this is madness  (sorry the unintended meme)

doctors don't cause disesases

is the other way.

bad games or games with bad elements, will generate critics

Originally posted by eldanloco

Troll gets excited for WAR.

WAR releases, and Troll buys it right away.  Troll plays it for 2 weeks, compares it to WoW nonstop, and ruins his own fun.  Troll goes through the motions and some people hear his opinion and others like his and their opinions are changed about WAR.  Many people leave WAR, it becomes no longer profitable, and is forced to shut down.

thats prolly the most likely thing that will happen to WAR. loads of kiddos that love WoW will jump in the bandwagon out of pure hype,and then will rate their "experience"

people that most probably never heard about DAOC or ever played it for 5 minutes...or,if they did,they actually didnt like it.

people that would rather raid for 8 hours a day, 7 days a week, 2 months straight, for a shiny glove that would give them the shaft against a certain class,since the concept of "skill over gear" is like quantum physics for them...

people that cry and whine and moan everytime they get involved in some sort of PvP...and they are gonna play a game that is 90% based on PvP? yeah right....

WAR is gonna get a ton of horrible feedback from people who bought a product they didnt even know what was about.

and funny enough,they are gonna hate WAR exactly due to its strong points.

some people should never drop WoW.let it keep being the sinkhole for the worse of the worst of the gaming community....

So what if we started to give up our high speed internet n were forced back to dial-up. And the net companies called this an improvement? And they charged you more for the new improved dial-up internet.

Companies are dumping millions of dollars n years of time into the new MMOs. They have better teck, more educated employees, and experience from looking at past releases. Now why should we accept a worse product then 10 years ago?

Vanguard, Auto Assult, Hellgate...why did they fail? Was it cause of troll on these forums or was it cause the games were not up to par? Could it possibly have anything to do with major bugs, teck issues by programmers that rushed a product out the door to make money?

Age of Conan, why did it fail? Now I seen a few ppl claiming the forums are to blame...but seriously. How many ppl actually goto the forums? If the game lived up to it's own hype, we prolly woulda been happy with it. It's problem lies in the devs...not the forums.

EQ2 also was not a bad game...but seemed to miss the mark for alot of ppl. I never got all that interested in this game.

War...not released yet. If it comes out a buggy mess...well I hope to see ppl complaining. If I read these forums n see 90% of the talk of the game bad...I know not to bother with it.

Comparing games to WoW...players shouldn't do this. But developers should. WoW has been goin strong for years now. Any game that comes out needs to compete with WoW. Not to kill it, just compete. So games comming out today should be polished and running decently.  If that happens any game will get a loyal player base.  Devs need to look long term...not just how much they will rake in the first few months...how many players they can keep for years.

Originally posted by arcdevil

 

 

thats prolly the most likely thing that will happen to WAR. loads of kiddos that love WoW will jump in the bandwagon out of pure hype,and then will rate their "experience"

 

people that most probably never heard about DAOC or ever played it for 5 minutes...or,if they did,they actually didnt like it.

people that would rather raid for 8 hours a day, 7 days a week, 2 months straight, for a shiny glove that would give them the shaft against a certain class,since the concept of "skill over gear" is like quantum physics for them...

 

people that cry and whine and moan everytime they get involved in some sort of PvP...and they are gonna play a game that is 90% based on PvP? yeah right....

 

WAR is gonna get a ton of horrible feedback from people who bought a product they didnt even know what was about.

and funny enough,they are gonna hate WAR exactly due to its strong points.

 

some people should never drop WoW.let it keep being the sinkhole for the worse of the worst of the gaming community....

This post is so true and it's funny.   My best friend is in close beta of WAR.  He says it's great and I've heard a lot of other great reviews.  So I'm givinig it a chance.

Honestly, if all the AAA companies stopped developing  the crappy MMOs we have now it would be good for us. It would give room for small companies to develope a good MMO, like in the old days.

What you say is just the opposite of what it has to be done.

Originally posted by eldanloco

New MMO Player: "What's this WoW everyone is talking about?  I'm going to give it a try."

New MMO player discovers a game that is refined , easy to get into, but he gets bored - like any normal person would.

New MMO Player levels up to Novice MMO Player!!!!

Novice MMO Player: "I'm bored, I'm going to try something new.  Let me try this Age of Conan"

Novice  MMO player plays it for 1 day.

Novice MMO Player: "What is this crap?!  This game isn't perfect from day one?  I'm going to spread the word on forums, word of mouth, and every other form of communication I can!"

Some people hear Novice MMO Player's opinion and others like his and their opinions are changed about AoC.  Many people leave AoC, it becomes no longer profitable, and is forced to shut down.

Novice MMO Player returns to WoW to complain about his time in AoC and get his MMO fix, plays WoW for another month, and cancels his sub yet again in search of a new MMO. 

Novice MMO Player levels down to Troll.

Troll gets excited for WAR.

WAR releases, and Troll buys it right away.  Troll plays it for 2 weeks, compares it to WoW nonstop, and ruins his own fun.  Troll goes through the motions and some people hear his opinion and others like his and their opinions are changed about WAR.  Many people leave WAR, it becomes no longer profitable, and is forced to shut down.

We are caught in a vicious cycle.

Vanguard Saga of Heroes - Failed
Auto Assault - Failed
Hellgate London - Failed

Age of Conan - Getting a lot of complaints for, in my opinion, a good game.
WAR - Being compared to WoW too much.  STOP DOING THAT!
Everquest II - Came out the same time as WoW, and fell into darkness.

What do you think about this?  Am I spouting nonsense to you, or does what I say sound like the truth?  I hope you all start enjoying games more as a result by trying to have more fun.

Playing The Saga of Ryzom and enjoying it.

The negativity around AoC is Funcom's fault. There are just too many issues ( not talking about bugs ) with the game, that for me, it is not worth investing my time into it.

WAR won't have the problems that AoC had, cause it will be a finished product with interesting gameplay( as finished as an mmorpg can get :p )

greetz

I think the statement of complainers will ruin mmo's is funny.  The people who use the forums are only a small portion of the community, and just like any customer service type avenue, you really only hear from the people who like to bitch.  Take Halo3 for example.

95% of the posts on the their forums are people whining about something.  Has that game died? No, its back on the top played list for xbox live.  So although people think that the developers really care about those loud mouth complainers, they can look at tons of data to see if they are just whining, or have valid points.

Originally posted by eldanloco

Novice MMO Player: "I'm bored, I'm going to try something new.  Let me try this Age of Conan"

Novice  MMO player plays it for 1 day.

Novice MMO Player: "What is this crap?!  This game isn't perfect from day one?  I'm going to spread the word on forums, word of mouth, and every other form of communication I can!"

Some people hear Novice MMO Player's opinion and others like his and their opinions are changed about AoC.  Many people leave AoC, it becomes no longer profitable, and is forced to shut down.
 

I wonder if you realize that you are insulting the intelligence of every person who decided to leave AoC.  Do you seriously believe that the majority of people are so brain dead that they will quit a game they enjoy just because some other guy said he doensn't enjoy it?

Would you quit a game you like just because someone else said they don't like it?  No?  Then why do you assume that other people are that stupid.

What you are suggesting here is that people's like or dislike of a game is predicated on forum opinions they read and has nothing to do with the actual game itself.

Is it possible that you are putting the cart before the horse?  Maybe, just maybe, forum postings do not determine people's opinion of the quality of a game but rather the quality of a game determines what people say about it in forums.

I don't think that by simply having 100,000 people saying "this game sucks" will change anyone's opinion towards the game unless it is backed up by the reason why it sucks.  Popular opinion means nothing unless it is backed up by logic and reason.

We are not only gamers we are also consumers.  For the money we spend we should expect value.  If the value is missing we have a right to complain about it.  In fact, we don't only have a right - we have a responsibility to do so.  We owe it to the people who will also waste their money on a game that is not ready for the public.  We owe it to the company that provides the service and product so that they understand what went wrong and hopefully, if they're wise, correct the problem and never do it again.

If this means that the MMORPG doesn't survive in it's current state then so be it.  Change is needed.  The old way of doing things needs to change because consumer attitudes have changed.  We expect competence for the money we are spending.

Think about this:

You bought a ticket to a themepark for full price and when you got inside you found out that many of the rides were broken.  Shouldn't you complain?

You bought a ticket to see a movie and while you were watching the movie the screen would go to black for a few minute and the words "scene incomplete" would appear then the movie would resume but you can't follow the storyline because you're missing some of it's content.  Shouldn't you complain?

You get a rental car and the employee hands you the keys and points it out in the lot.  As you approach the car you realize the tires are flat.  You go back inside and the employee tells you that they are working on getting tires but in the mean time you should be patient with them as he hands you the receipt for the car. Shouldn't you complain?

Why are these things acceptable with MMORPGs?

I do not think that people complaining about a game being, in their opinion, bad, or lacks features and whatnot they want has much of an impact at all.

However, the case of AoC, or Vanguard, is different.

They botth were, and AoC still is, almost entirely broken upon release.

Sigil on one hand faced up to the complaints, admitting almost all their errors and stated that "either we released now, or we did not release at all".

It did not do them much good though, allthough Vanguard today is a very playable game.

Funcom took another approach, one they have taken before, total communications blackout, admit nothing, carry on the spin and if all else fails cover your ears and scream.

No doubt AoC will be a playable game down the road, funcoms other "release failure", Anarchy Online finally shaped up to be quite enjoyable, allthough as far as features and world goes AO was and most certainly is way in front of AoC.

Agree though that a MMO can not survive with the level of complaining both AoC and vanguard had, at least not lead a healthy life.

The MMO genre though, can not survive wiithout it.

The needs of the many outweighs the needs of the few and if we, by trashing companies like funcom and releases like AoC and Vanguard can make this entire bussiness just a little bit better then we are on the rigth track.

Most of the regulars in this place can see the difference between kids, ( or adults ) on a temper tantrum,  the shrills both for and against that frequent these boards, and people making honest and valid complaints.

Originally posted by Ipcryss

LOLOLOLOL, design your own game, dude.

Whoah Bro, I so am!  Gnarly huh Bill?

Originally posted by Ipcryss

Business trys their best to appeal to the masses, and aren't interested in some heretofore undefined perfect MMO.

Business?  You mean producers who don't know anything about this industry and who rely on developers with accolades or focal groups to make decisions for them.  Rather than paying a relatively small amount of money to individuals to actually look into the possible reasons why an MMO becomes successful, and then proceed to hire people who can design with that new found knowledge in mind instead of employing self serving dolts who come from a different genre altogether.

These producers, like business, try to appeal to the masses, but unlike business they don't bother putting their money in the right places, instead lazily investing with hopes of a phat return.

Originally posted by Ipcryss

Companies can't invest millions of dollars to design and distribute to some small segment's ideal.

They already do.  You think the majority of gamers LIKE grinding, useless quest structures and a world they can't impact in any way?  Not to mention looking and having identical appearances and abilities as 10%-25% of the other players they see.  Yes this is the dream of the majority of people who play games, to be just another Hero in a long line of Heroes who will follow in linear formation through quest after quest, fighting the same exact mindless drones of creatures with no real point ad nauseum  throughout a game.

It would be so stupid to even THINK of designing differently.

Originally posted by Ipcryss

Please, please, please design this perfect MMO, then avoiding that "talentless majority", shop your plan and teach everyone EXACTLY how to do it. We'll all hold our collective breath.

It's funny you would satirize an attempt at something that is about 1000 times harder to accomplish than what any game company is attempting to do today.  They who are picked to head these design teams are given millions and all they have to do is copy an over used design and improve it slightly. 

Where I or any other designer attempting to change this genre for the better, would have to do so at our own expense while holding a separate full time job to survive, not only creating a game with far more complexity and content, ingenuous mechanics and well thought through solutions to current problems, but would also have next to no budget, needing to find ways to compensate for the loss of funds while some how gaining more man hours than a large 100 person AAA team to even think of finishing in the normal 3-4 year time frame.

So yes, laugh, cause my succession would be equatable to theirs, and I'm simply running my mouth with no knowledge and absolutely no love for this genre. 

I'm here for the money, fame, and women.

Originally posted by Dreadlich

If you're playing an MMO then stay the hell away from here. I come here in between games and it's never pretty. Right now I'm waiting for WAR OB and I may come back to share my opinion of the game. After that, I plan on playing WAR and not giving MMORPG.com or any other gaming forum a second thought. This place is cancer for your gaming joy.

Someone finally got it right!

What's so funny about what you said, is that others will think you're weak for being "swayed" by everyone else.

And in the meantime, they're slowly being swayed themselves. They think they're too smart to get sucked in, so they don't even realize they already are. It's funny to read some of the responses.

I'm not immune to it either; it's why I don't read 98% of the content on this site.

Age of Conan is one of those games that deserved the negative attention, as it was clearly unfinished. So was Vanguard. But the negativity rule doesn't only apply to unsuccessful games. There will always (always) be more negative-tone postings than positive ones. Human nature guarantees it, whether it's actually a great game or not.

i wouldn't compare WAR to AoC, AoC is a unique case that will go down in history as the most over-hyped  and dissapointing MMO release ever.

From word of mouth this seems to be a good game, nobody whos played it are screaming "wow killer" or "horrible game", so i think with that in mind  we have to judge for ourselves when we get our hands on it.

Complaining about AoC is justified, everything people are saying about it is true.  Also WAR has been delayed for over a year just to make it good, i respect that, i wish they spent 1 more year on AoC(imagine that).

And yes a community forum can kill an MMO for a potential player, if you click any game's forum in MMORPG.com and its full of negative threads you know somethings wrong, but if enough people talk up a game i might buy and play it. Read a PC magazine, read Gamespot and IGN reviews, X-Play reviews 1up reviews, cant just read these forums, these guys point out all the positives of the games, while our forums tend to talk the negatives.

I wonder if MMORPG like we know them will die.

The thing is, WAR and Aion are the only hopes atm and both of them are too similar to WoW. They go for a market that's already filled by Blizzard. They can't win and when people find out these game are simply copies of the same concept in another package, they will probably be upset and go back to WoW or leave MMO.It worsens the MMO reputation of grind and unimaginable clones.

Originally posted by Waterlily

I wonder if MMORPG like we know them will die.

 

Many of us could only hope so. :>

The more people that get involved in playing mmo's the harder it will be for any dev company to keep up with content. The mmo's that are still relying on lvl's and end game mechanics are the ones that you see failiing so badly so quickly.

MMORPG's need to be open and allow freedom's that will let a player feel like they are part of the environment. Triple A companies want to copy what has been successful, in which we all know has been WOW. The problem with this way of thinking is that you can't out WOW, WOW, so why try.

I still find it so lazy and dumb that game devs still rely so much on the class/lvl system. it's not realistic in any situation anytime, anywhere. What is realistic is being alound to learn and or drop what you have learned, to learn something new, and the more you do what has been learned the better you get.

Why set a player in a pigeonhole cage, then have them run a treadmill to a certain number as fast as they can only to get to the so called endgame content that will be completed just as fast again.

People are not stupid, some are more lazy than other's but the one thing we all are, is big sponges that will absorb the information needed to do a task then try and do it as fast as possible. I continue to ask why do game devs set, us the players in that frame of mind from the beggining.

It's all really playing the numbers game. They set a number scale that at the end will make your toon be all it can be. Of course people that are faster than other's will get to that top number then sit around and bitch and moan until the next new whatever comes rolling out, and then eats it up just as fast.

So, until games incorporate more sandbox elements and less class/lvl sytems, this genre will have and continue to breed gamejumpers and trolls.

Originally posted by eldanloco

New MMO Player: "What's this WoW everyone is talking about?  I'm going to give it a try."

New MMO player discovers a game that is refined , easy to get into, but he gets bored - like any normal person would.

New MMO Player levels up to Novice MMO Player!!!!

Novice MMO Player: "I'm bored, I'm going to try something new.  Let me try this Age of Conan"

Novice  MMO player plays it for 1 day.

Novice MMO Player: "What is this crap?!  This game isn't perfect from day one?  I'm going to spread the word on forums, word of mouth, and every other form of communication I can!"

Some people hear Novice MMO Player's opinion and others like his and their opinions are changed about AoC.  Many people leave AoC, it becomes no longer profitable, and is forced to shut down.

Novice MMO Player returns to WoW to complain about his time in AoC and get his MMO fix, plays WoW for another month, and cancels his sub yet again in search of a new MMO. 

Novice MMO Player levels down to Troll.

Troll gets excited for WAR.

WAR releases, and Troll buys it right away.  Troll plays it for 2 weeks, compares it to WoW nonstop, and ruins his own fun.  Troll goes through the motions and some people hear his opinion and others like his and their opinions are changed about WAR.  Many people leave WAR, it becomes no longer profitable, and is forced to shut down.

We are caught in a vicious cycle.

Vanguard Saga of Heroes - Failed
Auto Assault - Failed
Hellgate London - Failed

Age of Conan - Getting a lot of complaints for, in my opinion, a good game.
WAR - Being compared to WoW too much.  STOP DOING THAT!
Everquest II - Came out the same time as WoW, and fell into darkness.

What do you think about this?  Am I spouting nonsense to you, or does what I say sound like the truth?  I hope you all start enjoying games more as a result by trying to have more fun.

The fact you used AOC as an example of a good game negates your entire post.  Face it, WoW is the best mmo ever made, don't blame the players for getting spoiled by  a damn good game, blame the lousy companies for trying so hard to copy WoW and failing every damn time.  How hard can it be to copy WoW anyway, is it really that hard to copy a good game and not screw it up? 

The truth of the matter is WoW is a superior game, and Blizzard is a fantastic company with a track record for making fantastic games.  Quit whining about how WoW players ruined your precious mmos, like your sandboxes or whatever it is you whine about now.  Blame the companies for churning out total garbage to try and steal WoW's thunder, and blame pathetic fanboys who are so desperate to not play WoW, that they'll blindly accept crappy garbage half finished games full of godawful bugs, missing loads of content, that they'll vehemently defend the game and tell the devs it's the best game ever even when it isn't.  It's a good thing WoW was made, now people can experience a REAL mmo, and not be stuck with shoddy half finished garbage being shoved out the door and overhyped by devs and retarded fanboys.

PS.  have fun when WAR gets killed by WoW, just like every other crappy game

Speaking for myself rather than the OP...

People who are sick of obsessive and hysterical hate-rants, as contrasted with constructive critcism, are all for consumer rights and consumer democracy. We believe in constructive and critical dialogue.

However, visit the AOC forums and see the opposite of constructive criticism and dialogue;  it has become awash with vindictive, venomous and arrogant hate posts. A vocal minority of obsessive haters, who stopped playing over a month ago, have swamped discussion there with gleeful and wishful predictions of Funcoms collapse. It's a monologue of hate, not a general discussion anymore.

Look at a typical AOC hate post. Measure the sense of outrage and righteous indigination you will find there and then ask yourself these questions:

Are Funcom really that evil? Are the AOC team waxing their villainous moustaches as we speak? Was AOC just an elaborate and cynical five-year conspiracy to rob Joe-tight-arse of that 50 dollars he literally sweated blood and spat teeth for? Do Funcom's business practise have such major repurcussions for business ethics that, as we speak, moral philosophers the world over are organising a symposium-cum-expose on 'Funcom and the problem of metaphysical evil in the 21st century'? Should we switch our citizen-consumer moral compass away from corporations that exploit child-labour or pollute the local enviroment with dangerous toxins all the better to focus on the greater and more insidious evil that is a small north-Eurpean company called Funcom and their dastardly plan to unleash incomplete mmorpgs on the world!?  

Or is this about impossible expectations for flawless, bug-free, and end-game complete  mmorpgs combined with frustrated, extreme hardcore gamers who can eat-up years of game development in a few days?

I worry the same fate is in store for WAR. The cycle of Jenkem inhalation on these forums will continue.

Regards

Melmoth

The MMORPG crowd seems to be divided into 2 groups on this issue.

There are the people who are satisfied with the current games. They don't have a problem with level-based systems, instances, restricted PvP and repetitive&easy gameplay. They play the games for what they are and are more likely to use the "stop complaining" argument. Fine, I can live with this.

Then there are the people who seem to be more passionate about the MMORPG genre. They see the potential and they get frustrated when they realize that most games are not even trying to reach this potential. They are tired of the grinding, tired of the dull combat and auto-target, tired of the linear PvE quests, tired of the non-existant death penalty, tired of feeling they are playing a single player game with other people around them, tired of not being challenged... ultimately they are tired of the "tried&true" mechanics.

I am in the latter group. I swear I'd like to have a constant blast playing WoW for example... but it is not happening. I see too many mobs respawning, I yawn in combat, I kill too many stupid boars, I click too many times the same attack buttons, I have to go through too many dumb and boring quests to "advance" because unfortunately exploring the world on my own will get me nowhere. All in all I see too many flaws and I say too many times to myself "It could be so much better" that being satisfied is not even an option. This is why I am on the complainer bandwagon. I want to play a true MMORPG that will throw me away with its depth and freedom.

I have high hopes for Darkfall and Mortal Online. I believe these 2 games will be the future of MMORPGs. I hope both of these games will see the day and be as good as I think they will...  *crossing fingers*

Know what's funny?  This argument falls flat on its face anyway.  WoW gets bashed more than any other mmo, hands down.  It's always WoW sucks, WoW is garbage, WoW is the worst game ever, I hate WoW so much, I hope *insert game here* kills WoW, I hope Blizzard goes bankrupt, WoW is the worst game ever made, WoW is so dumb, WoW doesn't have enough content, WoW pvp sucks, blah blah blah.  And guess what?  Despite the constant complaints, WoW lives on, and is a raging success. 

So why is it WoW gets more complaints than AOC even, yet is so successful while AOC is not?  Maybe it's because WoW is actually good, and AOC just plain sucks.