Ok, I ran this thread at the TCoS forums, but there is so little activety there it is kinda frustrating trying to have any meaning discussion apart from one or two other regular posters. Most of the few regulars who do post are, I am sure, mods under their civilian titles as well.. making me kinda wonder about the enthusiasm for this game, but thats another thread ;)

So... I am gonna throw it in here and see what you guys have to say :)

Community as a design choice.

I have read a few posts recently that say this game's community sucks, or that game's community sucks, and asking why? Is it mature content? Is it the sheer size of the player base? Is it the ubr guilds taking over? Is it just the nature of MMORPG players?  Is it something else?

Well, from my view, I believe it is all about the modern wave of game design post-WoW.

Now, I respect WoW. I don't play it, but I get why people do. I am not attacking that game here, but it does represent year zero for MMORPGs going mainstream and it's impact has been profound. Through it's succcess it has created a false expectation for new games to take what it does and amplify them 2000% based on the thinking that if a little works then a lot has gotta be better.

I personally think that this lazy, greedy, insepid approach to building a game for profit alone is what has created the terribible communities. In short, that bad communities are a design choice and nothing else.

Let me clarify a little;

If a MMORPG is 90% solo with no grouping, then reputation means nothing and people are free to act exactly as they like while hiding behind their monitor. Most will take this as a chance to be an asshat.

If the quest system is obvious and over detailed easy mode play, with GPS mapping and whatever so that we don't have to talk and help each other. No interdependence kills off social interaction and inter-reliance, and this allows, and indeed encourages, people to act like asshats. With no co-op play we are all against each other in a meaningless race. Instead of bringing us together, quest-grinding drives us apart

If the crafting has no interdependence or skill levels and everyone can make what they what when they want it for themselves so that we don't talk and trade with each other past using a AH, then people will be interfacing with the computer rather then a player and the social game dies.

If the game is designed so that no matter how badly you play you get the rewards, and there is no penalty for failure, so that reputation means nothing and everyone can act like a asshat because they know they don't need you, then there is no peer control over the more extreme members of a game's community.

All these thing are choices made along the design road. All remove the ability for a MMORPG to self police and peer pressure to act like a decent human being goes out the window.

I am hoping that one day a game will be made by someone who cares that will be true to what gave the first and second generation MMORPGs their souls and give us a  game where groupers and social interactors have a home, rather then create a online single player game where everyone just ghosts around from one GPS easy mode quest to the next.

My personal view is that there hasnt been a quality social fantasy MMORPG made since the Generation 2 games (EQ1, Shadowbane, AC etc), and if Ta game can corner that (large) niche market then it will live for years. If every game tries to go down the WoW route of casual lite ez mode solo play, then I know that I don't have a future with MMORPGs.

I am not asking them to re-make EQ1, or any of the others, I am just asking for not all MMORPGs to be a AoC type ghost game where everyone just runs around ignoring each other as they fullfil their latest batch of robot GPS led quests. I am not a luddite lost in gaming 10 years ago or anything, I recognise a lot of the older systems have had their day, but I genuinly think that when we got rid of these we simply threw the baby out with the bathwater.

We destroyed what made these games special, that is the living breathing community, and replaced them with a solo ez mode style of game that is great in the short term, but has left a lot wondering what happened to the old days. Lets face it, most MMORPGs are actually pretty crappy games... The only thing that makes them anything special is the communities. It just seems the devs out there lost sight of this.

In their rush to make a 'successful' game (one that makes a lot of money for them in the shortest time possible), they killed the goose that laid the golden egg of social gaming.

All the solutions to the ailments of old that the post WoW generation of MMORPGs (LotR, AoC etc) have thrown in have simply destroyed community. Take a look around, this is just a fact.


To be clear, I am only talking about community, not forced raiding, but I am a fan of grouping MMORPGs and co-operative gameplay. No dev these days seems to have the guts to actually make them anymore though, prefering instead to aim for the ultra-casual demographic in order to seek to maximise their market for the highest cash return in the shortest time.

By the way, I don't begrudge the creator a profit, but when financial decisions effect game design I have issues...

I get the need for casual gaming in a lot of people's lives, and I get the need for the soloers to play like they do, but I often wonder why people who want this play style arnt choosing other less time intensive games, like NWN2 or Elder Scrolls, or whatever. It seems they have been attracted to a genre by what makes it special, the chance to play with people, and then done everything in their power to change it once here by turning it into single player ez mode drivel and destroying the very thing that pulled them here in the first. It makes no sense to me.

These games were never great because of the play systems, obviously, they were made great originally because of the people that played them. When did we lose sight of this and settle for what we are fed now?

Ok, well, well done if you have made it this far.. lol

"Wall of text crits you for 7635."

But seriously, community for me represents the overall maturity and personality of a playerbase. Now I love WoW, but 80% of that is because I'm in a guild with some really great people. I've been on a few guild hops before after unfortunate disbands, and whenever that happens and I'm wandering the wilderness alone for a while, I lose all interest in the game.

I hear people moan about bad communities a lot, citing immaturity, selfishness or just downright idiocy, but I really do feel that MMO's are a lot like real life - you pick your friends and stick with them, and ignore the idiots.

Originally posted by Zayne3145

"Wall of text crits you for 7635."

But seriously, community for me represents the overall maturity and personality of a playerbase. Now I love WoW, but 80% of that is because I'm in a guild with some really great people. I've been on a few guild hops before after unfortunate disbands, and whenever that happens and I'm wandering the wilderness alone for a while, I lose all interest in the game.

I hear people moan about bad communities a lot, citing immaturity, selfishness or just downright idiocy, but I really do feel that MMO's are a lot like real life - you pick your friends and stick with them, and ignore the idiots.

7635??

But I used paragraphs and everything! hehe I didnt think people had thata hard time reading more then 5 lines these days ;)

I hear what you are saying but that really wasnt the point I was making... In every game there are obviously those to be ignored, but I am saying that badly thought out game design increases the percentage of those people to be ignored massively.

I agree with the OP in the sense if you cater to the lowest common denominator by removing challenge and the need for others you get a community in which every player is out for himself and treat others as competitors for what they want, or even enemies standing in their way. You also attract a lot of immature players with little decorum or discipline. Not to pump city of heroes, but beyond having the best customization in the industy, the community was probably the best I've been in because it was at its core a team oriented game, it also helps that it catered to people that wanted to be superheroes, i.e. helpful, altruistic personalities, hence if you have a question or need help, you scream out in broadcast and you'll always get answers or assistance. In fact the players are WAY more helpful than the GMs are who are in my opinion stealing a paycheck every week. I've also played with a lot of ex-wow players, even have a Wow GM on my global friend list and to a man they LOVED Coh's community and playstyle.  I would have to agree, u RARELY run into an asshat, you get the most challenging, and most fun missions in a full team, and you lvl fastest in teams. Couple that with the facts that its probably also the best fighting mmo out and casual friendly and you get 2004 Game of the Year.  Not saying try it necessarily, just that it seems to have done community building better than most.

There's some truth to that the state of the community is due to the design choices made when designing different systems (PvP, PvE, Quest, etc...).

The idea actually is the core that whether the developers want MMORPG to be just games or want them to be more of an evolving world where people can live out their desire/alter ego and whatnot.

Post-WoW the design of MMORPG seems to hit the new low in term of community building.  In WoW the ONLY community building tool is the guilds and arena teams, and arena teams are mostly made up of real life friends most of the time, same as guilds.  This destroy the idea of creating a large community in-game, even though people still help out others in the same faction. 

But this is not the only reason behind the destruction of the community, one of the other major reason is the thinking each system bring into the game.

Solo-Heavy design and Combat-Heavy design show that players do not need to depend on other players... No dependence of any kind = no community unless they are someone you know in Real Life.  The exception are those who are more open online and willing to meet new people online, but except that, there are no point in grouping or to creating a lasting community.

In the end, it is the "theme-park style game" of MMORPG versus "simulating evolving world style" of MMORPG are the core design.  Too bad most developers, in the quest of wanting to appeal to the mass, choose the former instead of the latter.  I believe the latter will grow and will in the next 10 - 20 years be the mainstream (instead of just playing an online game, you get to live our your fantasy... not playing, but living it out... that's the tread of thinking the design should impart to players...)

I think solo quests need to stop. This is what happens in a game dominated by solo quests:

Player is doing their thing, sees another player walk by, "ZOMG, he's my level and he's not from the other side! We should party!"

"What quest are you on?"

"Generic quest 20."

"Oh, I'm on generic quest 30. Bye."

Yeah, so even if you happen to be the same game, of the same level, in the same area, on the same side, you _also_ have to be doing the same quest if you want people to cooperate! It merely creates another dividing factor on top of the level system and the many many servers.

Originally posted by vesavius

 Community as a design Choice

Can't agree more with what you have said here.  This mirrors my own thoughts on design so closely that I would like to discuss this further with you.  I will say in advance that if the topic of NDAs arise that we will most likely disagree somewhat on the idiology regarding breakage of those.

I think it's very uncommon for non designers to point out that developers are responsible for how there game develops to a great extent.  Most people will simply blame the community for its own pitfalls, as if it is an extension of the players rather than an extension of the designers flawed designs.  Anyway, I'll message you and hopefully you will want to discuss further.

If people want to socialize, they will do so. You don't need a system to drive social people together.

People who don't want to socialize won't play a game that mandates that they do. They will find a game that allows them to play the way they prefer.

So the question is simple: if you don't like this kind of game design, a design which allows an individual to not be interdependent upon a social group, why are you playing such a game?

Actually, the real question is: why do you care if 9 out of 10 people around you are antisocial? Go find your like-minded people and ignore the rest...I guarantee you that they are there.

Originally posted by ianubisi

Actually, the real question is: why do you care if 9 out of 10 people around you are antisocial? Go find your like-minded people and ignore the rest...I guarantee you that they are there.

If 9 out of 10 people are antisocial that does not leave a lot of people to socialize with.  The fact that the majority of games caters to the antisocial gamer does not leave much choice when it comes to looking for a game that has something for the social individual.

I would gladly go and play other games but they all usually lack quality or implement some crap like item malls.

Also I couldn't agree more with the OP.  All the antisocial people have tons of choices to go where ever they choose and they always find a friendly environment to their playstile.  Their influence has put us where we are now. 

---

Originally posted by Illius

If 9 out of 10 people are antisocial that does not leave a lot of people to socialize with.  The fact that the majority of games caters to the antisocial gamer does not leave much choice when it comes to looking for a game that has something for the social individual.

---

Which is to say that you are in the minority? If that is so, why would developers cater to a minority perspective?

Originally posted by ianubisi

If people want to socialize, they will do so. You don't need a system to drive social people together.

People who don't want to socialize won't play a game that mandates that they do. They will find a game that allows them to play the way they prefer.

So the question is simple: if you don't like this kind of game design, a design which allows an individual to not be interdependent upon a social group, why are you playing such a game?

Actually, the real question is: why do you care if 9 out of 10 people around you are antisocial? Go find your like-minded people and ignore the rest...I guarantee you that they are there.

This is only half truth.  People need incentive to do many things, socializing is one of them.  So yes, you do need a system that is design for such function.

Interdependency does not mean everyone must social with others, but that there will be player interaction in every aspect (in some form or another).  So the question becomes, can everyone do everything on their own?  if so then why play with other?  If people cannot do everything on their own, then there will be player interaction, which also counts as socializing.

No one cares for whether someone is antisocial or not, but to design an online game that focus on antisocial aspect is just idiotic.  Why would you need to play an online game when you can get the same experience in an off-line game?  Of course, everyone can choose what games to play, but that doesn't mean they should design with just one way of thinking...

Originally posted by ianubisi

If people want to socialize, they will do so. You don't need a system to drive social people together.

People who don't want to socialize won't play a game that mandates that they do. They will find a game that allows them to play the way they prefer.

So the question is simple: if you don't like this kind of game design, a design which allows an individual to not be interdependent upon a social group, why are you playing such a game?

Actually, the real question is: why do you care if 9 out of 10 people around you are antisocial? Go find your like-minded people and ignore the rest...I guarantee you that they are there.

Although it may be true that those who want to socialize will do so, the fact is that most gamers have no real freaking clue what they "want" to do when starting a new game.  Most gamers simply do what the game dictates they must do.  If questing levels you faster than grinding mobs, most players will quest.  If grinding mobs is more advantageous then they will do that. 

So his point is that if designed properly you could get a lot more people pointed in the socializing direction, as the majority of people are not anti social by nature.  The anti social nature of communities in this genre, is as stated, faultily designed and thoughtlessly implemented.  Most people are actually quite social by nature, whether online or off, and given the proper tools will act that way.  It's not about forcing people to socialize but giving them the tools to actually do so and creating a semi realistic state of interdependence throughout the game world.  This interdependence actually improves many other things, like the economic structure, gameplay opportunities, and additional plot lines.

This is not a matter of "finding" like minded people, as he isn't complaining from a gamers stand point but a designers standpoint and giving reason to horrible communities which are, in combination with other things, bad because of the poor design structures, especially regarding socialization.  The current designs of many MMORPGs are skewed as the designers attempt to simplify their desires and that of the major audience of casual gamers.  The designers want to make sure progression is lasting which they attempt to accomplish by having levels, but they also see that they need to design towards casual players as they are the majority so they make it solo-able leveling.  Along with this they see no need to add many social structures past basic chat functions, as it would be uneconomical to build social systems that that majority of the player base won't take advantage of.  This leads to a totally hermit like gameplay experience where if a different progressive system was put in place, and more social tools added, it would lead to many more players partaking in the social aspects of the game, and would still allow those who wish to solo to do so.

This is not an "add social enhancers" equals "forcing solo players to group" concept, this is simply allowing more people who want to socialize to do so and many who could care less either way to lean towards the side that actually improves the community as a whole while secondarily and positively affecting the realistic consistency of the world.

Originally posted by ianubisi

 

 

Which is to say that you are in the minority? If that is so, why would developers cater to a minority perspective?

Anti social players are only the majority if the game is built to push players to be that way.  As anyone knows the majority of the human race is social, and desires to experience many things with others, not without them.

The reason is economics (laziness), as designers need to both allow for progression but also casual play, and they or the producers they must answer to do not desire to think of more complex ways to accomplish this same task.  Once someone does and it proves to be extremely successful, then all will copy ad nauseam.

I think this is a very insightful thread, and the idea behind it is certainly true.

The only advantage of an mmorpg over a single player game is other players to either compete or cooperate with.  These things should be the main part of the game.  Most games have very little of either, and what they do have is forced and unnatural.

I think the biggest flaw is segregating players by levels.  Generally, a low level player is of no use to high levels, so if a player falls behind his friends, he can't play with them.  They can chat, sure, but they could've done that without the game.

I think one of the best community building features is a highly interdependent economy.  Make sure that every section of the playerbase has something to offer, and make them interact in dynamic ways.  This way, you ensure that players are playing WITH each other instead of just next to each other,

You're not the only one who thinks this way. There has been a whole document with an abstract about how MMORPGs have become games that feature soloers who play single player, but with an audience to gawk at them. Basically, time is invested to get uber-1337 gear and noobs will call them "pro." It's in one of my 1000 or so bookmarks that I haven't organized in years.

Originally posted by tunabun

Originally posted by ianubisi

 

 

Which is to say that you are in the minority? If that is so, why would developers cater to a minority perspective?

 

Anti social players are only the majority if the game is built to push players to be that way.  As anyone knows the majority of the human race is social, and desires to experience many things with others, not without them.

The reason is economics (laziness), as designers need to both allow for progression but also casual play, and they or the producers they must answer to do not desire to think of more complex ways to accomplish this same task.  Once someone does and it proves to be extremely successful, then all will copy ad nauseam.

It's the way of the world. There are some exceptions, but not many people care for them enough.

Originally posted by tunabun

Originally posted by ianubisi

 

 

Which is to say that you are in the minority? If that is so, why would developers cater to a minority perspective?

 

Anti social players are only the majority if the game is built to push players to be that way.  As anyone knows the majority of the human race is social, and desires to experience many things with others, not without them.

The reason is economics (laziness), as designers need to both allow for progression but also casual play, and they or the producers they must answer to do not desire to think of more complex ways to accomplish this same task.  Once someone does and it proves to be extremely successful, then all will copy ad nauseam.

What he said.

I have yet to hear of a single way in which a game designer can turn an antisocial person into a social person.

In essence, that is what is being demanded here: that antisocial behavior be "corrected" through game design. It's preposterous.

Originally posted by ianubisi

I have yet to hear of a single way in which a game designer can turn an antisocial person into a social person.

In essence, that is what is being demanded here: that antisocial behavior be "corrected" through game design. It's preposterous.

 

You're assuming that those players are antisocial by nature.  Those people may exist, but as tunabun said, the majority are not like that.  I think it's perfectly plausible to say that they're conditioned that way by game mechanics that make it disadvantageous to be social.

Even if that's not the case, there still may be a benefit to creating a game that attracts a less antisocial playerbase.  Community is often the main reason people continue to play a game after the gameplay has lost its appeal, so it may be in a developer's best interest to market to people who'd make a better community.

Originally posted by ianubisi

I have yet to hear of a single way in which a game designer can turn an antisocial person into a social person.

In essence, that is what is being demanded here: that antisocial behavior be "corrected" through game design. It's preposterous.

 

No one is saying to "correct" antisocial behavior.  Depends on the situation, everyone has antisocial moments.  But developers need to create better tools and systems for people to use for socialization.  So far there are little or no such tool in MMORPG (being social doesn't mean just talking to people, but interaction between people are also socialization.)  So with the tools available, you can either use it or not use it, your choice, but it is more preposterous to not having the tools for those who want to use it but can't. 

It's better to have it and not use it than not having it but want to use it...

Originally posted by vesavius

Originally posted by Zayne3145

"Wall of text crits you for 7635."

But seriously, community for me represents the overall maturity and personality of a playerbase. Now I love WoW, but 80% of that is because I'm in a guild with some really great people. I've been on a few guild hops before after unfortunate disbands, and whenever that happens and I'm wandering the wilderness alone for a while, I lose all interest in the game.

I hear people moan about bad communities a lot, citing immaturity, selfishness or just downright idiocy, but I really do feel that MMO's are a lot like real life - you pick your friends and stick with them, and ignore the idiots.

 

7635??

But I used paragraphs and everything! hehe I didnt think people had thata hard time reading more then 5 lines these days ;)

I hear what you are saying but that really wasnt the point I was making... In every game there are obviously those to be ignored, but I am saying that badly thought out game design increases the percentage of those people to be ignored massively.

 

 Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the type of game your discribing doesn't allow you to ignore the idiots, it forces you to group with them. Dispite what you say sometimes its good to be able to solo. Personally I hate PUG groups they generally have at least one asshat in them. I'd much rather group with my guild mates, and if I'm playing in a off hour when thats not possible I'd much rather solo. I don't like being forced to group. Sure some might be totally cool but in experience just as many are not. The old answer of "well just don't group with them, and instead get a different group" Just means I spend more time doing nothing but waiting around in the community for a group.

  The thing is I don't actually play MMO's for the community. If theresa good community its a plus, but I deal with people in RL, I have no problem calling up a friend to tell a joke etc. Community, real community is what you deal with in real life. Fake community ie little Jimmy online hoping to pick up a pixalated girlfriend, or Joe Smoo wanting to show off his latest epic to feel better about himself is not community. 

In old EQ community was decent, because everybody knew they could need the help of others at any time.

Moder MMOs can be played quite succesfully without much need of help from the rest of players, so some people behave like absolute morons.

That's it.

Originally posted by Zayne3145

"Wall of text crits you for 7635."

I agree with the OP. I want community based games, where groups are interdependent, not just a bunch of solo players doing a quest at the same time like in WoW.

I know that style of game play is popular, but it's not for me.

Originally posted by winter

. Personally I hate PUG groups they generally have at least one asshat in them. I'd much rather group with my guild mates, and if I'm playing in a off hour when thats not possible I'd much rather solo. I don't like being forced to group. Sure some might be totally cool but in experience just as many are not. The old answer of "well just don't group with them, and instead get a different group" Just means I spend more time doing nothing but waiting around in the community for a group.

  The thing is I don't actually play MMO's for the community. If theresa good community its a plus, but I deal with people in RL, I have no problem calling up a friend to tell a joke etc. Community, real community is what you deal with in real life. Fake community ie little Jimmy online hoping to pick up a pixalated girlfriend, or Joe Smoo wanting to show off his latest epic to feel better about himself is not community. 

A good example why they should make different games for different types of players. I only play MMORPGs for the community, I never solo unless it's just to whack on mobs waiting on a group, and I pretty much ONLY play in Pugs.

That's my favorite thing to do in an MMO, play in pick up groups.

I don't feel like I'm ever being "forced to group" because there's really nothing in an MMORPG I want to do, if I'm not in a group.

Doing quests solo, or grinding on mobs solo? Why would I bother, because it's so boring? If I'm playing an MMORPG solo, I'm not having any fun, so it's pointless for me.

You want community building game design.  Most MMORPGs have these roles but they are not as clearly defined as they should be.  These games need to group people into playing styles and make a place for all of them within one MMORPG and not shard them away from each other.

A player who prefers to solo should be left alone but still have a community role.  A crafter or a raw resource gatherer is the perfect job for them - they make items for the larger community or provide meat, metal, or hide to those that do craft.

A dungeon raiding PvEer should gather rare resources that improve a crafted object.  Have a purchasable items bought from a general vendor that allows a crafter to make an item but have special items drop from dungeon mobs that significantly improve the items abilities.

To encourage PvPers - have them compete for activity points each month and the side that has the most points gets early access to new PvE content and crafting patterns.

Social players should be able to congregate in a designated area and buff other players.

Players that enjoy lore and RPing should be able to collect rumors (little pieces of lore) from random sources like books and each other and piece them together to unlock epic questlines which they can then distribute to the remaining community.

Each player has a place and each one provides a service to the larger community.