I was just thinking about this waiting on two MMOs to be released (and re-released). One of those is Ryzom. I have heard a little bit about the game and asked a few questions and found out it is skill based. Now, I have only played SWG when it was skill based and that was an unique experience, and everyone can agree.

Now the other game is The Chronicles of Spellborn. Now this game has your typical class level base gameplay, albit with other unique elements onto itself (playing kinda like AoC where your targetting is controlled) with a combo and tiered attack system. Especially love the fact that there is no gear to find in the game. You only need the enhancements (sigils), jewelry, and weapon (I think). All armor (and maybe weapons) are only for aesthetic purposes, which is just freaking kewl.

Now take the two elements in these two games, skill based and class based, and meld them together. Have each class have a common pool of skills and a specialized pool of skills that fit with the class.

Example: Like a Warrior class could have all the common skill types, like Running, Endurance Training, you know, skills that work all across each character in the game. Then have a list of skills JUST for the Warrior class like Unarmed, Hand to Hand, 1h Weapons, 2h Weapons, Axe/Sword/Mace/Dagger/Staff/Fist/Claws/Ect Specializations, Light/Medium/Heavy Armor Training, ect. Mage class would have the common skills types, like all other classes, but contain spellcasting schools of different types of magic and whatnot.

You could even take this a bit further and introduce either hybrid classes in the game which contain a selective mix of skills between the core classes and may even introduce some uniques of their own or have a dual class system in place to allow classes to take skills outside their main class, but of course, maybe have some type of penality. Maybe you can only go half as high as the secondary class or skill points cost double outside the primary class. But this should not be forced to where every player needs a primary class and a secondary, only if the player wanted too. Most likely, just having hybrid classes would fit this type of game style better.

Why, if some love class based and some love skill based, can the two not be melded together to produce a just, what else can I say, totally badass game?

Honestly, how hard can it be for developers to come up with something unique instead of all of them mostly being class/level based and some being skill based? Maybe there is not any other system but skill and class/level based but if you meld the two together, that is something unique. Honestly, I think the SWG system was set up like this if I remember.

Either way, I hopefully will see something unique in the near future, or the future is going to look grim for MMO players.

Discuss.

Yeah, that would be a step in the right direction.

I think I still prefer SWG which allowed you to do anything, anytime.  But what you described would certainly be more realistic than what we currently have.  I don't think I'll be playing another class/level game after the debacle that is Age of Conan.

It just feels to elementary and restricted.  I want virtual freedom, I don't want some nerd who writes quests for the game I play to determine my path for me, step by step. 

Level/class = lame and dated

well all classes in TCoS are hybrids and I wouldnt really say the combat is the same as AoC,In AoC you just had to be facing the right direction and in range were as with TCoS you have a sight the same as in fps and all attacks/heals must be aimed and hit to be successful.

I am also waiting on TCoS and hope it will be a huge success,not only because I have been waiting for it for sometime but if it pulls it off well then maybe other devs will take notice and we can get away from the mmo mould that almost if not all games use these days.

Well, after some intense research, I am seeing some really large titles that will be coming out in the not-so-close-but-neither-distant future. Take Fallen Earth for example, they seem to have taken hints from previous developers that a class based game has been done too many times and are not producing a total skill based game. I will be watching this game closely now also.

The great thing about the skill based MMO's is you can just be those classes and not have to choose them. Maybe pre-selected templates or something for people who aren't familiar with those sort of games, but I hate classes.

The idea too that some classes will have abilities not obtainable by that of another class is something I also wouldn't like. I suppose you get the when your still playing UO=D

3 games on my list of games to look out for; Mortal Online, Fallen Earth, and Darkfall.

Anarchy Online uses a hybrid system between class and skill base (see here for a short discussion on it: mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/192196). The role of professions is determined by their nano+perk toolset, but every profession can use every kind of weapon (there's some profession locked weapons though). Free players (without perks) and support oriented profs (without specialization in any specific type of weapon) have the most freedom of choice (they loose the least or even gain the most for not using their typical prof weapons).

Another thing is that in my experience skill based games can be played as class based games, but not the other way around. In Ryzom I've known a player who had 240+ skill in healing and her second highest skill was only 130: without forced class restriction you can still play a dedicated role. Myself, I always tried to be either a healer or mentat in groups in Ryzom, but I could fill other roles at lower levels. It is the same with crafting, I could have started learning every craft, but I chose to specialize in light armor.

In Ryzom it was also not possible to switch from caster to fighter in mid fight, light armored people can't take a beating and someone in heavy armor drains his entire manapool with one spell.

all classes in TCOS are hybrid.

the closest thing to skill based in the game though is that after each level you can invest in three stats, and you can duplicate skills and upgrade them(a bit more damage, faster tier rotation).

as for player skill based yes it's there there's a lot of it, if you try to play it like a nomral MMO you will die in the starter area over and over and over.  As for character skill based it's not, those that like skill based games will like the system but they'll also know that it's not skill based.

We already have plenty of class & skill-based MMOs. How do you think you skill up your weapon and crafting skills in World of Warcraft for example? They used a minimum use based system. This is pretty common, most MMORPGs allow crafting to be skilled up in this manner along with weapon skills

If you going to force me into a Class well there goes the sandbox element of building my character. That is usually not what people have in mind when we look for a skill-based game. 

Originally posted by Zyllos

...

Now take the two elements in these two games, skill based and class based, and meld them together. Have each class have a common pool of skills and a specialized pool of skills that fit with the class.

Example: Like a Warrior class could have all the common skill types, like Running, Endurance Training, you know, skills that work all across each character in the game. Then have a list of skills JUST for the Warrior class like Unarmed, Hand to Hand, 1h Weapons, 2h Weapons, Axe/Sword/Mace/Dagger/Staff/Fist/Claws/Ect Specializations, Light/Medium/Heavy Armor Training, ect. Mage class would have the common skills types, like all other classes, but contain spellcasting schools of different types of magic and whatnot.

You could even take this a bit further and introduce either hybrid classes in the game which contain a selective mix of skills between the core classes and may even introduce some uniques of their own or have a dual class system in place to allow classes to take skills outside their main class, but of course, maybe have some type of penality. Maybe you can only go half as high as the secondary class or skill points cost double outside the primary class. But this should not be forced to where every player needs a primary class and a secondary, only if the player wanted too. Most likely, just having hybrid classes would fit this type of game style better.

Why, if some love class based and some love skill based, can the two not be melded together to produce a just, what else can I say, totally badass game?

Honestly, how hard can it be for developers to come up with something unique instead of all of them mostly being class/level based and some being skill based? Maybe there is not any other system but skill and class/level based but if you meld the two together, that is something unique. Honestly, I think the SWG system was set up like this if I remember.

Either way, I hopefully will see something unique in the near future, or the future is going to look grim for MMO players.

Discuss.

You have just described Dungeons & Dragons Online .

• Wizards can be built to be fighters, Rangers can be built to tank, Barbarians can be built to use magic scrolls/wands, etc...
• Each character can have up to three different classes, each with some of their own specific enhancements. Enhancements are anything from skill boosts, to special attacks, to stat boosts.
•  Each class has access to every skill (with the exception of trap disabling skills, need to be part rogue for those), but some are more expensive depending on your class.

 There is player skill involved in the combat as well, You can dodge attacks and spells using the environment, skills, and your own reflexes. There is a free trial available so you have nothing to lose by giving it a shot.

http://trial.ddo.com/

Originally posted by Zyllos

I was just thinking about this waiting on two MMOs to be released (and re-released). One of those is Ryzom. I have heard a little bit about the game and asked a few questions and found out it is skill based. Now, I have only played SWG when it was skill based and that was an unique experience, and everyone can agree.

Now the other game is The Chronicles of Spellborn. Now this game has your typical class level base gameplay, albit with other unique elements onto itself (playing kinda like AoC where your targetting is controlled) with a combo and tiered attack system. Especially love the fact that there is no gear to find in the game. You only need the enhancements (sigils), jewelry, and weapon (I think). All armor (and maybe weapons) are only for aesthetic purposes, which is just freaking kewl.

Now take the two elements in these two games, skill based and class based, and meld them together. Have each class have a common pool of skills and a specialized pool of skills that fit with the class.

Example: Like a Warrior class could have all the common skill types, like Running, Endurance Training, you know, skills that work all across each character in the game. Then have a list of skills JUST for the Warrior class like Unarmed, Hand to Hand, 1h Weapons, 2h Weapons, Axe/Sword/Mace/Dagger/Staff/Fist/Claws/Ect Specializations, Light/Medium/Heavy Armor Training, ect. Mage class would have the common skills types, like all other classes, but contain spellcasting schools of different types of magic and whatnot.

You could even take this a bit further and introduce either hybrid classes in the game which contain a selective mix of skills between the core classes and may even introduce some uniques of their own or have a dual class system in place to allow classes to take skills outside their main class, but of course, maybe have some type of penality. Maybe you can only go half as high as the secondary class or skill points cost double outside the primary class. But this should not be forced to where every player needs a primary class and a secondary, only if the player wanted too. Most likely, just having hybrid classes would fit this type of game style better.

Why, if some love class based and some love skill based, can the two not be melded together to produce a just, what else can I say, totally badass game?

Honestly, how hard can it be for developers to come up with something unique instead of all of them mostly being class/level based and some being skill based? Maybe there is not any other system but skill and class/level based but if you meld the two together, that is something unique. Honestly, I think the SWG system was set up like this if I remember.

Either way, I hopefully will see something unique in the near future, or the future is going to look grim for MMO players.

Discuss.

Morrowind did good job of mixing skill training get a class and lvl.
 

just install Oblivion and install OOO mod if you dont want the mobs to scale with you

People give oblivion much flak yet they forget people modded it to get rid of the mob scaling. Darn shame what makes oblivion all the more fun is all the mods (PC version)

I am starting to believe it is important to have classes in a group based game.  If you are playing a single player game with one character like Oblivion it's OK to have access to everything, but in a group based game you want to have roles for characters in the group.  It seems the best way to go is to have some archtypes and then allow for customization of each archtype so that the player has some choice in developing their characters, but the structure for roles in group stays intact.

Originally posted by Zyllos

I was just thinking about this waiting on two MMOs to be released (and re-released). One of those is Ryzom. I have heard a little bit about the game and asked a few questions and found out it is skill based. Now, I have only played SWG when it was skill based and that was an unique experience, and everyone can agree.

Now the other game is The Chronicles of Spellborn. Now this game has your typical class level base gameplay, albit with other unique elements onto itself (playing kinda like AoC where your targetting is controlled) with a combo and tiered attack system. Especially love the fact that there is no gear to find in the game. You only need the enhancements (sigils), jewelry, and weapon (I think). All armor (and maybe weapons) are only for aesthetic purposes, which is just freaking kewl.

Now take the two elements in these two games, skill based and class based, and meld them together. Have each class have a common pool of skills and a specialized pool of skills that fit with the class.

Example: Like a Warrior class could have all the common skill types, like Running, Endurance Training, you know, skills that work all across each character in the game. Then have a list of skills JUST for the Warrior class like Unarmed, Hand to Hand, 1h Weapons, 2h Weapons, Axe/Sword/Mace/Dagger/Staff/Fist/Claws/Ect Specializations, Light/Medium/Heavy Armor Training, ect. Mage class would have the common skills types, like all other classes, but contain spellcasting schools of different types of magic and whatnot.

You could even take this a bit further and introduce either hybrid classes in the game which contain a selective mix of skills between the core classes and may even introduce some uniques of their own or have a dual class system in place to allow classes to take skills outside their main class, but of course, maybe have some type of penality. Maybe you can only go half as high as the secondary class or skill points cost double outside the primary class. But this should not be forced to where every player needs a primary class and a secondary, only if the player wanted too. Most likely, just having hybrid classes would fit this type of game style better.

Why, if some love class based and some love skill based, can the two not be melded together to produce a just, what else can I say, totally badass game?

Honestly, how hard can it be for developers to come up with something unique instead of all of them mostly being class/level based and some being skill based? Maybe there is not any other system but skill and class/level based but if you meld the two together, that is something unique. Honestly, I think the SWG system was set up like this if I remember.

Either way, I hopefully will see something unique in the near future, or the future is going to look grim for MMO players.

Discuss.

Class cannot be restrictive, rather, it should be just a "guide-line", not the "rule"...  In a skill-based system you CAN become different classes (hybrid or not) without ever implementing the rigid class-system into the game.  All you have to do is to create class/profession ranking titles that can be obtained through satisfying certain requirements.

For example, A person must have x boxes in melee skills tree (either in any of the following: Unarmed, Sword(1h/2h), Axe (1h/2h), etc...) in order get <Warrior> class/profession title, or they must have y boxes in magic in order to be Mage, and so on and so forth.  It's not that hard a system to think about...

Originally posted by Flyte27

I am starting to believe it is important to have classes in a group based game.  If you are playing a single player game with one character like Oblivion it's OK to have access to everything, but in a group based game you want to have roles for characters in the group.  It seems the best way to go is to have some archtypes and then allow for customization of each archtype so that the player has some choice in developing their characters, but the structure for roles in group stays intact.

Important? possibly...  Depends on the encounter system and group mechanics to assign role.  I prefer one that doesn't focus on classes for group encounter system (that is, 5 warriors can function just as well as 5 mage, or whatever the mix of templates/class/professions). 

You are more or less focus on the choices AFTER restriction, but that system normally punish me for my playstyle, hence I rather have choices and NO restriction (class)...

Why arn't more people supporting the swgemu if they loved swg soo much?

Originally posted by Flyte27

I am starting to believe it is important to have classes in a group based game.  If you are playing a single player game with one character like Oblivion it's OK to have access to everything, but in a group based game you want to have roles for characters in the group.  It seems the best way to go is to have some archtypes and then allow for customization of each archtype so that the player has some choice in developing their characters, but the structure for roles in group stays intact.

Roles can be dynamically assigned via the armor you have on or ship you pilot. EVE Online has plenty of roles. In Saga of Ryzom, the armor you put on constrains your abilities. You can recognize a mage type due to the robes they have on from what I gather so far. Same with Tank type. Same with ranged fighter type

You don't need hard defined Classes to assign roles. Never did. We have armor reppers, tankers, scouts, etc in EVE just like you have in a Class based MMO. The main key is that developers used their noggin' instead of spitting up another static Class based system. Instead of being locked into a static Class in EVE, players can dock at station and switch into the appropriate ship type for the job.

Also the early pen and paper skill-based games got by just fine in group settings as well. They knew each other "role" in a group. Having access to everything doesn't mean 'chaos' necessarily. Still to this day you can find many popular PnP like Scion where it's all skill-based (made by CCP/White Wolf btw). IT's always been incorrect to assume we don't have roles.

Even Elder Scrolls system has penalties for wearing Heavy armor and trying to use Magic. My mage wore robes so she could cast spells unhindered

Originally posted by vajuras

Originally posted by Flyte27

I am starting to believe it is important to have classes in a group based game.  If you are playing a single player game with one character like Oblivion it's OK to have access to everything, but in a group based game you want to have roles for characters in the group.  It seems the best way to go is to have some archtypes and then allow for customization of each archtype so that the player has some choice in developing their characters, but the structure for roles in group stays intact.

 

Roles can be dynamically assigned via the armor you have on or ship you pilot. EVE Online has plenty of roles. In Saga of Ryzom, the armor you put on constrains your abilities. You can recognize a mage type due to the robes they have on from what I gather so far. Same with Tank type. Same with ranged fighter type

 

You don't need hard defined Classes to assign roles. Never did. We have armor reppers, tankers, scouts, etc in EVE just like you have in a Class based MMO. The main key is that developers used their noggin' instead of spitting up another static Class based system. Instead of being locked into a static Class in EVE, players can dock at station and switch into the appropriate ship type for the job.

 

Also the early pen and paper skill-based games got by just fine in group settings as well. They knew each other "role" in a group. Having access to everything doesn't mean 'chaos' necessarily. Still to this day you can find many popular PnP like Scion where it's all skill-based (made by CCP/White Wolf btw). IT's always been incorrect to assume we don't have roles.

Even Elder Scrolls system has penalties for wearing Heavy armor and trying to use Magic. My mage wore robes so she could cast spells unhindered

Your right that it's possible, but it's a lot easier for everyone who is forming a group to look in a group tool and see what archtype you are.  If you have to look at someones armor to tell what they are in a game thats a problem considering they might have a lot of different skills from different archtypes.  I do like the skill system and the freedom it offers, but I think the freedom comes with a big price.  Especially in a group based game.

Originally posted by Forcan

Originally posted by Flyte27

I am starting to believe it is important to have classes in a group based game.  If you are playing a single player game with one character like Oblivion it's OK to have access to everything, but in a group based game you want to have roles for characters in the group.  It seems the best way to go is to have some archtypes and then allow for customization of each archtype so that the player has some choice in developing their characters, but the structure for roles in group stays intact.

 

Important? possibly...  Depends on the encounter system and group mechanics to assign role.  I prefer one that doesn't focus on classes for group encounter system (that is, 5 warriors can function just as well as 5 mage, or whatever the mix of templates/class/professions). 

You are more or less focus on the choices AFTER restriction, but that system normally punish me for my playstyle, hence I rather have choices and NO restriction (class)...

I see your point, but I generally enjoy games where you have a well balanced group.  If you can win with any combination the combat generally ends up being everyone running in and DPS.  That is very boring as it requires no strategy at all generally.

Originally posted by Flyte27

Originally posted by vajuras

Originally posted by Flyte27

I am starting to believe it is important to have classes in a group based game.  If you are playing a single player game with one character like Oblivion it's OK to have access to everything, but in a group based game you want to have roles for characters in the group.  It seems the best way to go is to have some archtypes and then allow for customization of each archtype so that the player has some choice in developing their characters, but the structure for roles in group stays intact.

 

Roles can be dynamically assigned via the armor you have on or ship you pilot. EVE Online has plenty of roles. In Saga of Ryzom, the armor you put on constrains your abilities. You can recognize a mage type due to the robes they have on from what I gather so far. Same with Tank type. Same with ranged fighter type

 

You don't need hard defined Classes to assign roles. Never did. We have armor reppers, tankers, scouts, etc in EVE just like you have in a Class based MMO. The main key is that developers used their noggin' instead of spitting up another static Class based system. Instead of being locked into a static Class in EVE, players can dock at station and switch into the appropriate ship type for the job.

 

Also the early pen and paper skill-based games got by just fine in group settings as well. They knew each other "role" in a group. Having access to everything doesn't mean 'chaos' necessarily. Still to this day you can find many popular PnP like Scion where it's all skill-based (made by CCP/White Wolf btw). IT's always been incorrect to assume we don't have roles.

Even Elder Scrolls system has penalties for wearing Heavy armor and trying to use Magic. My mage wore robes so she could cast spells unhindered

 

Your right that it's possible, but it's a lot easier for everyone who is forming a group to look in a group tool and see what archtype you are.  If you have to look at someones armor to tell what they are in a game thats a problem considering they might have a lot of different skills from different archtypes.  I do like the skill system and the freedom it offers, but I think the freedom comes with a big price.  Especially in a group based game.

Did you play EVE Online? Armor Reppers signal to the Fleet they are healing by pinging the Group UI. Also, in the Fleet UI you can organize your sniper fleet, scouts, Battleships, etc.

Our roles are not only visually apparent in EVE, they are also clearly viewable in the group UI

Also, the ship type you fly totally binds your powers.

Look, a scout ship in EVE has only like 1 gun. What DPS can this guy do? Nothing. My scout ship doesnt even have 1 gun he has a probe launcher mounted as a matter of fact like most scouts.

In skill-based games we are totally binded by the armor / gear we have on.

Originally posted by Flyte27

Originally posted by vajuras

Originally posted by Flyte27

I am starting to believe it is important to have classes in a group based game.  If you are playing a single player game with one character like Oblivion it's OK to have access to everything, but in a group based game you want to have roles for characters in the group.  It seems the best way to go is to have some archtypes and then allow for customization of each archtype so that the player has some choice in developing their characters, but the structure for roles in group stays intact.

 

Roles can be dynamically assigned via the armor you have on or ship you pilot. EVE Online has plenty of roles. In Saga of Ryzom, the armor you put on constrains your abilities. You can recognize a mage type due to the robes they have on from what I gather so far. Same with Tank type. Same with ranged fighter type

 

You don't need hard defined Classes to assign roles. Never did. We have armor reppers, tankers, scouts, etc in EVE just like you have in a Class based MMO. The main key is that developers used their noggin' instead of spitting up another static Class based system. Instead of being locked into a static Class in EVE, players can dock at station and switch into the appropriate ship type for the job.

 

Also the early pen and paper skill-based games got by just fine in group settings as well. They knew each other "role" in a group. Having access to everything doesn't mean 'chaos' necessarily. Still to this day you can find many popular PnP like Scion where it's all skill-based (made by CCP/White Wolf btw). IT's always been incorrect to assume we don't have roles.

Even Elder Scrolls system has penalties for wearing Heavy armor and trying to use Magic. My mage wore robes so she could cast spells unhindered

 

Your right that it's possible, but it's a lot easier for everyone who is forming a group to look in a group tool and see what archtype you are.  If you have to look at someones armor to tell what they are in a game thats a problem considering they might have a lot of different skills from different archtypes.  I do like the skill system and the freedom it offers, but I think the freedom comes with a big price.  Especially in a group based game.

Ah grouping tools for forming PUBs? There is no need for grouping tools like that. In sandbox games there is no group limits. You let whoever wants to come, come. In EVE, we would bring entire guild to PVE/PVP encounters if they all wanted to come. This money would go towards running the guild

Sorry I did not address that question

Also in City of Heroes they had a grouping tool it was one of the first. CoX was very generic Classes. You didnt know if a Defender could heal or rez or was purely buffer.

So everyone could put in a 1 line description describing their character.

Good point but Cryptic already solved that easily. Grouping interface is simple, just let a person indicate what they can do with a recognizable icon.

Skill-based games completely overlap Class based titles in everyway. There is nothing Class based titles can do that a skill-based developer cannot do. always been this way since early PnP games