MMORPGs are games with very high potential. Unfortunately, I believe that games falling in this category these years are not on the right track at all. What is a MMORPG? Well, it depends who you ask the question I guess. Personnally I would say that a MMORPG is supposed to be a believable online virtual world where people can do pretty much whatever they want. Killing monsters, killing other players, forming clans and guilds, trading goods, participating in epic battles, controlling strategic territories, building cities, building a house, building a ship and discover the world, anything really... as long as you are free. Unfortunately, it seems that most MMO developers don't agree with this definition. For most of them, a MMORPG consists of an online virtual world (so far so good) where every players start at level 1 and gain additional levels through a few game mechanics like questing, farming and pvping. When a player reach the level cap, we present him the "end-game content" in order to keep him interested for a while. The end-game consists of massive "PvE raids" that rewards the player with good weapons and good armor or other PvP scripted events.

It's not that all of these things suck, it's more that this is not what a MMORPG should be. I think players are ready for a true sandbox game. Enough of these artificial worlds full of in-game rules and boundaries. Just give us a world and we'll play with it. Now about the thing called "PvP", I have to say this : It should be possible to be attacked anytime by anyone anywhere! Yes this is what we call open pvp, but I prefer to describe it this way : A virtual world should be full of monsters, full of players and full of other dangers. You should NEVER be 100% safe just because you are in a village. Warn you, I am more into PvE than PvP so I know I would be the first to be pissed off if I got killed in a village by some idiot screaming "W0ot! pwnd n0ob!". Instead of crying to a GM however, how about forming a small clan with 3-4 friends to kick the ass of this jerk and loot his corpse stealing all his precious equipment while we're at it? Don't like encounters against other players at all? Ok, fine... how about travelling to a small unknown place in the world, build a house and try to form a small and peaceful community right there? Don't you think that it would be way better than some enforced rule that protects you from other players under certain conditions (difference in levels, safe zones, etc).

A game like Darkfall (if it ever becomes a game) might be the first to allow all this kind of freedom and immersion. What they promise is almost exactly what I am describing here... but I guess we'll have to wait and see. What's your take on sandbox-like mmorpgs?

I don't know why developers, or their bosses, feel that they have to hold the gamers' hands and walk them through the world, but that seems to be the trend for new MMOs these days.  I fear that as more and more gamers get frustrated and leave them, companies will gett more and more frustrated and stop making them.  A great MMO takes a vision, not a marketing survey.

There was already a game that offered such freedom, well before Darkfall. It's forums are now filled with current players and angry veterans.

I agree with your definition of an MMO and indeed your vision, (and while I still enjoy WoW) I wish future games can stay away from such boring "grinds", good thing I should have enough other games from different genres to keep me busy until a good mmo comes out. (thank god for L4D)

sandbox style mmorpgs are the only ones i want to play. i want maximum freedom and as little security as possible when it comes to gameplay. i'm currently awaiting Mortal Online, but of course all sandbox games are on my radar (mmo and single-player).

Originally posted by Deneb

MMORPGs are games with very high potential. Unfortunately, I believe that games falling in this category these years are not on the right track at all. What is a MMORPG? Well, it depends who you ask the question I guess. Personnally I would say that a MMORPG is supposed to be a believable online virtual world where people can do pretty much whatever they want. Killing monsters, killing other players, forming clans and guilds, trading goods, participating in epic battles, controlling strategic territories, building cities, building a house, building a ship and discover the world, anything really... as long as you are free. Unfortunately, it seems that most MMO developers don't agree with this definition. For most of them, a MMORPG consists of an online virtual world (so far so good) where every players start at level 1 and gain additional levels through a few game mechanics like questing, farming and pvping. When a player reach the level cap, we present him the "end-game content" in order to keep him interested for a while. The end-game consists of massive "PvE raids" that rewards the player with good weapons and good armor or other PvP scripted events.

It's not that all of these things suck, it's more that this is not what a MMORPG should be. I think players are ready for a true sandbox game. Enough of these artificial worlds full of in-game rules and boundaries. Just give us a world and we'll play with it. Now about the thing called "PvP", I have to say this : It should be possible to be attacked anytime by anyone anywhere! Yes this is what we call open pvp, but I prefer to describe it this way : A virtual world should be full of monsters, full of players and full of other dangers. You should NEVER be 100% safe just because you are in a village. Warn you, I am more into PvE than PvP so I know I would be the first to be pissed off if I got killed in a village by some idiot screaming "W0ot! pwnd n0ob!". Instead of crying to a GM however, how about forming a small clan with 3-4 friends to kick the ass of this jerk and loot his corpse stealing all his precious equipment while we're at it? Don't like encounters against other players at all? Ok, fine... how about travelling to a small unknown place in the world, build a house and try to form a small and peaceful community right there? Don't you think that it would be way better than some enforced rule that protects you from other players under certain conditions (difference in levels, safe zones, etc).

A game like Darkfall (if it ever becomes a game) might be the first to allow all this kind of freedom and immersion. What they promise is almost exactly what I am describing here... but I guess we'll have to wait and see. What's your take on sandbox-like mmorpgs?

I agreed with everything you said except for the free for all pvp environment.

I don't like FFA pvp for a couple reasons. One, I like having a side I am fighting for. This gives me a reason to be fighting, clear allies, and clear enemies. While this may be a step away from a true sandbox, I feel it is a necessary compensation for playability.

Another issue I have with FFA, is it is just madness. Instead of having to look out for your enemy, you have to look out for everyone. While I like the feeling of risk and keeping aware of threats, having to watch your back for EVERYONE knocks on the door of paranoia.

So yeah, I don't like free for all pvp, but some people do, so more power to you. But everything else, I agree with you.

Originally posted by Deneb

MMORPGs are games with very high potential. Unfortunately, I believe that games falling in this category these years are not on the right track at all. What is a MMORPG? Well, it depends who you ask the question I guess. Personnally I would say that a MMORPG is supposed to be a believable online virtual world where people can do pretty much whatever they want. Killing monsters, killing other players, forming clans and guilds, trading goods, participating in epic battles, controlling strategic territories, building cities, building a house, building a ship and discover the world, anything really... as long as you are free. Unfortunately, it seems that most MMO developers and the new majority of people who TRY to play a MMO don't agree with this definition. For most of them, a MMORPG consists of an online virtual world (so far so good) where every players start at level 1 and gain additional levels through a few game mechanics like questing, farming and pvping. When a player reach the level cap, we present him the "end-game content" in order to keep him interested for a while. The end-game consists of massive "PvE raids" that rewards the player with good weapons and good armor or other PvP scripted events. Exactly what most complainers about these games seem to want, as reading many complaints (definitly NOT all af course) I see allot of them really needing their handshold as when a game or it's company stops holding their hands they sream and whine Game X Sucks...

It's not that all of these things suck, it's more that this is not what a MMORPG should be. I think players are ready for a true sandbox game. Nope sorry they are NOT, we Niche players are but we get confronted each day to read that this isn't what the masses seem to want. Enough of these artificial worlds full of in-game rules and boundaries. Just give us a world and we'll play with it. Now about the thing called "PvP", I have to say this : It should be possible to be attacked anytime by anyone anywhere! Yes this is what we call open pvp, but I prefer to describe it this way : A virtual world should be full of monsters, full of players and full of other dangers. You should NEVER be 100% safe just because you are in a village. Warn you, I am more into PvE than PvP so I know I would be the first to be pissed off if I got killed in a village by some idiot screaming "W0ot! pwnd n0ob!". Instead of crying to a GM however, how about forming a small clan with 3-4 friends to kick the ass of this jerk and loot his corpse stealing all his precious equipment while we're at it? Don't like encounters against other players at all? Ok, fine... how about travelling to a small unknown place in the world, build a house and try to form a small and peaceful community right there? Don't you think that it would be way better than some enforced rule that protects you from other players under certain conditions (difference in levels, safe zones, etc).

A game like Darkfall (if it ever becomes a game) might be the first to allow all this kind of freedom and immersion. What they promise is almost exactly what I am describing here... but I guess we'll have to wait and see. What's your take on sandbox-like mmorpgs?

You need to realize these day's WE are the minority of GAMERS, today we have a majority of people who play games, I fully agree on your view of a MMORPG as it's the same view I have for it aswell. I am sure one day we will see that game, but seeing in HOW people complain about these games I would count on a hugh change anytime soon.

Originally posted by Deneb

MMORPGs are games with very high potential. Unfortunately, I believe that games falling in this category these years are not on the right track at all. What is a MMORPG? Well, it depends who you ask the question I guess. Personnally I would say that a MMORPG is supposed to be a believable online virtual world where people can do pretty much whatever they want. Killing monsters, killing other players, forming clans and guilds, trading goods, participating in epic battles, controlling strategic territories, building cities, building a house, building a ship and discover the world, anything really... as long as you are free. Unfortunately, it seems that most MMO developers don't agree with this definition. For most of them, a MMORPG consists of an online virtual world (so far so good) where every players start at level 1 and gain additional levels through a few game mechanics like questing, farming and pvping. When a player reach the level cap, we present him the "end-game content" in order to keep him interested for a while. The end-game consists of massive "PvE raids" that rewards the player with good weapons and good armor or other PvP scripted events.

It's not that all of these things suck, it's more that this is not what a MMORPG should be. I think players are ready for a true sandbox game. Enough of these artificial worlds full of in-game rules and boundaries. Just give us a world and we'll play with it. Now about the thing called "PvP", I have to say this : It should be possible to be attacked anytime by anyone anywhere! Yes this is what we call open pvp, but I prefer to describe it this way : A virtual world should be full of monsters, full of players and full of other dangers. You should NEVER be 100% safe just because you are in a village. Warn you, I am more into PvE than PvP so I know I would be the first to be pissed off if I got killed in a village by some idiot screaming "W0ot! pwnd n0ob!". Instead of crying to a GM however, how about forming a small clan with 3-4 friends to kick the ass of this jerk and loot his corpse stealing all his precious equipment while we're at it? Don't like encounters against other players at all? Ok, fine... how about travelling to a small unknown place in the world, build a house and try to form a small and peaceful community right there? Don't you think that it would be way better than some enforced rule that protects you from other players under certain conditions (difference in levels, safe zones, etc).

A game like Darkfall (if it ever becomes a game) might be the first to allow all this kind of freedom and immersion. What they promise is almost exactly what I am describing here... but I guess we'll have to wait and see. What's your take on sandbox-like mmorpgs?

God yes, yes, yes... We need a sandbox MMO, I HAVE WANTED THIS MY ENTIRE MMO GAMING CAREER! I thought I was one of VERY few but apparently not. I hope that someone realizes what a great idea this is and develops an MMO of this type... Hell, I am a texture artist, concept artist, character designer and whatnot, I'd sign on to a team for a game like this...

Just anything sanbox like would be good at this point. I havent enjoyed a MMO since SWG in 2005 : (

The OP talks about that the todays developers want to hold hand and lead the player throu the gameworld, and protecting it from risks and conflict, and at same time making the player feel as the chosen here of the world.

My biggest problem is that developers have removed multipersonal "ships" from MMOs. In SWG you had to be around 3-7 players in one ship to fly it.  When in combat you screamed orders, sweat dripped at the keybord and finaslly when we were done.....the whole crew would feel as a real "crew".

Nowdays "multipersonal ship" have become a bad word. I hade great hopes for PoBS, then i eard it was one man in one ship!. And that the community were angry if you asked for multi.

Now i see the same with Star Treck Online. I might be wrong.....but isnt the whole point of that to have a big crew on deck???

The old SWG was the nuts as far as sandboxes went, and is still far and away the most fun that I ever had in an mmo.
No handholding, lots of depth and immersion, creativity, community, and the crafting was also second to none.

Can't wait for Darkfall, and hope it at least lives up to most of its promises....in the meantime it would be madness not to check out WAR.

Originally posted by Zindaihas

I don't know why developers, or their bosses, feel that they have to hold the gamers' hands and walk them through the world, but that seems to be the trend for new MMOs these days.  I fear that as more and more gamers get frustrated and leave them, companies will gett more and more frustrated and stop making them.  A great MMO takes a vision, not a marketing survey.

Money is only reason, themepark mmo's have biggest potential playerbase out there, its seems save bet for most.

As long games like wow are very succesfull this aint gonne happen, the frustrated players are a minority.

There are only 892k players registered here on mmorpg.com and only a small part realy come alot here and make topics or reply, while there millions and millions of players out there who love the mass themepark style games.

Lets hope darkfall and mortal online(still have my doubs about this one) will succeed in bringing back sandbox mmo's as a mmorpg like i see it should be made hehe.

Originally posted by bigfoots

The old SWG was the nuts as far as sandboxes went, and is still far and away the most fun that I ever had in an mmo.
No handholding, lots of depth and immersion, creativity, community, and the crafting was also second to none.

Can't wait for Darkfall, and hope it at least lives up to most of its promises....in the meantime it would be madness not to check out WAR.

WAR is casual, easy and themepark and extention of WoW.

If you like darkfall and no handholding why you wanne play WAR and say its madness not to check it out lol, very strange how people contradict themselfs:P

Originally posted by Abrahmm

I agreed with everything you said except for the free for all pvp environment.

I don't like FFA pvp for a couple reasons. One, I like having a side I am fighting for. This gives me a reason to be fighting, clear allies, and clear enemies. While this may be a step away from a true sandbox, I feel it is a necessary compensation for playability.

Another issue I have with FFA, is it is just madness. Instead of having to look out for your enemy, you have to look out for everyone. While I like the feeling of risk and keeping aware of threats, having to watch your back for EVERYONE knocks on the door of paranoia.

So yeah, I don't like free for all pvp, but some people do, so more power to you. But everything else, I agree with you.

I hate mindless random PKers as well but I think they would be in the minority if the game was implemented properly... like by offering rewards to those who kill murderers on sight and by making every neutral/good aligned NPC hostile to them (attacking them, not selling them stuff and so on). This way, you COULD be a random PKer but it would be a very risky and difficult thing.

But I hear you, the only kind of PvP I am personnally looking for in a game is group-based PvP with a meaning. I'd like to organize battles with my guild members and use siege weapons to take the enemy city... stuff like that.

Originally posted by Reklaw 

You need to realize these day's WE are the minority of GAMERS, today we have a majority of people who play games, I fully agree on your view of a MMORPG as it's the same view I have for it aswell. I am sure one day we will see that game, but seeing in HOW people complain about these games I would count on a hugh change anytime soon.

Well, I have to say you might be right about us being in the minority. If this is true I would not mind a "niche" game with less players in it. Of course that would mean less money for the company that built the game... that's a problem I guess.

Sounds a lot like the original UO. The only thing I disagree with is the free for all pvp.That only causes problems. I remember when EQ came out. When I realized it didn't have the open pvp, I jumped ship and never looked back.

Offering rewards for killing PK'ers doesn't work either. They just get a friend to kill them. Then the friend Pk's and they get to kill them to get a reward also.

I would also add that instead of picking a go/evil role, how about your actions in game decide your alignment? Quests with multiple endings. What if Mr. Lazy merchant sends me to go get his pricey bauble and instead of giving it back to him, I keep it and sell it to another merchant for more cash? It would be much more fun to be able to complete a quest in different ways. Truly putting more of a rpg feel back in.

Originally posted by bigfoots

The old SWG was the nuts as far as sandboxes went, and is still far and away the most fun that I ever had in an mmo.
No handholding, lots of depth and immersion, creativity, community, and the crafting was also second to none.

Can't wait for Darkfall, and hope it at least lives up to most of its promises....in the meantime it would be madness not to check out WAR.

I agree that WAR seems to be quite a fun game... but to my eyes it is clearly not a MMORPG. Listening to their podcasts and reading FAQs on their website, there seems to be so many rules and so many arcadish elements in the game that it kills the concept of a huge believable world.

The 3 conflict pairings is an awesome idea... but after it goes downhill :

By killing your enemy race or by completing PvE quests in your area, you earn some so called victory points. When you have enough victory points in your "tier", your race automatically gain control of it. You then fight for possession from tier to tier earning those precious victory points along the way. Then, at tier 5, when you are in your enemy capital city, you sack it, you kill their king and you take control of the city. Sounds cool, but the problem is that after a while, the whole thing resets. The defenders get their city back for no reason and the conflict starts over again. The whole process feels way too mechanical and scripted to me.

I'm not bashing the game at all, it's not even out yet. In fact I think WAR will be fun... but this is not a sandbox MMORPG. A lot of PvP yes, but virtually no freedom for the player.

Originally posted by Harpy_Lady

Sounds a lot like the original UO. The only thing I disagree with is the free for all pvp.That only causes problems. I remember when EQ came out. When I realized it didn't have the open pvp, I jumped ship and never looked back.

Offering rewards for killing PK'ers doesn't work either. They just get a friend to kill them. Then the friend Pk's and they get to kill them to get a reward also.

I would also add that instead of picking a go/evil role, how about your actions in game decide your alignment? Quests with multiple endings. What if Mr. Lazy merchant sends me to go get his pricey bauble and instead of giving it back to him, I keep it and sell it to another merchant for more cash? It would be much more fun to be able to complete a quest in different ways. Truly putting more of a rpg feel back in.

It can go even deeper, the merchant who get info you sold item to the competion, place bounty on your head or could go over to other merchant and robbed this item he got from you and you have a merchant war going on :)

And about open pvp its just a matter of taste if you like a pve game sandbox style thats good for you, some like to have also open pvp so its bit more complex gameworld.

Nice dream. How many true sandbox mmo's have been made? SWG? The experience and fun you had in SWG was not because it was a sandbox game, although most claim this, but from the immersiveness into the gameworld. You truly felt as if you were in a living/fuctioning SW universe. The gameplay and mechanics were horrendous. Don't get me wrong it was by far the best experience I have had in an mmo to date. But from beta the game mechanics were flawed, anyone that was around then knows this but it was all overlooked by most when they logged in, because the game was just immersive and amazing to experience. Just my 2 cents.

saga of ryzom is comming back and this time i going to try it before its to late^^

A good sandbox is defiantly needed but forcing ffa onto everyone will do nothing but repeat the past.

To make ffa work and not turn into a gey gank fest like EVERY ffa game to date has turned into there must be REAL risk for pkers.

UO is the classic example of what happens when there is little to no risk for pkers.  When you give people free rain with no consiquences for their actions of course they will exploit it.

Ryzom is coming back.  As soon as new account can be created I'll be in it.

Originally posted by Deneb

MMORPGs are games with very high potential. Unfortunately, I believe that games falling in this category these years are not on the right track at all. What is a MMORPG? Well, it depends who you ask the question I guess. Personnally I would say that a MMORPG is supposed to be a believable online virtual world where people can do pretty much whatever they want. Killing monsters, killing other players, forming clans and guilds, trading goods, participating in epic battles, controlling strategic territories, building cities, building a house, building a ship and discover the world, anything really... as long as you are free. Unfortunately, it seems that most MMO developers don't agree with this definition. For most of them, a MMORPG consists of an online virtual world (so far so good) where every players start at level 1 and gain additional levels through a few game mechanics like questing, farming and pvping. When a player reach the level cap, we present him the "end-game content" in order to keep him interested for a while. The end-game consists of massive "PvE raids" that rewards the player with good weapons and good armor or other PvP scripted events.

It's not that all of these things suck, it's more that this is not what a MMORPG should be. I think players are ready for a true sandbox game. Enough of these artificial worlds full of in-game rules and boundaries. Just give us a world and we'll play with it. Now about the thing called "PvP", I have to say this : It should be possible to be attacked anytime by anyone anywhere! Yes this is what we call open pvp, but I prefer to describe it this way : A virtual world should be full of monsters, full of players and full of other dangers. You should NEVER be 100% safe just because you are in a village. Warn you, I am more into PvE than PvP so I know I would be the first to be pissed off if I got killed in a village by some idiot screaming "W0ot! pwnd n0ob!". Instead of crying to a GM however, how about forming a small clan with 3-4 friends to kick the ass of this jerk and loot his corpse stealing all his precious equipment while we're at it? Don't like encounters against other players at all? Ok, fine... how about travelling to a small unknown place in the world, build a house and try to form a small and peaceful community right there? Don't you think that it would be way better than some enforced rule that protects you from other players under certain conditions (difference in levels, safe zones, etc).

A game like Darkfall (if it ever becomes a game) might be the first to allow all this kind of freedom and immersion. What they promise is almost exactly what I am describing here... but I guess we'll have to wait and see. What's your take on sandbox-like mmorpgs?

I totally agree with everything you have said Deneb. Every mmo that comes out is the same old bloody carebear crap over and over. I'm so bored of the same old crappy routines that these games follow. WAR is sort of trying to allow a bit of interaction between players but its still catering to the unimaginative masses by giving everyone what they are already used to. Its just playing it safe basicly by churning out another single-player-style quest & level based cookie cutter game which I totally understand from a monetary view point but.......geez its so dreary. For any games company to make a truly interesting mmo they will have to take such a massive risk and who wants to risk losing huge amounts of money on a brilliant game that will probably get ignored because most gamers are brain dead and just cant accept new ideas?

One poster further up said that people like us are in the minority and I actually feel he is correct. The human race has always been that way unfortunately, where the simple and obvious is always more popular than the complex and challenging. Anything that requires more thought, imagination and creativity gets ignored in favour of products that make the decisions for you. People have a strong tendency to stay in their comfort zones and the current crop of mmos lend themselves very well to this bad habit.

I really dont think Darkfall is going to be our saviour but hopefully some other game will come along some day. I dont see it being any time soon though. For now I'm just making do with EVE as its the best I can find.