WAR?

That is the deciding factor for WAR.  Does it put fear in you?  

Someone with beta knowledge please enlighting me with what happens when you die.

 

No it dont put you in fear similar to WoW. It cannot be otherwise for such kind of game where death is most normal thing. As it say when you die "Dont worry its part of the game". Bigger death penalty will lead to more strategic battle actions like in EvE, and less pure battles that is not point of the WAR.

WoW did not put the fear in you either.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by Dreadlich

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by 123123456202

i wish PvE had a harsher one but PvP really shouldnt have a death penalty in my opinion so except for the easy penalty for pve they made the right decision because i think you will be dieing alot more often than you are use to in an MMO

 

To say you will die more often then other MMOs is just stupid.   WAR is not the first to PvP or RvR so dont talk out of your ass.

PvE and PvP should have the same penalty, if you die, you die period, it should hurt, it should make you fear dieing.  You as a player should want to do everything in your power to advoid death... Ever Play EQ1, The good players were easy as hell to point out due to the Death penalty.

Before you all start going off the deep end on how EQ1's death penalty was nothing but a time sink remember the whole point of any MMO is a time sink, to get the player to pay to play longer is the goal after all.

No Death Penatly for PvP is crap, ruins any chance of WAR being fun for myself and gamers like me who want Risk back in our games.

No risk is worthless in MMOs. All you have to do with no death penalty is throw body after body at the enemy until you win or they leave.  Pointless.   Zerging will be the main tactic in any open World PvP/RvR fights.

 

I thought you had a good point so I went back to see where the thread started going down the crapper. It was fine until someone posted this on page 1....

 

So I am not allowed to post my opinion?  This is all about what I find fun, not what others find fun.... get a clue please... Show me where in that post I said WAR would not be fun for anyone else?

Certainly, you can voice your opinion. I indicated that I thought you had a good point. I was responding to your scathing response to xenogias. The highlighted portion specifically.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by xenogias

Figured I would pop back in here since the thread hasnt died yet. Like I said before, I have played harsh DP's in games and yes, I loved it and will not deny that. Hell, if Asherons Call updated its graphics, whiped the slate clean (character wise), hired the old writers/devs back I would drop WAR in a heartbeat to go back and im REALLY enjoying WAR. OH and they would have to get rid of the retarted ass arc spells, thats when PvP became less about skill and more about who is going to lag first.

 I dont mind harsh death penalties in the least. The only thing that pisses me off is the ones that come here like the OP and talk bs about how its not worth playing without harsh DP's. In AC and EQ the game was made where harsh DP's worked. In games like DAoC and WAR harsh DP's just wont work. IMO its not because you wont "learn your class" better or "Wont get the fear feeling" but because your going to die, and die lots. No way around it. You could be the BEST PvP'er and your going to die alot. Just alittle less than the next person.

Need a reason to learn your class to the fullest? Thats why they have a certain feature (unless its been removed and I missed it or they havent said yet) that the top guilds and if I remember right top players in RR rank will be featured in Tier4 keep area's. Your not going to get thoes honors unless you are the best and that takes teamwork and knowing your class AND other classes like the back of your hand.

Anyway this "I'm right and your wrong" crap can stop. Neither side is right or wrong. The only diffrence it one side has more numbers than the other. Some of us are stuck in the middle where we like both ways but understand it has no place in some games and have fun with both. *shrug*

What pisses me off is people like you who dont read the whole thread and flame the OP.
 

I am the OP, the whole point of this thread which you can clearly see on Page 1 is I wanted to know what the Death Penatly was... I found out, I stated that I would pass on the game as would gamers like myself that enjoy risk as part of their MMO games.    I said the game TO ME would not be fun without a DP, never said WAR would not be fun... Its the people like you and others that come in long after the thread should have died can call me and others with my same opnion an elitiest asshole or a hardcore game because to ME any game without a DP would not be fun.   I do think of myself as a hardcore game because of the amount of time I spend playing games and for no other reason.

You guys need to chill out, I simply asked a question and once I read the answer, I posted my personal choice on the game... It has nothing to do with the game it self which I hope is great and tons of people enjoy.  For me WAR will not be fun, FOR me any game without a harsh DP is not worth my time..... It has nothing to do with what is fun for you or others, it has to do with if its fun for ME.

Again dont put words in my mouth.... I never said WAR would be crap or not fun... I said it would not be fun for me.... Do you understand the difference?

This thread should have died after page 1 because that is all I needed to know, then it turned into this bullshit debate about DP's,  who cares, play the game that is fun for you... WAR will simply not be fun for me, thats to bad for me.   I really dont care what you find fun that was not the point of this thread.

WAR will not be fun FOR ME, I hope you all enjoy it, I hope it is successful, I really do hope it is because we all know we as gamers have earned the right for another great game because of all the crappy games we had to put up with over the last few years.

Just pointing out your culpability in the matter.

Originally posted by Dreadlich

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by Dreadlich

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by 123123456202

i wish PvE had a harsher one but PvP really shouldnt have a death penalty in my opinion so except for the easy penalty for pve they made the right decision because i think you will be dieing alot more often than you are use to in an MMO

 

To say you will die more often then other MMOs is just stupid.   WAR is not the first to PvP or RvR so dont talk out of your ass.

PvE and PvP should have the same penalty, if you die, you die period, it should hurt, it should make you fear dieing.  You as a player should want to do everything in your power to advoid death... Ever Play EQ1, The good players were easy as hell to point out due to the Death penalty.

Before you all start going off the deep end on how EQ1's death penalty was nothing but a time sink remember the whole point of any MMO is a time sink, to get the player to pay to play longer is the goal after all.

No Death Penatly for PvP is crap, ruins any chance of WAR being fun for myself and gamers like me who want Risk back in our games.

No risk is worthless in MMOs. All you have to do with no death penalty is throw body after body at the enemy until you win or they leave.  Pointless.   Zerging will be the main tactic in any open World PvP/RvR fights.

 

I thought you had a good point so I went back to see where the thread started going down the crapper. It was fine until someone posted this on page 1....

 

So I am not allowed to post my opinion?  This is all about what I find fun, not what others find fun.... get a clue please... Show me where in that post I said WAR would not be fun for anyone else?

 

Certainly, you can voice your opinion. I indicated that I thought you had a good point. I was responding to your scathing response to xenogias. The highlighted portion specifically.

 

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by xenogias

Figured I would pop back in here since the thread hasnt died yet. Like I said before, I have played harsh DP's in games and yes, I loved it and will not deny that. Hell, if Asherons Call updated its graphics, whiped the slate clean (character wise), hired the old writers/devs back I would drop WAR in a heartbeat to go back and im REALLY enjoying WAR. OH and they would have to get rid of the retarted ass arc spells, thats when PvP became less about skill and more about who is going to lag first.

 I dont mind harsh death penalties in the least. The only thing that pisses me off is the ones that come here like the OP and talk bs about how its not worth playing without harsh DP's. In AC and EQ the game was made where harsh DP's worked. In games like DAoC and WAR harsh DP's just wont work. IMO its not because you wont "learn your class" better or "Wont get the fear feeling" but because your going to die, and die lots. No way around it. You could be the BEST PvP'er and your going to die alot. Just alittle less than the next person.

Need a reason to learn your class to the fullest? Thats why they have a certain feature (unless its been removed and I missed it or they havent said yet) that the top guilds and if I remember right top players in RR rank will be featured in Tier4 keep area's. Your not going to get thoes honors unless you are the best and that takes teamwork and knowing your class AND other classes like the back of your hand.

Anyway this "I'm right and your wrong" crap can stop. Neither side is right or wrong. The only diffrence it one side has more numbers than the other. Some of us are stuck in the middle where we like both ways but understand it has no place in some games and have fun with both. *shrug*

What pisses me off is people like you who dont read the whole thread and flame the OP.
 

I am the OP, the whole point of this thread which you can clearly see on Page 1 is I wanted to know what the Death Penatly was... I found out, I stated that I would pass on the game as would gamers like myself that enjoy risk as part of their MMO games.    I said the game TO ME would not be fun without a DP, never said WAR would not be fun... Its the people like you and others that come in long after the thread should have died can call me and others with my same opnion an elitiest asshole or a hardcore game because to ME any game without a DP would not be fun.   I do think of myself as a hardcore game because of the amount of time I spend playing games and for no other reason.

You guys need to chill out, I simply asked a question and once I read the answer, I posted my personal choice on the game... It has nothing to do with the game it self which I hope is great and tons of people enjoy.  For me WAR will not be fun, FOR me any game without a harsh DP is not worth my time..... It has nothing to do with what is fun for you or others, it has to do with if its fun for ME.

Again dont put words in my mouth.... I never said WAR would be crap or not fun... I said it would not be fun for me.... Do you understand the difference?

This thread should have died after page 1 because that is all I needed to know, then it turned into this bullshit debate about DP's,  who cares, play the game that is fun for you... WAR will simply not be fun for me, thats to bad for me.   I really dont care what you find fun that was not the point of this thread.

WAR will not be fun FOR ME, I hope you all enjoy it, I hope it is successful, I really do hope it is because we all know we as gamers have earned the right for another great game because of all the crappy games we had to put up with over the last few years.

Just pointing out your culpability in the matter.

I agree I did have a part in causing this debate but I still dont see in that post you quoted were I attacked him or WAR... Again I provided my opinion on why I want a DP in any game I play.

Again The point I am making is that never did I say WAR in general would not be fun, never did I say WAR in general would be a shitty game.... I simply stated that for me WAR would not be fun and I was called an elitist asshole.

It might have already been mentioned, but because I'm to lazy to read through all the pages of these threads I'm going to say it anyway. Pirates of the Burning Sea had a somewhat harsh death penalty. You die you lose your ship, your inventory, etc. Look at where that game is now? It's a game full of gankers and greifers running around until they find a fight they can win with numbers or levels, and running from the ones they can't.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by Hazmal

Well obviously nobody cares about the severe death penalty or it would be in-game.  Don't like it, move on, it is a game after all; I don't recall Mythic chaining anyone down and telling them they have to play and like it.

If you want a real harsh death penalty, go play Russian Roulet.

 

Yet another example of someone that does not read the whole thread before posting... I stated very clearly on page 1 that I will passing on this game.

What dont you understand?  

Yet another person that thinks the world revolves around them, if I was speaking directly to you I would have quoted you.  What don't you understand about that?  This your first forum or something?

Originally posted by Hazmal

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by Hazmal

Well obviously nobody cares about the severe death penalty or it would be in-game.  Don't like it, move on, it is a game after all; I don't recall Mythic chaining anyone down and telling them they have to play and like it.

If you want a real harsh death penalty, go play Russian Roulet.

 

Yet another example of someone that does not read the whole thread before posting... I stated very clearly on page 1 that I will passing on this game.

What dont you understand?  

 

Yet another person that thinks the world revolves around them, if I was speaking directly to you I would have quoted you.  What don't you understand about that?  This your first forum or something?

No the world does not revolve around me but this thread does since I started it.   Obviously people do care about the Death Penatly.
 

I was pointing out that I already said I was going to move on, why post something like this if you are not talking about the people that disagree with Mythics choice?

Originally posted by WoWarhammer

 Regardless of your age, you are a complete moron.

Regardless of your age, this was uncalled for...and hypocritical.  You take issue with someone's elitism by acting elitist yourself, placing yourself above others and calling someone a degrading name.  If you have a sense of compassion, dignity and self-respect, I think an apology would be in order.

Honestly, why do you guys need the game to enforce a death penalty on you?

If you want it hard, then delete an item from your equipped inventory when you die.  Sure, it doesn't effect anyone else, but you're pushing for your own fun, not theirs.  Or sit out of the game for 10 minutes.  Don't release your soul from death, wait for someone to rez you.

Get enough people together to sign a petition, ask for this magical FFA PVP Harsh Death server that everyone seems to be dying for (no pun intended).  The worst they will say is no.

Originally posted by Rumors

Honestly, why do you guys need the game to enforce a death penalty on you?

If you want it hard, then delete an item from your equipped inventory when you die.  Sure, it doesn't effect anyone else, but you're pushing for your own fun, not theirs.  Or sit out of the game for 10 minutes.  Don't release your soul from death, wait for someone to rez you.

Get enough people together to sign a petition, ask for this magical FFA PVP Harsh Death server that everyone seems to be dying for (no pun intended).  The worst they will say is no.

I dont want to change Mythic's mind, it was there choice and I respect there choice,  All it means is that I will pass on this game... no biggy, another game will come along that fits the bill for me.

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by Rumors

Honestly, why do you guys need the game to enforce a death penalty on you?

If you want it hard, then delete an item from your equipped inventory when you die.  Sure, it doesn't effect anyone else, but you're pushing for your own fun, not theirs.  Or sit out of the game for 10 minutes.  Don't release your soul from death, wait for someone to rez you.

Get enough people together to sign a petition, ask for this magical FFA PVP Harsh Death server that everyone seems to be dying for (no pun intended).  The worst they will say is no.

 

I dont want to change Mythic's mind, it was there choice and I respect there choice,  All it means is that I will pass on this game... no biggy, another game will come along that fits the bill for me.

 

You refuse to play WAR because you can fight rvr constantly without thinking omg it takes too long to be worth it? Wow. Also, the OP got his answer and this thread has gone way off topic, time to let it die now.
 

Great another game of domino's then huh that blows I was actually gonna buy this at launch but now I am hesitant due to the rinse repeat scenario I see coming now. Here is how battle will go once the general populace gets in game.

1.Group a charges

2. Group B charges

3. whatever group takes more life wins due to morons running in solo in a long line of moronic Domino's and dies one by one till objectives are complete. You want an example go look at wow the insta re-spawn after dead was the MMORPG downfall.

Even in UO they has mechanics to make even a run to the healer hurt even if the healers where only 1 minute away from the fight. cause you still had to get to your body and get your stuff (if it wasent looted) or insured for those that stuck around after the debacle. As a mage type to get to your body and find you had no regents (used for casting)was a thrill cause if your teamtes where good they knew to try and keep people away from your corpse.

INSTA RESPAWNS FTL!!!!!!!

Make my healers res my ass make people look out for each other makes these damn games good again. To give insta res is to say to every dont give a crap about anyone on your team cause even if he dies he will bb in no time.

Long gone are the day's of cross healing in game's I suppose. The only place you see real healing is in damn raids and such. Even in the dreaded WOW ya you occasionally see some good pvp healers but few and far between.

Bring back team pvp and dependence on others. stop with this solo fight and die shit!!!!

GOD I'm starting to think I'm getting to old for these games. Im starting to sound like my grandad saying ",you think you got it tough I used to walk to school in 6 ft of snow going uphill both way's!"