Originally posted by Raenz  

AoC's gender differences in DPS were not intentional....but a result of MOCAP talent used to create the weapon attacks.  They explained this several times.

I'm torn on the whole G.I.R.L. initiative thing from SOE.  It's one thing to encourage women to get into the game industry, it's another to give them preferential treatment because of their gender.

Thats my point, like I said I'm female and I positively hate it when folks regardless of their qualifications and merits/capabilities are given a job because it either makes the employer look good or they are simply making up their needed quota to keep the powers that be happy (ie government).

There is nothing stopping a group of like minded women getting together and forming a software development company should they want to.  Major companies nowadays are painfully aware of the damage a discrimination case could do for business, regardless of  whether the case is warranted or not.

I think if anyone but SOE (or any other big company) was behind this,  then I'd probably take more note.  As it stands it sounds like just another think tank (says a lot, accomplishes nothing).

I'm sure this is an eye opener for many male players to realize that women DO play, HAVE played for years and will CONTINUE to play video games. I'm 49 this year and an avid fan of EQ2. I have met so many like me that play and some who are afraid to tell people they are women or even older women because they are either not believed or out  of fear the other gamers won't treat them normally.  But this is not what the article is about exactly is it. I quote from the article;

"No one likes to be pigeon-holed and women want to have the choice of being able to decide if they wanted an avatar that was a little older, a little pudgy, or a skinny Barbie with ridiculous measurements, and how it was dressed, but they wanted choice in games where that type of customization was touted."

GIVE ME A CHOICE SOE!  The technology is there. If you can create so much wonderful content why can't I roll play the image I wish to project not one limited by such simple standards created by i have no clue who.

Thank you, Off my soap box now.

Originally posted by Raenz

I'm torn on the whole G.I.R.L. initiative thing from SOE.  It's one thing to encourage women to get into the game industry, it's another to give them preferential treatment because of their gender.

dis·crim·i·na·tion 

 (d-skrm-nshn)

n.

3. Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice:

By that definition though, 90% of scholarships given out are discriminatory.  All scholarships have parameters and those are based on what that particular foundation / group providing the scholarship is trying to accomplish.  There are few scholarships that are provided for study in any field in the winner's school of choice and based on individual merit alone.

Take any of the sport scholarships.  Why football?  Why not tiddlywinks?  (as an extreme example)

When this first scholarship was announced, there were cries of "Why not MY college?" and "How come they are discriminating against foreign students?"  etc. etc.

i think i am fairly screwed on the whole meeting your soul mate at work.  i do plan on entering the Games development world eventually and it does seem very male dominated.  coming from 2 workplaces dominated by women it may take some getting used to (out of 30 employees there is me and one other guy, the rest are all girls) and i doubt the industry will ever change.

Originally posted by Abrahmm

From my experience, that program seems like a big waste of time and money. I don't know one girl in real life that actually likes video games, my gf barely has the attention span to play Pac Man(which is her favorite game btw).

Well "your experience" is very limited then.  OR, perhaps, as is often the case, you play with girls/women online who don't TELL you they are female BECAUSE of the ridiculous amount of sexism from male gamers....which you're just further proving with the above statement.  There has been plenty of research that shows just how MANY female gamers there are, and a good lot of them play MMOs and FPS, such as Unreal and CS Source.  So while YOU may not personally know "one girl in real life that actually likes video games"....I ASSURE you....there are plenty of us.

Incidentally, I'm female (in case you hadn't guessed) and I HATE PacMan.  I think that is one of the most mindless idiotic games ever invented.  I am, by NO means a "casual" gamer, and oddly enough, I know more WOMEN that play video games than men.  And I DON'T mean "Monkey Ball" and "Super Mario Smash Brothers" either.  Your comment really pissed me off, in case you can't tell.  Your girlfriend's "attention span" doesn't reflect the general female gamer population.  Maybe your girlfriend's just not very bright?

* takes cover from the fallout from the post above*

seriously though its a good program.  i think other studios should get over their fear of female developers and create more programs like it.  i dont see why a company of 5/20/50/200 can't be at least 1/4 female, they just need the right encouragement (scholarships, pay, working hours, support, advertising)

Personally, I think if female *gamers* want to see more games geared at them, they need to push to get it. By either getting into the industry themselves... in a capacity to make those changes. OR, get active on the sidelines at forums and beta tests and such to let those making the games know that there is a chunk of prospective customers out there who may want something a little different.

And I read fast, so i might have missed it... but I didn't notice in this "there aren't many women game *designers*" whine, any mention of a WONDERFUL female game designer who used to routinely teach the guys a lesson or three in how to make a good game that was more than run through mazes or shoot everything that moves. Roberta Williams was, IMO one of THE premier game designers back when folks were craving something outside the typical arcade faire. And while the graphics are more than a little dated, her games are still playable, fun and in decent demand on retro sites.

If girl-gamers want to see a change, they need to do like in any other instance when conversing with men... speak up, in plain simple terms spelling out what they want. Hinting around ain't gonna do it.. no moreso than mentioning that "winter is just a few months away, and I hate cleaning snow off my car" will get the garage cleaned. He'll just think you're complaining... and unreasonably too because winter is MONTHS away yet. If anything, you might get a nifty new window scraper thing so you won't have to worry about not being prepared.

Originally posted by JYCowboy

 I would like to see a dominately female design and development team assigned to come up with a new game. 

To have a team of any kind dominated by any gender is just wrong. The key to a succesful team is diversity. And not only diversity of gender or culture but diversity of opinion. An all male design team is missing valuable input from one half of society. The same goes for a team dominated by women. You need to know your strengths and weaknessess and build a team accordingly in order to fill competancy gaps. Diversity of opinion is very important and having male and female designers on a team would help pick up the slack where male designers are lacking.

Keep in mind, the answer is not to ask women how to make traditionally male dominated games more appealing to the female demograhpic. The answer is to create a diverse design team that makes games that appeal to both sexes.

Dev

Diversity is one thing, but ever hear the phrase "too many cooks spoil the broth"?

We need diversity in the *industry*, NOT on every design team. All games would start to look and play the same. While I don't play testosterone fueled FPS games, I wouldn't want them to be watered down by an overly diverse team for more general appeal. And I might regret saying it, but neither would I want to see an end to the excessively feminine pink & purple box variety of games like Barbie & her horse, or whatever.

There is an audience for ALL of these variations... otherwise who made them? Someone had to think it was a good idea... and they still exist, so they are being bought, and presumably played.

Diversity in game design is creating niches, and seeing if they grow, at least to a sustainable size. And to create a niche where there wasn't one, is to come up with an original idea/concept. The best way to do this, is to bring together a team of minds that haven't tried to think of a game as a group before. If a team has been all men, then yes, bringing in a female perspective could make significant waves in the trains of thought and create something very new and different... or she thinks like they do already, which is why she's there, and nothing much changes. The diversity comes not from any generic classification of gender or race or such, but from the individual. So a company that truely cared about putting diversity in their designers would examine their creative capacity, their likes and dislikes, their lateral thinking and logic skills, their artistic and aesthetic views... not whether they have bumpy bits or dangly parts.

Originally posted by I_Love_Candy

Diversity is one thing, but ever hear the phrase "too many cooks spoil the broth"?

We need diversity in the *industry*, NOT on every design team. All games would start to look and play the same. While I don't play testosterone fueled FPS games, I wouldn't want them to be watered down by an overly diverse team for more general appeal. And I might regret saying it, but neither would I want to see an end to the excessively feminine pink & purple box variety of games like Barbie & her horse, or whatever.

There is an audience for ALL of these variations... otherwise who made them? Someone had to think it was a good idea... and they still exist, so they are being bought, and presumably played.

 

Diversity in game design is creating niches, and seeing if they grow, at least to a sustainable size. And to create a niche where there wasn't one, is to come up with an original idea/concept. The best way to do this, is to bring together a team of minds that haven't tried to think of a game as a group before. If a team has been all men, then yes, bringing in a female perspective could make significant waves in the trains of thought and create something very new and different... or she thinks like they do already, which is why she's there, and nothing much changes. The diversity comes not from any generic classification of gender or race or such, but from the individual. So a company that truely cared about putting diversity in their designers would examine their creative capacity, their likes and dislikes, their lateral thinking and logic skills, their artistic and aesthetic views... not whether they have bumpy bits or dangly parts.

I’m not sure if you read the article in question, but if so you missed the main point about diversity in game design teams- it is specifically in game design where women are not only wanted, but also needed. In fact, it’s the main focus of the Sony initiative and what we are discussing here.

To quote the article:

“Isn’t there a large number of women working in the gaming industry already?”

The answer was “Yes, but not in game design.”

As for the “pink and purple” and “Barbie dolls and her horse” comment, yes I’m sure you will regret saying it ;p It’s precisely that Cro-Magnon mentality that maintains the barrier to women being accepted as game designers.

The points you make about diversity are all true, but once again you missed the point. Anyone who has read an article on multiple intelligence theory as it pertains to teambuilding is aware of all the factors involved, the point we are specifically concerned with here is most definitely gender diversity.

Finally, Sony are smart enough to realize that, at the rate the video game industry is growing, surpassing most other entertainment industries combined by billions of dollars, they had better start breaking the anachronistic male dominated business and development model. The wise game company understands that women will play a major role in the future of the video game industry, not only as consumers but also as designers, so they plan for the future instead of falling behind. The fact we are all reading an article about one of the giants in the industry creating incentives for women to become game designers is all the proof needed. After all, men created Barbie dolls for girls because that’s what we wanted them to be when they grow up; why not let women decide for themselves and give them an equal shot since they are already a disadvantage. We have pushed them away; we need to take a step back.

Dev

Originally posted by Devros

Originally posted by JYCowboy

 I would like to see a dominately female design and development team assigned to come up with a new game. 

 

To have a team of any kind dominated by any gender is just wrong. The key to a succesful team is diversity. And not only diversity of gender or culture but diversity of opinion. An all male design team is missing valuable input from one half of society. The same goes for a team dominated by women. You need to know your strengths and weaknessess and build a team accordingly in order to fill competancy gaps. Diversity of opinion is very important and having male and female designers on a team would help pick up the slack where male designers are lacking.

Keep in mind, the answer is not to ask women how to make traditionally male dominated games more appealing to the female demograhpic. The answer is to create a diverse design team that makes games that appeal to both sexes.

 

Dev

Yours is the way SOE is trying to go.  Before, it was pretty much dominated by guys.  You miss the point with my statment.  Win or Fail, getting an example of a team of gals would give an indication what the other extreme would be. 
 

The Libra in me is all for balance and diversity of the team as you wish for.  But it would be a new example of team design coming from a group of dedicated gals with all the skills needed.  In that case, you might find the male addition would be a obstical to the final outcome.

Hey Dev, I did read the article and I was aiming my comment at it.

First: my main points were to not insist on putting a female on every team, I don't feel it is necessary and would actually be damaging in the long run by allowing less variety because the current heavy-end of the spectrum would be watered down ...and that variety is good, even if we don't personally like all of it.

Now, as for you quoting to respond to me and then pulling from the article as if I missed it... I KNOW THERE AREN'T A LOT OF WOMEN IN GAME DESIGN. But that DOESN'T mean there aren't any NOR does it mean to try to quota them in if they don't belong or want to be there. If a woman wants to be in game design, great, let her! But if she LIKES where she's at in the industry... don't try to shove her onto a team just to show the public you're trying to get more into equality or something, hoping her opinions and work would still produce good games.

"Women will play a major role in the future of the game industry.." I believe I was trying to point out that we already HAD. My example was a female game designer who I believe made a HUGE impact in the gaming world including opening some floodgates for the adventure genre that now fills much of the shelves. I was stating that it doesn't have to be forced, mandated, etc... if a woman *wants* to make games then simply allow her the opportunity, don't just shove a female into the design team.

I only regret saying I would hate to see those pink & purple boxes gone, because in my heart I know the loss of diversity, even stuff I hate, is a bad thing. I totally agree that they are created by a Cro-Magnon mentality... men trying to design something girls will like... and failing horribly if they are really wanting gamers. (BTW, I'm guessing you didn't notice... I'm one of those girls who has been disgusted by these feeble attempts at getting my attention for years! Just because I don't want women *ingame* to have demeaning attributes or clothing, or not be allowed a lead role instead of the healer for the muscle-bound sword swinger DOESN'T mean I want a little blonde princess playing with a virtual pony.)

Again, I did read the article, and I am all for diverse team-building, as I stated... my issue was that they were describing making this new diverse team a coockie cutter for all their teams, which puts us right back were we were with a lack of diversity if their point of reference is gender.

They would do more to build better games for GAMERS than for males or females. Find out what "FPS gamers" want... and put together a team for that. Find out what "Sim gamers" want and put together a team for that. When it comes to gamers, yes there is a difference between males and females, but it's more in the types of games we play (on average) than any particular elements. As a Girl Gamer, I beg that you don't change my games, just make them better at what they are!

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wile i applaud women in going for game design if they want it quotarising (yes i just made that word up) the industry is not going to work and this is a form of making a quota they are saying we want this many female designers to be employed this period of time at least

im a female pilot and we were quotarised hell i was taken from being a fighter pilot to a transport pilot because there wernt enough female transport pilots
and it didn't work well because we didn't like what we were doing and we burned out faster than the people wanted to do it so the males in charge decided that women wernt cut out to be pilots and the attitude got worse

now i accept that may just be an extreme case of the problem but it could happen especially in games since i have found it very sexist hell i some times hide the fact im a female gamer

so i believe that this scholarship could have some negative effects the industry some care must be taken so that these are reduced and it actually achieves the aim it was intended to achieve i personally think a scholar ship is not the way to do it

Originally posted by I_Love_Candy

Hey Dev, I did read the article and I was aiming my comment at it.

First: my main points were to not insist on putting a female on every team, I don't feel it is necessary and would actually be damaging in the long run by allowing less variety because the current heavy-end of the spectrum would be watered down ...and that variety is good, even if we don't personally like all of it.

Now, as for you quoting to respond to me and then pulling from the article as if I missed it... I KNOW THERE AREN'T A LOT OF WOMEN IN GAME DESIGN. But that DOESN'T mean there aren't any NOR does it mean to try to quota them in if they don't belong or want to be there. If a woman wants to be in game design, great, let her! But if she LIKES where she's at in the industry... don't try to shove her onto a team just to show the public you're trying to get more into equality or something, hoping her opinions and work would still produce good games.

"Women will play a major role in the future of the game industry.." I believe I was trying to point out that we already HAD. My example was a female game designer who I believe made a HUGE impact in the gaming world including opening some floodgates for the adventure genre that now fills much of the shelves. I was stating that it doesn't have to be forced, mandated, etc... if a woman *wants* to make games then simply allow her the opportunity, don't just shove a female into the design team.

I only regret saying I would hate to see those pink & purple boxes gone, because in my heart I know the loss of diversity, even stuff I hate, is a bad thing. I totally agree that they are created by a Cro-Magnon mentality... men trying to design something girls will like... and failing horribly if they are really wanting gamers. (BTW, I'm guessing you didn't notice... I'm one of those girls who has been disgusted by these feeble attempts at getting my attention for years! Just because I don't want women *ingame* to have demeaning attributes or clothing, or not be allowed a lead role instead of the healer for the muscle-bound sword swinger DOESN'T mean I want a little blonde princess playing with a virtual pony.)

Again, I did read the article, and I am all for diverse team-building, as I stated... my issue was that they were describing making this new diverse team a coockie cutter for all their teams, which puts us right back were we were with a lack of diversity if their point of reference is gender.

They would do more to build better games for GAMERS than for males or females. Find out what "FPS gamers" want... and put together a team for that. Find out what "Sim gamers" want and put together a team for that. When it comes to gamers, yes there is a difference between males and females, but it's more in the types of games we play (on average) than any particular elements. As a Girl Gamer, I beg that you don't change my games, just make them better at what they are!

Only took me two years to reply, but points all well taken! Have you found any new roles in games other than the traditional female clinging to the leg of the bronze Adonis or the newer "female conforming to male sterotypes" ( i.e. Skater girl, Rebel Band girl, Tomb-raider etc.) ;p

Dev