General Discussion

Originally posted by neonwire

Originally posted by zenaphex

I'm with you on this, leshtricity. Immersion, to me, is the ability to equalize every aspect of an MMO to it's highest standard. I use the term immersion to define a "complete MMO" from my perspective. Every MMO I have played has yet to do such a thing for me. They just feel too much like a stats and grind approach or missing some key aspects.

I recently did a gamers test to see what kind of gamer I was and came out to be a 85% explorer type . That was my highest rated type and fighter being the lowest. That doesn't necessarily mean I like walking distant lands trying to avoid high level mobs. In fact, just to make an example, making long runs in WoW was such a bore. The experience for me is what I experience on the way to my destination. Whether it be out-of-this-world uncharted lands, events taking place, ambiance/mood transitions, environmental changes, weather effects, etc.

Another aspect I look for in an MMO, which I believe goes with immersion, is how dynamic an MMO is from the character to the world or space it exists within. This aspect has had a interesting effect in luring me back in to see what or who has changed today. This brings a unique level of connection to the world and also records itself into the history that evolves with the game. When you actually feel like you have done something and it shows not only from your character but within the world and history itself, it makes for a great experience and accomplishment.

 

I like what your saying there Zenaphex and I totally agree with it. Apart from EVE, I dont think there is any mmo in existence right now that allows you to actually do anything that shapes the gameworld or affect it in any noticeable way. The keyword there is "dynamic" and its just not something that really makes much of an appearance in mmos. The gameworld stays the same year after year unless the devs directly change it themselves. The players dont really have any impact on it at all - they get to enjoy the linear theme-park rides it provides but thats about all. If your lucky you might get to buy a house, change a city-wide buff or have some kind of impact on the economy but the freedom generally ends there.

Immersion doesnt require you to buy expensive equipment. You dont need a super powerful computer or even astounding graphics and sound.......although they certainly do help a lot. Leshtricity used Vanguard as an example for exploring a great looking world. Although its true that exploring can be immersive to a degree it kind of ends at the point when you meet the static, unthinking creatures that inhabit it. They just wander aimlessly about or do nothing at all, their only purpose being to get slaughtered by the players. All mmos just seem to be the same thing - a static world populated by mindless graphical representations of creatures that dont actually act anything like the creatures they are meant to be. Basicly all creatures in mmos are just the same thing but dressed up in different graphical suits. It doesnt matter if its an orc, a bear, a badger, a dragon, a skeleton or whatever......they all do the same thing. They attack you when you go near them and you have to kill them......and then they come back a few minutes later.

If extra options were put into mmos then it would be great. It wouldnt even be all that difficult either. For example if you were a ranger you might try and protect the wildlife from other less considerate players. Certain creatures might look favourably on you for your actions. Settlements of orcs that are hostile to one player might welcome and aid another. This kind of thing would make mmos so much more interesting by giving consequences to your actions. The brainless twit with no imagination who just goes out killing everything he sees to go up levels would become hated by everyone and everything and would have a hard time going anywhere or doing anything.

There also doesnt need to be some stupid linear story for these games either. A storyline is set in stone and will never change so its only really suited to single player or co-operative games. In an mmo the story should be what the players do and how the world changes according to their actions. I like what Darkfall promises actually as it seems so much more intelligent and realistic than everything else but whether it ever actually comes into existence is another matter.

I agree, restrictions to dynamics is a killer of immersion. Sideplots add a ton of gameplay to any virtual universe. For example, WoW offers a reputation system for faction building. Sure, player x can choose to go to zone y and get the highest exp in the game, but do they want to lose their faction. Let people make decisions and they will feel more immersed and less like a static script in the game.

Originally posted by MarL

I TOTALLY DISAGREE!

Ok now thats out of the way, the problem isnt immersion its gameplay.

My first mmo was 10six and its still the best game ever (to me). It had loading screens everywhere, basically you had a plot of land (out of a million plots) and you could gain more by teleporting(loading) to a different plot and taking it from that PERSON. It was one world but you had to load to go anywhere. There was no story, there were no quests, it was all about gameplay. ( and winning)

Now all them loading screens made it possible to have instant action and only one server.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but I get the feeling that you associate immersion with visuals. If that is the case then I agree with you. Eye candy is stock in mmorpgs. When I choose a mmorpg it isn't based on the elements that are available in every game. I want to be a part of an environment that extends the base features available. Gameplay is all about strategy and continuity. What is the sequence of events which come to pass by declaring war against a given faction or party. Without continuity a game can seem clunky and without consequence. I want to feel immersed in a responsive environment where my friends and my enemies are able to respond accordingly. The trophy for victory is measured by the obstacles overcome and the challenges turned.

Originally posted by GamerSteve

To simply put it, technology has been developing slow, and because we as humans believe that technology will always improve, we are always expecting more from the future. In this case, we are expecting two things from future games. Uniqueness and Creativity. Because our minds has fixed itself upon the games we have now, our brain can remember movements, pictures, feels, and intensity of games. When we move on a new game, it is that special 'unique' feeling to the game that allows fun for a week, than after that it just seems like crap. To me, this is saying that the human brain is far more complex than words can describe, and that we should learn to adapt to different styles of gameplay so that we may increase our interest in a variety of games, allowing ourselves to pick from a huge vault if you would like to put it that way. After doing that, our minds will put together the pieces and apply the most appealing gameplay to you. In this way, you will know which type of game you enjoy playing most, and you will start to adapt to only that style of play. Once this happens, you will be able to enjoy that specific type of game play a lot more than you have, which will lead to try other games of that same style so that you may make comparisons and continue on. What I'm trying to get across, is that we are expecting too much and should expect less. If someone would like to put my words in better terms, please do so.

I am going to put in my own words.

No one game can please everyone. By pleasing one person, it aggravates another. The worst games are ones which try to please everyone and make the game far too simplified and repetitive. I don't know about you, but I don't want to play a game that a 7 year old can master(not that such a game doesn't have merits).  I expect for a gaming service provider to create a game with a planned theme and genre and to build a flawless interface for that specialized theme. Have I found a flawless game. Not yet. Will I ever? Probably not, but I do think that I will find a game which follows through on its promises.

Originally posted by leshtricity

Out of the many factors that contribute to the relative success and failure of massively multiplayer online games, few are, in my opinion, more critical than the level of immersion achieved. When did you play your first MMO? 1999? 2000? Later? Whenever that happened to be, I feel relatively safe saying that was probably your most 'magical' and immersive MMO, if not video game totally. Why is this? And why have developers failed time and again in recapturing that feeling?

Are graphics part of that? Most certainly. As the standard for graphics and aesthetics in the interactive entertainment industry reach previously unforeseen levels, so too do the expectations of consumers increase. But any graphical leaps are nullified if they are not applied to the game in a manner which produces immersion. While some of the ideas and examples I present here may seem out-of-reach or too far-fetched, I ask that you consider the rapid pace at which games are evolving. In two decades, graphics technology went from simple vector-based constructs to near photorealism.

For example, one of the most disappointing examples of failed immersion comes from loading screens, particularly in scenarios of travel. When I owned my first spaceship in Star Wars Galaxies, I fully expected (perhaps unrealistically) to have to pilot my ship through the atmosphere into space. Instead, I clicked a button and appeared there after a loading screen. Even though I expected that, I would've still been completely blown away by that level of immersion.

Alternatively, allow me to give you an example of great immersion. The most recent example is also one of the most impressive. While Vanguard might be considered a 'flop', it did a few select things right. I contend that there is not a single MMO on the market today that can compete with Vanguard's environments. Few would argue that the game doesn't have impressive graphics, especially in regard to the landscapes. The first time I walked down a road on a mountain, looked over the side and saw the entire landscape for miles, I was floored. The architecture of cities in general was also very impressive.

Another important factor for immersion is audio. Often overlooked, in my opinion, I believe strong production values in auditory development is crucial. While I don't  think that background music, or a soundtrack, is required, it can add a lot to a game. What's more important are the sound effects. The violent clashing of swords, the mystical buzzing of a cast spell, the foreboding 'click' of an empty ammunition clip, or the thunderous engines of a starship. Also oft overlooked are ambient sounds. You would be surprised how much you miss in day to day living. Another issue many players, myself included, have with auditory values of MMO's is the level of repetitiveness. This is a reason I don't feel confident an MMO should have a soundtrack, unless variation can be guaranteed. Variation should, optimally, also be present in the sound effects. When you fire a gun or swing a weapon, it doesn't always sound the same. I believe and hope that in the coming years developers will step-up production values of sound.

The last point is something that has been the subject of much debate between non-casual gamers. The rules system. I don't have a point-of-view on this particular subject simply because I have seen the benefit of a variety of rules systems. The main contest is found in realism versus convenience. For example, I thoroughly enjoyed my time with World of Warcraft, which we can safely assume caters to the convenience aspect; but I also had a great experience with EVE Online, which I contend is the most realistic MMO available (relative realism; considering the setting). Neither of those games, though, offer strong immersion. Blizzard's art-style, while attractive, doesn't lend itself well to immersion; while CCP has a realistic and architecturally impressive style, immersion is killed by limiting a player to the confines of a ship.

In closing, I believe that the future of MMO's and gaming in general is bright, but that we must sometimes voice our ideas constructively to spur the industry in the right direction. This, I hope, has been one such constructive observation.

First, overall, excellent essay (I had to skim over some parts).

1. Audio is definitely overlooked and underestimated.
2. Visuals are more than graphics.
3. Graphics are way, and I mean way, overrated.  Good graphics cannot make a bad game good. 

Second, I think there are additional features to immersion:

1. Customization:  different combination of classes, skills, and abilities.  I am not referring to specialization that pigeonholes my character.  Caster:  Mage or Wizard, imho, is specialization enough or Healer:  Priest, Shaman, or Druid is specialization enough.  I am referring to customizable features and options for the Shaman itself.  Moreoever, appearance is very underrated in MMORPGs.  I should look differently from everyone through my size, color and design of clothing, etc. 
2. Varied options to develop (such as EQ's AA system which allows for customization, character development all in one.  Brilliant system, imho).
3. Activities.  World activities such as fairs, tournaments, and tavern brawls.  Fishing, hunting, building a unique home.  Building a merchant shop in town.  Building a boat or ship.  All very underrated and underestimated.  (Note to developers:  some people play for the social aspect of MMORPGs, which is underrated.  We just want to log in and work on our house for a month or go hang-out in a tavern).
4. Exploration and World Feel.  Dungeons must look and "feel" real.  A dangerous forest must look at feel real.  A city must look and feel real.  Many ways to enhance feel.  The world must feel dangerous, mysterious, and the ability to EXPLORE is so, so, so underrated, underestimated, and missing in MMORPGs.  Enhance feel with audio, visuals, and other features.  A mysterious forest does not feel dangerous if I simply run through it with no potential severe consequences of dieing, losing something, getting mugged by bandits, etc.  Travel does not feel special if nothing happens during my travel.  The world needs to feel very unpredictable. 
5. Impact and Lore.  I need to feel that I can impact the world.  When I complete an epic Quest, it needs to feel a part of the fantasy world.  I need to immerse myself in the game's story, lore, and history during the process.  I need to feel accomplished.  These petty tasks are burning me out, just like raiding ddi. 

MOST IMPORTANTLY OF ALL:  F R E E D O M.

People want to feel free, not forced.  Afterall, this is supposed to be a fantasy world with different rules regarding physics;  different laws governing behavior;  different opportunities to "be" and "become" something bigger and greater.   Like you are the main character in an unfolding story (but your actions determine the direction of the story, not some developer's story).  Gamers should have the power of choice over all their actions.

I could go further, but I think we covered enough ground for now.  Besides, I have my final for my summer class in a few hours.

Originally posted by Violette

Originally posted by gillvane1

Originally posted by leshtricity

For example, one of the most disappointing examples of failed immersion comes from loading screens, particularly in scenarios of travel. When I owned my first spaceship in Star Wars Galaxies, I fully expected (perhaps unrealistically) to have to pilot my ship through the atmosphere into space. Instead, I clicked a button and appeared there after a loading screen. Even though I expected that, I would've still been completely blown away by that level of immersion.

Alternatively, allow me to give you an example of great immersion. The most recent example is also one of the most impressive. While Vanguard might be considered a 'flop', it did a few select things right. I contend that there is not a single MMO on the market today that can compete with Vanguard's environments. Few would argue that the game doesn't have impressive graphics, especially in regard to the landscapes. The first time I walked down a road on a mountain, looked over the side and saw the entire landscape for miles, I was floored. The architecture of cities in general was also very impressive.

 

I would just point out that what gives players a sense of immersion is different for different Players. For example, I don't mind loading screens in the least and they don't break my immersion.

I played the Vanguard beta. I thought the game design was terrible, and just threw the grind right in your face. So, instead of grinding, I walked across the whole landscape at about level 7. That was a challenge, to avoid MObs at that level, and still walk from one side of the world to the other. I didn't find the landscape particularly immersive, but it was nice to look at.

I get a sense of immersion when I"m playing with a group, and we are deep into a dungeon that is very challenging and requires a lot of team work to go any deeper.

Leshtricity, I agree with Gillvane1...

In MUDs there are no graphics and frequently no sound at all. Yet most that play them all agree that text-based multiplayer games provide the best immersion - immersion that puts MMOs to shame. Therefore graphics and sound probably have little to do with it.

In my experience with text-based muds, most people who truly enjoy them like to read books as well. In fact, many people who play muds enjoy to write text for inclusion into muds. In my opinion, the immersion that many text-based mud players seek is an immersion of development rather than an immersion of play; text-based mud players tend to favor authorship.

Originally posted by Briansho

Things that kill immersion.

1. Loading screens

2. General chat

3. NPCs that stand in the same spots and never move.

4. Repetitive quests

I agree. Especially on number 3 in combat-oriented mmorpgs. I think that mobs can see me just as well as I can see them, so when they see me standing 30 yards away buffing and loading my repeating crossbow that is probably a good indication that trouble is brewing. That said, I do actually appreciate the implementation as it is when applied in a setting that is built for grinding solo. If mobs had the immersive type of artificial intelligence then soloing wouldn't be possible; or the exp gained per fight would have to be reduced significantly. Essentially, a handful of gameplay balancing issues come into effect.

Many of these items are intended to be used as conveniences. I think that it is key to implement difficulty levels when considering the immersion available and the consequences which apply for receiving what is asked for.