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News & Features Discussion  » Warhammer Online : Age of Reckoning: Correspondent - About Those Cuts...

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General Correspondent

Joined: 2/11/08
Posts: 2429

"We cannot change the cards we are dealt, just how we play the hand" - Randy Pausch

8/01/08 11:03:22 AM#21

The problem is how long "post launch" is.  Weeks, months, without 4 cities?  Doesn't sound great to me...

The only difference here is that WAR is saying their game is incomplete, while Funcom kept it a secret.  While I applaud Mythic for their honesty, it is still an incomplete game...I'm not a fanboy, not a troll, but I realize that when a game is missing four cities, that is NOT good. 

What about other things?  What if there is more than just cities missing?  This just leads to more speculation overtime.

In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08 - Rest In Peace; you will not be forgotten


Advanced Member

Joined: 9/09/06
Posts: 1014

8/01/08 11:05:52 AM#22

i love the posts from all the silly little ants

lets see - lets put a thimble full of sugar water over here (marketing jibber-jabber about being honest and open)

lets put a thimble full of acid over here (the real truth - we are releasing this game according to schedule so lets chop up the game since we cant get these parts done and poilshed in time)

now lets see where the whittle ants flock

"oh, yes - yummy yummy, how very sweet  - thank you mythic we wuv you too - we didn't really want all those silly cities and those horrible classes that you cut for us anyway"





Novice Member

Joined: 1/01/08
Posts: 9

8/01/08 11:10:35 AM#23

"I am in the beta.  There is a beta."

That's all I can say about that.  What I can talk about is my recent experience with AoC.  Many people played it, and enjoyed it, as long as there was content.  I levelled slow, and took my time, experimenting with classes, so I hit the brick wall late in the game.  At level 63, I went from two or three levels a day to a level every day or two.  I picked up the last of my quests between 60 and 62, and when they were done, that was the end of the road until I hit 70.  What did I do for all of those levels?  Grind.  Hours and hours and hours of grinding.  At 70, I picked up a whole crapload of quests from Kheshatta, did the 5 that weren't bright, blood red, and guess what?  I'm back to grinding again. 

Well, not entirely.  I haven't logged in two weeks.  I can't say why, but let it suffice to say that I'm distracted.  I've found something much, much more enjoyable to do with my time.

What I learned from AoC is what I should've learned from Vanguard.  On paper, something can sound incredibly amazing, but when the developers fail to execute, and instead of cutting the content that isn't any good, they fast track broken and downright missing content into the game.  Developers either have too much pride to say what they have sucks, or they've oversold the hype, and are backed into a corner of failing to deliver, or losing 100 boatloads of cash.

I applaud this decision.  I can only speculate to say if it was the right one or not.  For the last year or so, I've looked forward to a Choppa.  I wanted to chop chop chop with a fun dual-wield melee class.  I'll have to learn to make do.  At first I considered cancelling my Collector's Edition pre-order (that rings in at about 100 bucks) because I felt the game was going to the crapper.  However, after much consideration, I recalled AoC's developers and the PR-approved lies they sold us in the last hours before launch.  Every answer to every question sounded like it had been parsed and double-parsed by PR and marketing.  They were sugary lies.  Instead of finishing the DX10 client, building tons of new quests for high-level content, and fixing classes like the Dark Templars (that have been broken in the exact same way since beta), the guys in Norway have been busy building a broken PvP system that is going to be yet another broken and poorly implemented (rushed) game mechanic (which is already evident on the test live forums).

So, coming from a fanboy that swallowed every bittersweet pill FC sold me, I have made too many excuses for the BS that SmilesCo put out there, with the expectations they have  that as long as you keep lying, and saying the fixes are coming next Wednesday, people will keep playing (and paying).

If cutting some content early keeps players from hitting the upper echelons of WAR only to find that the game falls into a black hole, then they should go for it.  However, Mythic has to deliver on their promise that it makes the game better.  Otherwise, it goes from being a faithful promise that builds trust between developer and player to a little white lie that keeps growing and growing until, ultimately, the game fails. 

Up to this point, we don't have developers that are involved in a discussion with their playerbase.  HappyInc promised to do that, and what they delivered is a poor CSR staff, and tons of feedback from players, but no responses from the devs.  They promised to deliver changes that the playerbase wanted, but instead, it's a one way street with communication.  Players give them TONS of insight and assistance on what needs to be fixed, but never get a reply, a response, or even acknowledgement that they can Eff-off.  I don't feel, with these honest but risky decisions, that Mythic is giving this brick wall approach to the developer/player conversation.  They're being forthright about what's going on during the development process, and I'm sure that it feels a little strange to us all.  We're all so used to being lied and marketed to, that it feels a little odd to get the honest inside scoop.

Let's all have faith, at least until launch.  If it's bad, it won't take long for us to see it.  But, if it's good, we'll know that right away as well.

I wish this wasn't so long, but I had to find a way to say what needed to be said without saying anything more than,

"I'm in the beta.  There is a beta"

Ham sandwiches and roadblocks are a bit better than total destruction.


Novice Member

Joined: 3/31/07
Posts: 560

8/01/08 12:03:19 PM#24

If there was no media about this game and it just came out of no where without the cities and classes, you'd say "Damn! This game is good!".

Instead they let you know whats going on, they told you what they hope to accomplish, then they had some troubles so they cut some things to make the game better overall and you're pissed beyond belief. Game companies need to not be so open with what they are trying to accomplish, all it does it fuel the fire of people who want to hate things.


BTW, great blog post Jon Wood.


Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/15/07
Posts: 560

"As you think, so shall you become"

8/01/08 12:08:20 PM#25
Originally posted by fansede

Lets hope this doesn't become a new marketing tactic for future MMOs. Promise the world. Screenshots, gameplay videos of characters, writeups on home cities.. Then just say we can't make them great so we are giving you this instead.  Cheer me for my sage wisdom for not meeting my goals.. Meanwhile I will devote teams to go to gaming conferences, put out the word to hire GMs instead of more designers/ coders, divert programmers to create strange things like plungers which smash a player who strays off the remote corners of the gaming map and such..

Don't get me wrong, I am going to play the game.  I expect a LOT from it now.  I just can't wrap my puny brain around the fact they had the resources of EA behind them and they could not pull it off. 

I just hope game companies don't overpromise/ underdeliver BUT admit the cuts before launch so lose little PR as a tactic.



   Another person who doesnt actually read anything. I remember correctly that Mythic stated that the cut classes and cities would not be in at LAUNCH, yea you hear me right at LAUNCH. it has been stated that the cut classes and cities would continue to be polished and fleshed out AFTER launch and at the very least would be part of a free content update AFTER launch. So quit your worrying.


Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/15/07
Posts: 560

"As you think, so shall you become"

8/01/08 12:14:30 PM#26
Originally posted by mike470

The problem is how long "post launch" is.  Weeks, months, without 4 cities?  Doesn't sound great to me...

The only difference here is that WAR is saying their game is incomplete, while Funcom kept it a secret.  While I applaud Mythic for their honesty, it is still an incomplete game...I'm not a fanboy, not a troll, but I realize that when a game is missing four cities, that is NOT good. 

What about other things?  What if there is more than just cities missing?  This just leads to more speculation overtime.


   Are you *insert insult here*?

The game is not incomplete, all of the gameplay features are still intact, you can still raid, craft, city siege, PQ, ToK, quest, RVR, shall i continue? The only thing you wont be able to do AT LAUNCH is siege more than 1 city and you get 4 less classes, yet still have 20!!  TWENTY! Also all of the race specific zones are still intact, instead of going to your home city, you go to one city.

   Again they have said that they will continue to polish and work on the cut cities and classes after launch and at the very least will be part of a future content update. its not like your going to be city sieging at launch anyways, jesus.


Novice Member

Joined: 12/06/06
Posts: 288

8/01/08 12:15:25 PM#27

so how is this game any different then any other new MMO? One thing i already dislike is the 80's style comon..there is some very poor graphics in this game, feels like i am playing a game that was already made about 4 years ago or so....nothing new or interesting with War...they should have just teamed up with Blizzard to make a game...


Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/15/07
Posts: 560

"As you think, so shall you become"

8/01/08 12:23:15 PM#28
Originally posted by vardar

so how is this game any different then any other new MMO? One thing i already dislike is the 80's style comon..there is some very poor graphics in this game, feels like i am playing a game that was already made about 4 years ago or so....nothing new or interesting with War...they should have just teamed up with Blizzard to make a game...


      Really now? watch this and look at the monitor behind Josh and then tell me it looks like 80's graphics...yea ok..NOT!



Novice Member

Joined: 11/01/06
Posts: 320

8/01/08 12:25:43 PM#29

Regarding the cutting of certain classes, there are two points I'd like to make.  First, by all accounts they may have cut the classes but they also took the best features from those classes and rolled them into the other classes that will remain.  So in effect, very little has been lost.  Instead, the content that will be in game is going to be that much stronger.  Sounds like a good thing to me.

What's more, AoC did exactly the same thing prior to launch with some of their classes, and didn't get nearly the vilification for it that Mythic is receiving.  Come on.  Double standards, anyone?

My second point is that both AoC and WAR are designed as games that get you VERY quickly to the end-game content.  Unfortunately, AoC chose to release a game where the majority of that content hadn't even been beta tested.  As a result, players were put on rails to reach the end-game, only to discover that there was precious little to do once you get there (because most of it is broken) and that what isn't broken just isn't that interesting or exciting.  WAR seems to have learned from AoC on this count.  They're scaling back on overall quantity of end-game content that will be in at launch in order to ensure that what IS there gets properly tested and is lots of fun.  This is a smart move.

A game can launch with a moderate amount of great content.  If that content is engaging and entertaining in a sustainable manner, then players will get hooked and will continue to play while the devs patch in more content to expand things even farther.  On the other hand, a game can launch with tons of content, but it's mostly broken or just not terribly exciting.  If that happens, game quickly loses subscribers and many of them will never return even after the devs get it all sorted out.  Especially not in today's market with so many strong alternatives getting ready to launch.

Look at Vanguard.  Today it has matured into a very good game.  (This coming from someone who absolutely loathed it at launch and quit within an afternoon.)  Yet the vast majority of players will never check it out because they also hated it at launch or they heard from their friends how much it sucked.  Age of Conan is rapidly heading into that same territory.  In fact, here at its score is in a free fall.  It launched at 8.7, making it the strongest game on the market.  But just two months later it's down to 7.75 -- equal to DDO and a full 40 games lower than Vanguard.

The bottom line is that while Mythic's decision may not have been a popular one, it was certainly the right one for the longevity of the game.  It's a recipe for growth, rather than for shrinkage.  Yes, many players who were looking forward to WAR may no longer get it at launch.  But those same people are far more likley to come check the game out down the road than they would be to come back to it if their chosen class or city had been in at launch, yet sucked.

I think we're also forgetting just how easy it is to be armchair quarterbacks.  Right now, only the devs know the full story regarding every feature in the game.  Only the beta testers have any real experience with what gameplay is actually like.  Until the game launches, the rest of us are only on the outside, looking in.  It's the height of ego to think we know better than those who are actually involved with the game.  If Mythic says that they cut certain classes because the beta testers weren't having fun with them, why would I believe that I personally would have any more fun with the class if it went live?  Wouldn't I be just as likely to dislike the class, and the game by extension?  You betcha!


Novice Member

Joined: 5/12/06
Posts: 104

8/01/08 12:27:49 PM#30

i think it's great that mythic is being up front with their status and doing their best to put quality at the forefront of their endeavor. from what i can tell, an announcement such as this only signifies they want to concentrate their dev effort to releasing working and successful features and will address the features they cannot get to right away in their due course.

my impression is that mythic is delaying the release of material, not cutting it entirely. we should all rejoice in their honesty and attention to delivering a product that is fun and working in its release state. i wouldn't be surprised if this decision was partly due to the unfortunate state of AoC when Funcom's investors forced a release of a half baked product.


Novice Member

Joined: 9/20/05
Posts: 70

8/01/08 12:51:19 PM#31
Originally posted by theJexster

Quality over quantity. I agree with the cuts, and appreciate the honesty with which they were announced to us.


erm, I'll reserve judgement over the cuts until I get into the open beta and can rally behind the Black Banner. However, having recently cancelled my subscription to the other PvP-MMO because I did not feel the developers were giving accurate info about their game or keeping to promises made, I really do appreciate the up-front honesty and so I've felt no urgent desire to cancel my CE order.


Novice Member

Joined: 7/24/08
Posts: 1

8/01/08 1:12:56 PM#32

I really liked the "armchair quarterback" analogy.  That is exactly how I feel about it.  Nobody but the people on the inside can understand exactly what is happening with the game.  It is kind of like a marriage, everyone has an opinion on it, but the only ones with credibility are from the two people actually in it.

These decisions are being made based on data collected from the 1000's of current beta testers.  Yes, you're always going to have folks who love something that 99% of the others don't, but this is a business, and you can't cater to that 1%, you have to focus on the 99%.  Few people were playing the classes they cut, why would they assume that ratio would change after launch?  They cut the ones folks weren't playing or having fun with...period.  Plywood towns look and work great on a movie set, but how many people actually want to live in them?  They took the resources they had and are giving us two towns that are living and thriving, and will do the same to the other 4 plywood ones before letting us enjoy them.

Some folks have also commented on how this never should have happened with EA's muscle backing up Mythic--how they hired the wrong people and focused on the wrong things.  I know I wouldn't want Mythic to overhire just to put out this content, then let those employees go once the game was live and they didn't need them all.  Not to mention creative talent like that just doesn't grow on trees.

So I'll continue to sit on the outside, and reserve my judgement for when I'm on the inside and can actually make an informed decision as to how I feel about what they did.  I do know I appreciate the honesty.



Novice Member

Joined: 8/27/06
Posts: 142

8/01/08 1:29:54 PM#33

The cities being cut didn't bother me, but some of the cut classes did. Personally, only having 3 classes to play as a human, and a tank not being one of them is disappointing. My first choice would be a human tank if it were possible, that is what i play first in most MMOs, probably 9 times out of 10.

I can understand the reason they did it, but with the way they do class/race and only have 3 or 4 choices per race i would think they would worked very hard to keep the classes in and just made them work somehow. Overall it won't really affect the gameplay much, besides not having a tank in the human starter area etc, but customization is usually a big deal to at least a small portion of the player base and having only 3 classes for a race seems a bit sad.

Just going to have to trust their judgement on this, time will tell if it is good or bad. If nothing else, at least they might add classes post-launch after having time to make them right, and not have to delay the game and keep rabid WAR fans waiting any longer than they already have to.


Advanced Member

Joined: 7/23/06
Posts: 483

8/01/08 1:31:16 PM#34

What I find funny is how people are moaning and complaining about 4 classes being cut, completely ignoring that the game will have 20 other to choose from. That's far more than World of Warcraft. And yes, I'm saying this as a guy who really  wanted to play a knight of the burning sun. Who knows? Maybe these classes will be added with mounted combat capabilities. Imagine a line of knights with gleaming lances charging orc choppas on stampeding boars.

As far as the cut cities are concerned, as long as the sieges for Altdorf or the Chaos city are fun, I don't care. I bet by the time we all get bored with beseiging Altdorf for the 20th time, the other cities will be available in a patch. What would really suck is if WAR launched without any siege combat at all, like AOC didn't implement battle keeps at launch.


Novice Member

Joined: 12/15/03
Posts: 61

8/01/08 1:55:31 PM#35
Originally posted by Order66
Originally posted by Arawon

Hope there is an open beta.


There will be

fileplanet though


Yes but people who have been waiting for beta will also get invites from the Mythic's beta center. It's not all bad .


Novice Member

Joined: 5/04/08
Posts: 10

8/01/08 1:56:42 PM#36

As a gamer, my first instinct is to be disappointed.


As a software developer myself, working on a project that has been in development for more than 3 years (without any release yet), I can only praise the people that have the guts to do the right thing: cut scope, rather than sacrificing quality. I've seen the other approach first hand, and it is *not* pretty, nor good, nor logical.




Novice Member

Joined: 8/20/07
Posts: 423

8/01/08 2:02:14 PM#37

No offense to Tom Giblin as the article was well wrote and I am looking forward to additional articles from this author with a bit more content, but why did you write this?

There are already threads about this issue, and you did not really say anything new that was not said in the first page of any of those threads.  Did not give any new information.  In short this article was just another forum post and a dead horse topic with the author saying look at me! 

The read would have been worth it if you had interviewed someone at mythic about their feelings towards the community's response; but as it stands, this read and my reply are just a waste of time.  Maybe you wrote it to cut your teeth?

Again, no offense intended, your writing style was well received by myself, the content was just lacking.


Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/11/06
Posts: 41

8/01/08 2:09:12 PM#38

I agree 100 percent with what Mark did. Its better to come out and say ok this is not going to be in, he even apolgized for it and gave us a reason for WHY these things were yanked from the game. i have played nearly all MMO's out there and lets face it a good chunk of them are only after our money they dont care what kind of product they put out (must I mention Starwars?). At least Mystic is proving their worth to the community. Am I a "fanboy" maybe just know I'm dieing for open beta so I can start playing ordered my Collectors edtion when they first came out. And I'm still proud that I have ordered it and will pay the price for it when it comes out.


Novice Member

Joined: 6/01/08
Posts: 55

8/01/08 2:21:34 PM#39

i applaud this decision.

warms me to see that theres still a company left that reads the signs

dont want another vista or AoCrap, really

ill be monitoring this game carefully until release

mr. hopeful


Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/06
Posts: 304

Born to Lose, Live to Win

8/01/08 2:33:11 PM#40

Much have been already said covering pretty much all the aspects of that decision (cuts, etc...).
I also welcome this decision while I clunch on my CE codes.
See you soon at Aldorf... burning...


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