1) Levels.

Levels are a cheap, poor way to provide instant gratifications to the masses that are unable to find other ways to make progress. This arbitrary number slapped on the top of a character's head has the ability to render a great majority of game content completely worthless. I hate the idea that this number is the sole determination on how strong your character is, and what the outcome of the fight will be. Remove levels, and make some games with skill box based systems!

2) Loot based economies

Loot based economies essential make time in game take precedence over skill. Being able to devote more of your life to a game shouldn't mean you automatically dominate those who can't play as much. Allow player skill to actually play a part in a fight, not just how many purples each person has. Loot also makes people run the same boring awful dungeons over and over again just so they can get that one item to drop. Loot based systems more often then not make crafting a pointless hobby for the select few that enjoy it. Very rarely do you see a loot based system with a creative, meaningful crafting system. Remove loot based systems and make crafters the major suppliers!

3) Simplicity

Why has simple become better? Some of us out here still like to think when we play our games. Some of us are more than mindless drones waiting to be spoon fed what to do next in my epic pre-determined saga of heroism that everyone else will endure. I want to think, I want to be challenged! Remove simplicity and challenge me!

4) XP penalties for grouping

This one makes no sense to me. Why punish people for grouping up and working together in an online game designed for people to group up and work together? All XP penalties do is encourage solo play defeats the purpose of MMORPGs. Remove XP penalties for grouping and encourage social interaction again!

5) Boring linear gameplay

I absolutely despise questing. It's boring, incredibly repetitive, and because of number 3 on my list, lonely. I also hate being forced to quest. Occasionally I'll quest  with someone, but it doesn't make much sense when all it does is slow you down. The worst part of forced questing to level is, if you decide to level another character, you have to do the same horrible quests again. My favorite way to level was the ways of Star Wars Galaxies. Sure, it was boring repetitive grinding on mobs, but the difference is that I was with a full group of people, and just interacting with them was far more entertaining then any static repetitive quest could ever be. Remove boring linear gameplay and figure other ways to progress!

6) FANTASY!

For god's sake how many fantasy MMO's do we have to drown in every single year? I was never a big fan of fantasy, but lately that's all we see. Fantasy fantasy fantasy! Give us a good Sci-fi MMO, or think of some theme completely different! Remove the fantasy and be original!

7) Official forums

Has anything good ever come from having Official forums for a game? Nearly every game I've ever seen with official forums, they become nothing more then a stagnant swamp of tears from all the most vocal whiners in the community. Whats worse is many times the developers start to listen to these whiners. Remove official forums and make the game the way you want it!

8) Instancing(from bloodytv and I agree)

Instancing seperates the community and makes pickup groups difficult.  A dungeon/world should be big enough that if some place has people, there are other places in that said world/dungeon to go that can provide a good challenge/loot.

9) Small Scale PvP

Battlegrounds, arenas, and the likes all start out fun, and can still be fun on occasion, but eventually just turn into another form of dungeon grinding. Small scale instanced pvp takes away from the feeling of fighting in a larger conflict and is incredibly repetitive. Remove small scale PvP and give us a reason to take part in world PvP!

I know I have more but thats all I can think of right now. Add on or comment as you wish.

Add item malls to that list

Originally posted by tillamook

Add item malls to that list

and nudity.

Originally posted by tillamook

Add item malls to that list

I would have added that if it was more prevalent in U.S. MMO's as I can't stand the idea of a cash shop either. But luckily they aren't mainstream here yet.

Instancing; it seperates the community and makes pickup groups difficult.  A dungeon/world should be big enough that if some place has people, there are other places in that said world/dungeon to go that can provide a good challenge/loot.

Boring boss fights.  What happened to the puzzle boss fights that requires a group to coordinate and act quickly?  Now it's just one monster with lots of weaker mobs.  Put back the puzzles, the problem solving and the guessing.  Put back the feeling that maybe we'll all die if we trip the wrong wire.

Numerous load zones.  I don't mind a zone base game as long as it isn't a load zone every five minutes.  "Oh yes I think I'm going to go to this dungeon LOADING... oh a prison section LOADING...  Let's go into a store LOADING...  Let's walk 500 meters to the next zone LOADING...  Let's moving on to the next point LOADING...

If you're going to have load zones, try to make them entertaining.  I don't care if the game is PRELOADING RESOURCES, GENERATING GEOMETRY, RETICULATING SPLINES, RENDERING OBJECTS. At least have some humor.

How about give options...?

You just say: remove X. How about say: remove X, replace with Y.

Hmm? Too hard for you?

Hardly ever seen anyone complaining about X, and giving a acceptable Y. Normally they replace it with crap ideas, that on one agrees with...

remove crafting

crafting always ends up hurting the adventurer and leads to ruined economies, gold sellers and farming. Crafters make up maybe 10% of a mmos population yet they control and influence the other 90%'s gameplay often negatively

Originally posted by gath

How about give options...?

You just say: remove X. How about say: remove X, replace with Y.

Hmm? Too hard for you?

Hardly ever seen anyone complaining about X, and giving a acceptable Y. Normally they replace it with crap ideas, that on one agrees with...

lol you need to actually read the whole post. On nearly everything on the list that I wanted removed, I gave the alternative(if there was one) I preferred. But I did enjoy your misinformed, stuck up sarcasm.

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by gath

How about give options...?

You just say: remove X. How about say: remove X, replace with Y.

Hmm? Too hard for you?

Hardly ever seen anyone complaining about X, and giving a acceptable Y. Normally they replace it with crap ideas, that on one agrees with...

 

lol you need to actually read the whole post. On nearly everything on the list that I wanted removed, I gave the alternative(if there was one) I preferred. But I did enjoy your misinformed, stuck up sarcasm.

i r drunk/high like i havent been in years -.o

HAHAHAHAH... hehe... ehe.

Originally posted by gath

How about give options...?

You just say: remove X. How about say: remove X, replace with Y.

Hmm? Too hard for you?

Hardly ever seen anyone complaining about X, and giving a acceptable Y. Normally they replace it with crap ideas, that on one agrees with...

Amen.

Simplicity is there to attract the masses for SALES.  Sure there are enough gamers out there to provide decent profit with a complex game, but all those millions upon millions of people.  WoW set a standard with simplicity and they instantly dominated the market.  now all other MMO games want to tap into that resource and they struggle to do it because Blizzard is a beast when it comes to publicity and polish.  A good company will make something simple but add a good depth of compleity to it for the hardcore player.

Instancing.  Damnit I hated in DAOC, I would go into the darkness falls or vendo caverns with a team only to find the entrance camped.  Go in deeper and you find another area camped.  Get to the point where you have quest and you camp one little spot as you wait for monsters to spawn.  BORING.  Plus all those tactics and CC were never used as you killed mobs as they spawned.

Instanced dungeons provide a set guantlet, that your team must have SKILLS to get through.  No other players get in the way of your challenge.  No one else to dull the experience.  also you can experience epic cutscene storylines through instancing.

No levels, no dependancy on items.  honestly you can only do without one or the other.  How the hell are players going to gain power for the harder challenges in the game if they don't recieve level ups or item bonuses.  Without either of these you cold basically have a level one character trek into the ultimate doom dungeon with a pertner and see the best the game has to offer right at day one.  Even a skill based game is one of leveling in a sense.

You show me a game where you could encounter awesome awe inspiring battles of doom, rewards for players, in depth questing, exploration of new areas with danger; yet no levels and no powerful itemization.

Even real life has "level ups"  you learn a skill, you focus on it, you get better, then you move up in life and afford better things.  Even fallout 2 had friggin levels.  I just don't understand how a game is not supposed to have these 2 things. 

Linear gamplay.  you kind of need a set path of progression for players.  The more open a game is the fewer set challenges there will be.  You'll get a lot of quest like, kill 10 of these for farmer Jon.  craft this item for maid Sue.  Woopy doo! 

I am in favor of a more open game world with a wide variety of challenges in each area.  But having level 1/ noob quest at the Ultimate Demon Gods fortress is a little odd.  Every area can't have noob quest and every area cant have high end content.  you would have to somehow section off these different difficulty quest so noob players don't get trapped in over their head.

Nearly everything you guys want to get rid of in todays mmo market are needed to make games engaging and complete.  Old school games with bland graphics and a stagnat world, frozen in time, were able to support non instanced dungeons, non linear gameplay.  Todays games are too graphically intense to support super huge dungeons that could house hundreds of people at once and STILL remain visually interesting.  todays game tell a story and that every player should experience, no matter when they join the game. 

Edited for content.

Originally posted by Abrahmm

1) Levels.

Levels are a cheap, poor way to provide instant gratifications to the masses that are unable to find other ways to make progress. This arbitrary number slapped on the top of a character's head has the ability to render a great majority of game content completely worthless. I hate the idea that this number is the sole determination on how strong your character is, and what the outcome of the fight will be. Remove levels, and make some games with skill box based systems!

2) Loot based economies

Loot based economies essential make time in game take precedence over skill. Being able to devote more of your life to a game shouldn't mean you automatically dominate those who can't play as much. Allow player skill to actually play a part in a fight, not just how many purples each person has. Loot also makes people run the same boring awful dungeons over and over again just so they can get that one item to drop. Loot based systems more often then not make crafting a pointless hobby for the select few that enjoy it. Very rarely do you see a loot based system with a creative, meaningful crafting system. Remove loot based systems and make crafters the major suppliers!

3) Simplicity

Why has simple become better? Some of us out here still like to think when we play our games. Some of us are more than mindless drones waiting to be spoon fed what to do next in my epic pre-determined saga of heroism that everyone else will endure. I want to think, I want to be challenged! Remove simplicity and challenge me!

4) XP penalties for grouping

This one makes no sense to me. Why punish people for grouping up and working together in an online game designed for people to group up and work together? All XP penalties do is encourage solo play defeats the purpose of MMORPGs. Remove XP penalties for grouping and encourage social interaction again!

5) Boring linear gameplay

I absolutely despise questing. It's boring, incredibly repetitive, and because of number 3 on my list, lonely. I also hate being forced to quest. Occasionally I'll quest  with someone, but it doesn't make much sense when all it does is slow you down. The worst part of forced questing to level is, if you decide to level another character, you have to do the same horrible quests again. My favorite way to level was the ways of Star Wars Galaxies. Sure, it was boring repetitive grinding on mobs, but the difference is that I was with a full group of people, and just interacting with them was far more entertaining then any static repetitive quest could ever be. Remove boring linear gameplay and figure other ways to progress!

6) FANTASY!

For god's sake how many fantasy MMO's do we have to drown in every single year? I was never a big fan of fantasy, but lately that's all we see. Fantasy fantasy fantasy! Give us a good Sci-fi MMO, or think of some theme completely different! Remove the fantasy and be original!

7) Official forums

Has anything good ever come from having Official forums for a game? Nearly every game I've ever seen with official forums, they become nothing more then a stagnant swamp of tears from all the most vocal whiners in the community. Whats worse is many times the developers start to listen to these whiners. Remove official forums and make the game the way you want it!

8) Instancing(from bloodytv and I agree)

Instancing seperates the community and makes pickup groups difficult.  A dungeon/world should be big enough that if some place has people, there are other places in that said world/dungeon to go that can provide a good challenge/loot.

9) Small Scale PvP

Battlegrounds, arenas, and the likes all start out fun, and can still be fun on occasion, but eventually just turn into another form of dungeon grinding. Small scale instanced pvp takes away from the feeling of fighting in a larger conflict and is incredibly repetitive. Remove small scale PvP and give us a reason to take part in world PvP!

I know I have more but thats all I can think of right now. Add on or comment as you wish.

I like quests.  You can and many do still group when doing quests it's fun.  I'd take quests with grouping over just grinding and grouping any day.
 

Skill based and level based are the same.  Skill even has little numbers telling you what your skill is and how advanced you are.  Your doing the exact same thing for the exact same reason.  I think you mean more class based where you cannot pick your skills. But most skill based games have some levels as well, even the holy (I thought boring) swg pre-cu which was skills had levels, those skills were divided into basically beginnner, intermediate, expert.

Instancing can be good.  Give me instanced dungeons and some mobs.  Sorry but I game for entertainment and waiting for everyone else do do it first is not entertaining.

Official forums.  I rarely use them but it is nice to have an official place to go and vent and maybe have the devs listen, and definaly (should be) have a place for the devs to officially communicate.

Everything else on your list I'll go for.

Venge Sunsoar

Originally posted by sanders01

People like you.

Whats wrong with what he was asking? They're all wonderful ideas. He's just tired of the watered down, made for the masses, shallow games designed to suck up as much money as possible. WoW, Age of Conan, ect ect...

The problem used to be grinding mobs took forever and was boring. So they gave us quests. Now quests are even worse of a grind, and destroy community. No one has to group together anymore.

Quests should give some EXP, but it shouldn't be the only way to level. Groups should be given MORE experience for being together (as was the case in Dark Age of Camelot) and quests should be fewer, and more in depth. It would be nice if people would actually be together again in MMOs.

Originally posted by SignusM

Originally posted by sanders01

People like you.

 

Whats wrong with what he was asking? They're all wonderful ideas. He's just tired of the watered down, made for the masses, shallow games designed to suck up as much money as possible. WoW, Age of Conan, ect ect...

The problem used to be grinding mobs took forever and was boring. So they gave us quests. Now quests are even worse of a grind, and destroy community. No one has to group together anymore.

Quests should give some EXP, but it shouldn't be the only way to level. Groups should be given MORE experience for being together (as was the case in Dark Age of Camelot) and quests should be fewer, and more in depth. It would be nice if people would actually be together again in MMOs.

I dont agree, I love today's mmos. WoW, EQII, etc. is what I really enjoy to play.

its called TF2.. you should pick it up.

Hi everyone

I come from playing the greatest game that I ever ran into, The Sims Online, but EA has pulled the plug on it >:(

Now I am in GREAT search of a game that is SIMILAR to that - with NO FIGHTING in it... and I seem to have some difficulty finding one... (which is really sad when you think about it, when majority of games out there are about fighting and killing... and we don't think we're in trouble with our kids??)

Anyway sry got off subject... If anyone knows of any other game (Besides crappy Second Life, and Kaneva) Please please let me know

Thanks!!  ^_^

Tori

Originally posted by Abrahmm

1) Levels.

Levels are a cheap, poor way to provide instant gratifications to the masses that are unable to find other ways to make progress. This arbitrary number slapped on the top of a character's head has the ability to render a great majority of game content completely worthless. I hate the idea that this number is the sole determination on how strong your character is, and what the outcome of the fight will be. Remove levels, and make some games with skill box based systems!

2) Loot based economies

Loot based economies essential make time in game take precedence over skill. Being able to devote more of your life to a game shouldn't mean you automatically dominate those who can't play as much. Allow player skill to actually play a part in a fight, not just how many purples each person has. Loot also makes people run the same boring awful dungeons over and over again just so they can get that one item to drop. Loot based systems more often then not make crafting a pointless hobby for the select few that enjoy it. Very rarely do you see a loot based system with a creative, meaningful crafting system. Remove loot based systems and make crafters the major suppliers!

3) Simplicity

Why has simple become better? Some of us out here still like to think when we play our games. Some of us are more than mindless drones waiting to be spoon fed what to do next in my epic pre-determined saga of heroism that everyone else will endure. I want to think, I want to be challenged! Remove simplicity and challenge me!

4) XP penalties for grouping

This one makes no sense to me. Why punish people for grouping up and working together in an online game designed for people to group up and work together? All XP penalties do is encourage solo play defeats the purpose of MMORPGs. Remove XP penalties for grouping and encourage social interaction again!

5) Boring linear gameplay

I absolutely despise questing. It's boring, incredibly repetitive, and because of number 3 on my list, lonely. I also hate being forced to quest. Occasionally I'll quest  with someone, but it doesn't make much sense when all it does is slow you down. The worst part of forced questing to level is, if you decide to level another character, you have to do the same horrible quests again. My favorite way to level was the ways of Star Wars Galaxies. Sure, it was boring repetitive grinding on mobs, but the difference is that I was with a full group of people, and just interacting with them was far more entertaining then any static repetitive quest could ever be. Remove boring linear gameplay and figure other ways to progress!

6) FANTASY!

For god's sake how many fantasy MMO's do we have to drown in every single year? I was never a big fan of fantasy, but lately that's all we see. Fantasy fantasy fantasy! Give us a good Sci-fi MMO, or think of some theme completely different! Remove the fantasy and be original!

7) Official forums

Has anything good ever come from having Official forums for a game? Nearly every game I've ever seen with official forums, they become nothing more then a stagnant swamp of tears from all the most vocal whiners in the community. Whats worse is many times the developers start to listen to these whiners. Remove official forums and make the game the way you want it!

8) Instancing(from bloodytv and I agree)

Instancing seperates the community and makes pickup groups difficult.  A dungeon/world should be big enough that if some place has people, there are other places in that said world/dungeon to go that can provide a good challenge/loot.

9) Small Scale PvP

Battlegrounds, arenas, and the likes all start out fun, and can still be fun on occasion, but eventually just turn into another form of dungeon grinding. Small scale instanced pvp takes away from the feeling of fighting in a larger conflict and is incredibly repetitive. Remove small scale PvP and give us a reason to take part in world PvP!

I know I have more but thats all I can think of right now. Add on or comment as you wish.

I definitely agree with 1, 3, 4 and 6.

I disagree (partly) with 2 - While I completely agree that skill should determine the end result, I also feel that players who spend more time in the game world are justly rewarded. They 'worked' for it playing a large amount of time while others who don't (for whatever reason) didn't 'work' as much. Bottom line is, while gear should be useful, it shouldn't be the determining factor.

I disagree with 5 - I honestly would rather be questing than mindlessly grinding. And I guess to a point it's basically the same thing, but the trick with quests the devs need to do is disguise the 'grind' better.

I disagree with 7 - Official forums are great resources for game information, player help, meeting new people and other stuff. While there are the occasional idiots, it doesn't hurt to just ignore them.

I disagree (partly) with 8 - If we're talking about instanced dungeons, I have to disagree 100% (based on how many people play the game). If I had to wait in line to kill a boss for loot/exp/quests I would definitely be annoyed. If we're talking about instanced zones, yeah, to hell with that stuff.

I disagree with 9 - I actually find these kinds of fights to be very entertaining. I guess it's all based around how the game is built, but I find it better than just a raid of people zerging a fortress.

The main one I really have to support you on is number 4 (assuming we have to deal with leveling). I absolutely hate that shit. This is probably the best feature of CoX imo. More exp for grouping with friends. I'll think on other stuff that needs to be taken later...It's getting late here.

Originally posted by sanders01

Originally posted by SignusM

Originally posted by sanders01

People like you.

 

Whats wrong with what he was asking? They're all wonderful ideas. He's just tired of the watered down, made for the masses, shallow games designed to suck up as much money as possible. WoW, Age of Conan, ect ect...

The problem used to be grinding mobs took forever and was boring. So they gave us quests. Now quests are even worse of a grind, and destroy community. No one has to group together anymore.

Quests should give some EXP, but it shouldn't be the only way to level. Groups should be given MORE experience for being together (as was the case in Dark Age of Camelot) and quests should be fewer, and more in depth. It would be nice if people would actually be together again in MMOs.

I dont agree, I love today's mmos. WoW, EQII, etc. is what I really enjoy to play.

There seem to be two main factions here.

There are the old time MMOers who were around for UO, DAoC, EQ, and AC. They were the first, and to many who played them, the best. They were much more in depth, and had a general higher repsect for the player. Or maybe its lack or respect? I don't know. They didn't hold your hand, throw exp at you for free, shower you with loot and quests, and there were actual penalites, they didn't dumb down content, they made games for the money, yes, but they also wanted to make actual RPGs with communities.

Then there is the post WoW faction who has never played an MMO prior to WoW (sad majority of people) they probably wouldn't have been able to handle the pioneer MMOs due to their learning curve. The simplicity of WoW and the following MMOs pulled them in and they never experienced a true living community, without instances, without task quests that throw exp at you, but they seem to enjoy it.

Then there are a few that bleed over from the first generation and don't miss the old games at all. (strange)

I'm curious to know where you fall.

Options it is then.  I'm going to go ahead and give alternatives to all of the things that Abrahmm dislikes.  I want to see if I can get all of this to work...

1) Levels

Simple enough.  You input a purely skill-based system.  If your character goes and, say, hits a Thunder Lizard with his sword, he'll get points in both his Attack Power and your Swordsmanship skills.  Use some magic, and you can level up your use of magic, and possibly a specific kind of magic if you really want to get specific.  Get hit (and don't die as a result) and your defense rises.  Heal somebody and your healing skills grow stronger (although this would be split between healing yourself and healing others, and would be based on whether they actually need it or not, so nobody is running around towns spam-healing people.)

2) Loot based economies

Fair enough.  You craft, and you'll be able to create weapons and armor and other helpful items that easily trump items you get from beating bosses and topling evil empires.  However, this would also take a great deal of experience at crafting to make available.  And, of course, the items one would need to make these wonderful armors and weapons would take quite some effort to track down in themselves.

3) Simplicity

This is a complicated one, obviously.  Appeasing this want will require not only gameplay, but storyline.  For the gameplay side, I suggest a very action-oriented battle system.  A system in which player skill plays a great, big part in how well the character does.  Something like what Blade & Soul is doing, only slightly more westernized in it's overall focus.

Secondly, on the point of story, players wouldn't be straight-on heroic baby-kissing do-gooders or genocidal jerks.  There would be a middle-ground available, and lots of it in fact.  There would be a four-point circle, in which a players actions throughout the game pull them toward Good, Evil, Lawful, or Chaotic, depending on the choices they make.  You would start as Neutral, but quickly turn in various directions depending on your actions, who you kill, who you save, and so-on.  The missions you get and who your friends, and your enemies, may be depends heavily on your alignment.

4) XP penalties for grouping

I agree completely.  In fact, let's put in some minor XP Bonuses for grouping.

5) Boring linear gameplay

Branching is the name of the game here.  Now, as much as I like quests, I don't think that "Go kill ten Young Wolves to collect Gangly Wolf Meat" counts as a quest.  It's more of an odd job, really.  Quests should have a real story to them.  Say, your quest is to take a letter to Dr. Fish-Bowl-On-His-Head.  You get there, and find that he's been murdered, his safe has been broken into and half-emptied, and a trail of bloody footprints are heading away from the body.  You then have a choice.  You can report the scene to the police via a near-by phone, or you can take what remains in his safe and just leave, or you can crack open his mail to see what it is, or you can follow the footprints and try to track down the killer yourself, or you could just leave and toss the letter in the trash on the way out.  And each of these choices results in a completely different experience, and a differing result.  (And, going with the four-pint circle concept above, it would lead to a different kind of character.)

6) FANTASY!

I think you've got it all wrong here, chief.  What you're sick of is Classical Fantasy.  Your LotR-esque adventures with elves and dwarves and orcs and such.  There are tons of other sorts of fantasy, including futuristic fantasy (which is quite often folded into Sci-Fi.  Star Wars actually falls nicely into this category).  However, for the sake of this post, let's go with something quite far from the typical land that WoW so loves.  Thus, a Noir setting.  You know, those old black and white films set around the late 1920's or so.  Lots of men in suits and derbys, lots of mob connections, lots of classic cars and tommy guns.  It's the sort of thing you can't help but picture if you listen to a little bit of Sinatra.  Other great setting ideas range from the simple (A city filled with people who suddenly begin to develop psychic abilities, and are free to use them however they like) to the vile (You're a supervillain.  Go conquer the world, or work for somebody who is trying to do the same... and backstab them. (Though, this game would require almost full-on permadeath)).

7) Official forums

This one is pretty straight-forward.  I happen to like getting my opinion heard on these forums, but this isn't about me here.

8) Instancing(from bloodytv and I agree)

Again, a simple one.  It's not like there's never been a game that's had a large, seamless world for it's players to explore.

9) Small Scale PvP

Arenas tend to be kind-of lame, sure, but I don't think it will be so bad with the combat upgrades mentioned above.  Still, I do have this small idea for a large-scale PVP mode in which players from various countries fight for control over assorted landmarks, and the areas they sit within.  The nation would then have a small force of NPCs spawn in that given place to protect it from player characters from other nations, and that nation's players would be alerted.  In the Noir concept, this would lead to certain factions controlling parts of the city from certain buildings.  Of course, this sort of thing wouldn't be available in non-PVP servers.

So, how was that?

I've never played a MMO prior to WoW. I like simplicity, I see nothing wrong with it. I can log on for a few hours, get something done. Take a break and come back, and not HAVE to go all hardcore at it. I dont like being free, Im a follower, not a leader, I have a sheep type mentality, I follow the herd. I like to be led down paths, and knowing more about the world then just throwing me out there, and say "Go on, your free".