Originally posted by xenogias

They are hardly copying WAR. If that was the case it would be something more meaningfull than just for loot/gear.

For thoes that still want to play WoW and have fun with it though, it looks good. Its there for more gear/item grind and thats fine, thats what WoW is about and some people enjoy that even if its not my cup of tea. So yea, for the WoW fans looks like you guys are getting some decent new content.

it's just like all the other korean mmo grind fests.

Originally posted by JustBe

WAR didn't invent assault style maps and nore did DAOC.....

Everyone copies ideas off eachother otherwise we wouldn't any of the good games or products we do now. also it's pretty easy to see this as a natural progression from the old battlegrounds.

 

Though I do agree atm this battleground just looks bad.

That may be true, however it doesn't prove others wrong in spirit and I think you and a few others know that deep inside. I think it is pretty damn obvious that this is supposed to compete with WAR. There are a lot of natural routes of progressions from the old battlegrounds, this was just one of them.

IMO it probably will be bad simply because it was created to as an answer to WAR, and essentially they tried to fit all of WAR into a single BG. Itll help them with retention and sales, but it will actually suck in practice.

Originally posted by Gazenthia

Originally posted by JustBe

WAR didn't invent assault style maps and nore did DAOC.....

Everyone copies ideas off eachother otherwise we wouldn't any of the good games or products we do now. also it's pretty easy to see this as a natural progression from the old battlegrounds.

 

Though I do agree atm this battleground just looks bad.

 

That may be true, however it doesn't prove others wrong in spirit and I think you and a few others know that deep inside. I think it is pretty damn obvious that this is supposed to compete with WAR. There are a lot of natural routes of progressions from the old battlegrounds, this was just one of them.

IMO it probably will be bad simply because it was created to as an answer to WAR, and essentially they tried to fit all of WAR into a single BG. Itll help them with retention and sales, but it will actually suck in practice.

Well, there is now also a complete open world PvP zone with Siege combat and the AV BG is completely revamped. That's already 3 major changes to PvP.

Interesting: what will happen in the non instanced Wintergrasp open Pvp zone when 200 vs 200 would go to battle? Because non instanced means everyone can join.

With an average server population of 3000 playing at prime time, this is a real possiblity as everthing is concentrated there.

It will only depend on Blizzard to put up the appropriate rewards and the open world PvP zone will be as highly played as the BG's these days.

A complete set of gear and timed based buffs together with a few titles and I think a lot of hardcore PvP people will happely stay, because 2 new arena's are also included.

Today every 6 months there is a gear update in Wow applied to (new) raid, BG, Arena and crafting. It would be very easy to Blizzard to cover the same update for Wintergrasp and their new siege and air combat systems.

All this will result in a lot of people trying out both games, but most will stick with the characters they created for years and combat they are used to.

Originally posted by hebeventijd

All this will result in a lot of people trying out both games, but most will stick with the characters they created for years and combat they are used to.

I agree with this assessment

Originally posted by Gazenthia

Originally posted by JustBe

WAR didn't invent assault style maps and nore did DAOC.....

Everyone copies ideas off eachother otherwise we wouldn't any of the good games or products we do now. also it's pretty easy to see this as a natural progression from the old battlegrounds.

 

Though I do agree atm this battleground just looks bad.

 

That may be true, however it doesn't prove others wrong in spirit and I think you and a few others know that deep inside. I think it is pretty damn obvious that this is supposed to compete with WAR. There are a lot of natural routes of progressions from the old battlegrounds, this was just one of them.

IMO it probably will be bad simply because it was created to as an answer to WAR, and essentially they tried to fit all of WAR into a single BG. Itll help them with retention and sales, but it will actually suck in practice.

I honestly dont know how people see this as a rip from the WAR concept of tiered combat, the only similarities are the words "Tier" and "Four". The first thing that comes to my mind when I see this battleground is an assault map using walls and gates to pace the combat depending on how well the players are doing so they dont just run all the way to the end to win the game (Which im guessing they saw from AV).

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Originally posted by Tergeron
I honestly dont know how people see this as a rip from the WAR concept of tiered combat, the only similarities are the words "Tier" and "Four".

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I see it as a counter-move by Blizzard because:

1) Timing

2) They've been touting world PvP an awful lot, really pushing LW

3) The nature of the BG in question, as I said there before there are other maps they could have gone with.

4) The "dark" atmosphere of that BG

I don't any of this is a coincidence, and am shocked people don't believe there is a connection.

Originally posted by Gazenthia

 

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Originally posted by Tergeron
I honestly dont know how people see this as a rip from the WAR concept of tiered combat, the only similarities are the words "Tier" and "Four".

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Those aren't the only similarities :)

 

I see it as a counter-move by Blizzard because:

1) Timing

2) They've been touting world PvP an awful lot, really pushing LW

3) The nature of the BG in question, as I said there before there are other maps they could have gone with.

4) The "dark" atmosphere of that BG

I don't any of this is a coincidence, and am shocked people don't believe there is a connection.

1) LK is not a response to WAR, blizzard said it themselves that they wanted to get an expansion out every year if possible. Unless you are suggesting they were somehow threatened about a game that didnt have any media hype at all.

2) People have been ASKING for world pvp ever since BG's became the staple of WOW's pvp content, they wanted a reason to attend world pvp. You can see how blizzard was testing the waters of world PVP in BC with the capture areas in Hellfire, The flag run in Zangarmarsh and the Spirit towers in the Bone Wastes. 

When you look at it this way Lake Wintergrasp is the natural evolution of world pvp blizzard is trying to get, they want to mix PVE and PVP as much as possible to make the benefits worthwhile. Lake Wintersgrasp is what people have been asking for since Vanilla WOW, that doesnt nessasarly mean it was added to compete with WAR.

3) Again, "Tier" and "Four" come to mind, AV is closer to WAR pvp then this new map is. And what are these other maps you speak of?

4) "John look at this game, how are we EVER going to beat THAT! JUST LOOK AT IT, THE SUN ISNT SHINING"       "Add some fog and include dry patches in the grass! AND ADD PALM TREES, THATS DARK"

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Originally posted by Tergeron
1) LK is not a response to WAR

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2) People have been ASKING for world pvp ever since BG's became the staple of WOW's pvp content

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they want to mix PVE and PVP as much as possible to make the benefits worthwhile.

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3) Again, "Tier" and "Four" come to mind, AV is closer to WAR pvp then this new map is. And what are these other maps you speak of?

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Originally posted by Gazenthia

 

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Originally posted by Tergeron
1) LK is not a response to WAR

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LW= Lake Wintergrasp.

 

 

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2) People have been ASKING for world pvp ever since BG's became the staple of WOW's pvp content

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Asking for Blizzard to return it, more like ;) My point was that they are pushing the world PvP aspects an awful lot, suddenly. They didn't push this hard with BC.

 

 

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they want to mix PVE and PVP as much as possible to make the benefits worthwhile.

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Which makes it all the more odd, because this is exactly what they have been doing since, oh, Silithus? Why the big deal now?

 

 

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3) Again, "Tier" and "Four" come to mind, AV is closer to WAR pvp then this new map is. And what are these other maps you speak of?

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The entire system is WAR in a can, sorry. Right down to the keeps. As for other maps, I have made oodles of long winded posts about them in here. Don't even try to suggest that this was the only option they could have went with.

 

 

Obviously you're right so after this post Im just going to stop, but first lets clear up a few things.

The point still stands, LK is not being built to compete with WAR, the same as how LK is not built around Wintersgrasp. This is why timing is irrelevent.

They didnt push BC world pvp because they were busy with Arenas, at the time people were also asking for competitive PVP designed around group combat, thats why you dont see the rest of the zones having those pvp features I mentioned.

It isnt a big deal, they are telling us what the incentives are for attending World PVP combat, which is the main reason world pvp has been so lack luster, a severe lack of significant reward, making sure the rewards are varied helps get more people into the combat so it isnt a wasteland like silithus turned into. What exactly are the benefits of wintergrasp combat then?

War in a can, right down to its keep*.  WAR is a glorified AV, WAR has glorified Hellfire pvp battlegrounds, WAR has glorified Spirit Towers. The BG has similarities to what WAR has, ITS BEEN RIPPED. Also I'd like to see some of these ideas blizzard came up with as options to pick for battlegrounds since you didnt bother to throw any links my way.

Here is a BIG difference between world PvP siege warfare in WotLK and WAR:

Lake Winter = FULL end game open world PvP (not instanced).

Even the end game capitol Sieges will be instanced in WAR.

For a game that is called the official heir of DAoC this must hurt really hard for the DAoC fans to swallow.

And ... instances in WAR are pure copies of the Battlegrounds in Wow (most are only played with 12vs12).

So everybody lends game ideas, but I don't mind.

As long as gaming fun can be kept up, np.

Let's not argue that much. WoW is a great game. However, as it looks right now WAR will be a better option for fantasy MMO PvPers while WoW will continue to be the king when it comes to PvE.

WAR might of course crash and burn and all that but as a beta tester I believe you will be pleasantly surprised at launch by what you see and feel.

And as information to the poster above: 90+% of the PvP in WoW is instanced. 90+% of the PvP in WAR is open world whatever way you try to skin the cat. WoW is designed with PvE in mind. WAR is designed with PvP in mind.

Originally posted by Yaros

 

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Originally posted by coffee
There are 4 tiers to the map (ie capture T1 before you can move onto T2).

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Lol, they are soooo copied WAR...

laughable~ this type of game was introduced as early as Half-Life (Team Fortress Classic) map where the teams had to move up tiers of areas to win.  It probably was somewhere else before that too~  The "copied" line is "soooooo" ignorant.

I'm tired of reading this debate.  I'm gonna shoot you guys the bottom line, and I'll keep it simple.  I assume you are all both old enough, and smart enough, to follow me on this without needing much detail.

Blizzard is a business.  Mythic is a business.  Blizzard had a service which was fairly flawless, but had some gaps in what the consumer wants.  Mythic is planning to offer a service which caters to those gaps.  There is no question here, NO QUESTION, that Blizzard is trying to fill those gaps in response.  Especially when doing so fits with their own game direction perfectly. 

Its not like trying to add tons of sandbox elements, they won't be trying that anytime soon.   Its beyond obvious that Blizzard realizes the chance WAR stands at removing even a slight number of their players.  Blizzard, as a very successful company, did not reach its heights by disregarding even such a small loss.  Best thing is, it requires far less work for THEM to add content which would appeal to that crowd...all the while maintaining the advantage of these players already having settled in to their game.

This stuff IS ripped from WAR.  Many of the core ideals were long since envisioned, but the actual product has been added to in an effort to compensate for their content gaps.  There is nothing wrong with this...its the equivalent of Wal-mart adding a music department to their stores in areas that have a lot of interest in that area.  Sure, Wal-Mart has always SOLD some kind of instrument...but adding a whole department would be an alteration to compensate for even a small loss in business, a choice which is always indicative of a good company trying to do its best for its consumers.

Originally posted by Sikhander

Let's not argue that much. WoW is a great game. However, as it looks right now WAR will be a better option for fantasy MMO PvPers while WoW will continue to be the king when it comes to PvE. 

Here's the thing though.  Most people aren't looking for a game that does 1 thing better than everyone else.  Most people are looking for a game that does the majority of things better than anyone else.  Sure, WoW will lose some folks to War, just like it lost some folks to Conan.  But unless War can come close to matching WoW from the PvE side, the PvP side alone won't be enough to sway most people away from WoW.  As long as WoW is still tops in PvE and close to War on the PvP front, they'll still maintain their lead in the MMO genre and they'll even get a few of those folks who switched to War back, just like they did with Conan.

Just my opinion.  I could be wrong.

Originally posted by Pappy13

Here's the thing though.  Most people aren't looking for a game that does 1 thing better than everyone else.  Most people are looking for a game that does the majority of things better than anyone else.  Sure, WoW will lose some folks to War, just like it lost some folks to Conan.  But unless War can come close to matching WoW from the PvE side, the PvP side alone won't be enough to sway most people away from WoW.  As long as WoW is still tops in PvE and close to War on the PvP front, they'll still maintain their lead in the MMO genre and they'll even get a few of those folks who switched to War back, just like they did with Conan.

Just my opinion.  I could be wrong.

I think this is very hard to predict. 2 years ago I would have assumed what you write above since I was mostly a PvEer (raided in WoW 4 nights a week). When I looked around on my server though the PvE people (as in - people who are really there for the PvE) was a pretty small crowd. Most people were there because the game was fun, to socialize with friends and they were doing casual stuff (a 5-man here and there and some BGs)

Now - WAR will clearly have against itself that most people are playing WoW so the 'socialize' part in the beginning will be weak unless your friends move as well. What speaks against WoW is that it is casual friendly but as a casual you are not getting the new juice content. This is where WAR shines in its design (you can just log in and participate in the same PvP that the hard-core guys are doing).

How will this play out? No clue :) I am pretty certain that WAR will do just fine though regardless how WoW is effected (if at all).

Edit: And in addition I do believe that there is a reason behind all the WoW adds, 'recruit a friend' drives, beta invitations to ex-WoWers etc - WoW has just started to feel coming to age. That does not mean death and destruction - just coming to age, a slight decline in the NA and the EU.

Originally posted by Sikhander

Originally posted by Pappy13

Here's the thing though.  Most people aren't looking for a game that does 1 thing better than everyone else.  Most people are looking for a game that does the majority of things better than anyone else.  Sure, WoW will lose some folks to War, just like it lost some folks to Conan.  But unless War can come close to matching WoW from the PvE side, the PvP side alone won't be enough to sway most people away from WoW.  As long as WoW is still tops in PvE and close to War on the PvP front, they'll still maintain their lead in the MMO genre and they'll even get a few of those folks who switched to War back, just like they did with Conan.

Just my opinion.  I could be wrong.

 

I think this is very hard to predict. 2 years ago I would have assumed what you write above since I was mostly a PvEer (raided in WoW 4 nights a week). When I looked around on my server though the PvE people (as in - people who are really there for the PvE) was a pretty small crowd. Most people were there because the game was fun, to socialize with friends and they were doing casual stuff (a 5-man here and there and some BGs)

Now - WAR will clearly have against itself that most people are playing WoW so the 'socialize' part in the beginning will be weak unless your friends move as well. What speaks against WoW is that it is casual friendly but as a casual you are not getting the new juice content. This is where WAR shines in its design (you can just log in and participate in the same PvP that the hard-core guys are doing).

How will this play out? No clue :) I am pretty certain that WAR will do just fine though regardless how WoW is effected (if at all).

I think it's closer to a 1/3 1/3 1/3 split.  About 1/3 are hard core PvE raider types, they grind thru the PvE content.  About 1/3 are hard core PvP types grinding away to get the next tier gear so they can pwn even more in BG's or arenas and about another 1/3 are not hard core anything, they are more all around types (some call them casual, but I think that's a bit of bad term because some of these people play just as much as the hard core players, they just have a different view of the game, but that's an issue for another thread).  They go where their fancy strikes on any particular day.  They may raid once or twice a week, but they also find time to do some BG's and they also spend a little time leveling up an alt or working on a profession or doing dailies to acquire enough gold to buy an epic flying mount or any one of a billion other things you can do in the game.

War may corner the market on the 1/3 hard core PvP types, but I kinda doubt they are going to do the same with the other 2/3.  And even the 1/3 hard core PvP types may not necessarily be an easy thing to accomplish given what WoW has planned in the expansion.  I'm interested to see how it all works out.

A lot of Warhammer fans following World of Warcraft topics for people who aren't going to play Warcraft.

Also, the Non-Disclosure Agreement shield is still up. Why must a company hide behind an NDA? Lich King doesn't...

But that aside, Warhammer has adopted much of the game play feel that Blizzard developed.  There is a reason you hear beta testers calling Warhammer a WoW clone, and its not because Blizzard made their dwarves look like the ones in the Warhammer universe.

The thing is, if your going to compete with a company at its own game, you have to do it better then them.

Blizzard could make a Warhammer a thousand times better then Mythic. And they will make a better PvP game despite what fans believe.

But WoW is getting old, people are getting bored, and many will flock to warhammer like many flocked to AoC. Not because Age of Conan is better (see any age of conan forums), but because it was new and fresh.

I am a fan of WoW, and i do play it. But i've also been playing Mythic games since DFC. I was there for the release of Spellbinder: The Nexus Conflict. I know what Mythic is capable of. I have paid them a monthly subscription longer then DAoC has been on the market, and that was before DAoC was released.

The facts are there. I believe Mythic side stepped what made their RPGs so great, and that was a Third Realm. Its the only reason i'm not a Warhammer fanboi tearing up the WoW forums.

Darkness Falls: The Crusade had three realms. Spellbinder had three sides. Dark Age of Camelot has three realms. Warhammer has two sides.

All the other Mythic RvR titles had open, world combat as there only option. Until the invent of the Battlegrounds for DAoC which then became the more popular option for casuals and people playing in the battlegrounds exclusively became the majority.

Anyone in beta will tell you Warhammers main focus during development was and IS the Battlegrounds. They have learned that people like this quicker, fairer form of pvp. Open world keep combat was an after thought in Warhammer. The Beta forums were explosive when it was rumored that there would be no keep type open world warfare in Warhammer.

The way i see it, Mythic learned a lot of what people like in DAoC. They learned the Battlegrounds were where it was at. And they focused on making Warhammer excel in this respect.

Just wait till the NDA drops. Then we'll all be able to talk openly about the game play differences of World of Warcraft and Warhammer.

For the record: I am baffled by all the WAR is a WoW clone talk. It reminds me of all the WoW is an EQ clone at WoW release...and who even thinks that today? These games are clones of each other to the same extent that Mercedes, Porsche and Ferrari are clones of each other. They are cars but there are differences that are major enough for people to love one and hate the other.

All this clone talk is intellectually degrading. Be more specific instead of saying that the earth is a clone to the moon since they are two round balls floating in space. It is the specifics that will make people love and hate.

The remarkable thing about WoW is, what i think, the cartoonish graphics.. But if you look at the screenshots. its getting abit more realistic to me. which i find sad.