Hello everyone.  I have been eyeing this game for a bit now and have finally decided that I like the ideas and approach that the developers are taking with this game enough to become more involved on these forums.  It's good to be here!

I am a big fan of a skills based system.  The idea of a character becoming all-around more powerful just by grinding and repeat killing hundreds of mobs to gain a level, which then in turn advances all of his combat/fighting abilities, is long since played out in this genre.  We need a new paradigm, and I think we can find it with this game.

One idea that I would like to throw out is to consider skills that are not related to comabt at all.  You could have skill trees that are based on how quickly/efficiently you can advance other skills once acquired.  If you were to consider the different basic archetypes then you could have a few "learning" skills that would help to advance future skills within that specific tree.  They would take time and effort to obtain, but could increase the players efficiency with moving forward along the skills. 

There has also been talk on these forums about players needing to interact with spies/diplomats/thiefs and anyone else where their story leads them in order to finish a quest.  I think it would be wise to have skills that help in how you can negotiate these quests.  For instance, you could have skills that would allow the player to better find the spies/thiefs, and skills to be a better diplomat to loosen the tongues, and skills that would allow more influence upon the weaker minded to do your bidding. 

These are just a few specific ideas, but the principle is to allow players that want to invest time in their characters for the long term perspective to acquire skills which would modify the way in which they can ontain/perform/complete quests.  You don't only need skills that allow yo uto do slightly more damage with a specific weapon or spell.

Originally posted by Pellagren

Hello everyone.  I have been eyeing this game for a bit now and have finally decided that I like the ideas and approach that the developers are taking with this game enough to become more involved on these forums.  It's good to be here!

I am a big fan of a skills based system.  The idea of a character becoming all-around more powerful just by grinding and repeat killing hundreds of mobs to gain a level, which then in turn advances all of his combat/fighting abilities, is long since played out in this genre.  We need a new paradigm, and I think we can find it with this game.

One idea that I would like to throw out is to consider skills that are not related to comabt at all.  You could have skill trees that are based on how quickly/efficiently you can advance other skills once acquired.  If you were to consider the different basic archetypes then you could have a few "learning" skills that would help to advance future skills within that specific tree.  They would take time and effort to obtain, but could increase the players efficiency with moving forward along the skills. 

There has also been talk on these forums about players needing to interact with spies/diplomats/thiefs and anyone else where their story leads them in order to finish a quest.  I think it would be wise to have skills that help in how you can negotiate these quests.  For instance, you could have skills that would allow the player to better find the spies/thiefs, and skills to be a better diplomat to loosen the tongues, and skills that would allow more influence upon the weaker minded to do your bidding. 

These are just a few specific ideas, but the principle is to allow players that want to invest time in their characters for the long term perspective to acquire skills which would modify the way in which they can ontain/perform/complete quests.  You don't only need skills that allow yo uto do slightly more damage with a specific weapon or spell.

 

The problem with the longevity is a big one if peopel don't progress after they have hit skill caps, (not that i think they have them here). Then the longevity and need for a large world is pointless, whichever way you look at it there will be a grind, if there isn't one then tbh it isn't a MMO.

This game from what i read has an ending to the storyline anyway.

Originally posted by Pellagren

 

One idea that I would like to throw out is to consider skills that are not related to comabt at all.  You could have skill trees that are based on how quickly/efficiently you can advance other skills once acquired.  If you were to consider the different basic archetypes then you could have a few "learning" skills that would help to advance future skills within that specific tree.  They would take time and effort to obtain, but could increase the players efficiency with moving forward along the skills. 

 

I agree 100%.  I love the idea of having different skill aside from combat to train.  Skills such as firemaking, woodcutting, herblore, etc....Skills like those are something I would love to CoS. 

I love how Wurm Online handled skills like that, because it made you pay attention and less-grindy.  The problem with making skills like that is that they can become a grind quickly, so it is important that the skills involve players to pay attention to what they're doing, and to have them do different things for a certain skill.

You will be happy to know that the game not only has non-combat abilities, but actually is about 50% for each.  We're on the third of forth major revamp of the Abilities system (each one refines it more).  Right now we're looking to improve the non-combat Abilities area, so this particular discussion could be useful.

Feel free to wax on about your ideas in this area.  We'll see if there are any we haven't already discussed in our design meetings. 

As for 'caps' on your abilities, there aren't any actual caps, though there are practical caps.  In other words, I can keep studying and practicing an Abilitiy and getting better at it over time, but the more I study and pracitice the slower the gains become.  At some point you have to decide if your time and energy is better spent learning a new Ability rather than improving one that you have already honed to a high level... yet, if you want to keep improving it... feel free. 

Also, there is no actual mechanism keeping anyone from learning any Ability.  However, there are again, practical limitations. To get or improve an Ability by study, you must belong to the correct League.   You must pay an entry fee to get into a League.  You must pay dues while in that League.  Entry fees and dues go up severely for each additional League you belong to at the same time.  Entry fees and dues go up as your character advances. 

I mention all this to note that belonging to all five Leagues and improving Abilities in all five leagues at one time is rather expensive, so expensive that most players will choose one, or at most, two Leagues to belong to at any one time.  Switching back and forth makes you keep paying the entry fees, so again, you are unlikely to do that too often.  In addition there are other incentives to keep you specializing in one League rather than becoming true 'mud'.    Bonus Abilities for example, which we call Uber Abilities, must be earned within a League.  All this is (and more) is to make it so that players don't all end up the same.  Players will create unique and custom clesses, but the system encourages people to have various specializations.  That's about as much of this as I should be talking about at this time.  :)

Originally posted by Jatar

You will be happy to know that the game not only has non-combat abilities, but actually is about 50% for each.  We're on the third of forth major revamp of the Abilities system (each one refines it more).  Right now we're looking to improve the non-combat Abilities area, so this particular discussion could be useful.

Feel free to wax on about your ideas in this area.  We'll see if there are any we haven't already discussed in our design meetings. 

As for 'caps' on your abilities, there aren't any actual caps, though there are practical caps.  In other words, I can keep studying and practicing an Abilitiy and getting better at it over time, but the more I study and pracitice the slower the gains become.  At some point you have to decide if your time and energy is better spent learning a new Ability rather than improving one that you have already honed to a high level... yet, if you want to keep improving it... feel free. 

Also, there is no actual mechanism keeping anyone from learning any Ability.  However, there are again, practical limitations. To get or improve an Ability by study, you must belong to the correct League.   You must pay an entry fee to get into a League.  You must pay dues while in that League.  Entry fees and dues go up severely for each additional League you belong to at the same time.  Entry fees and dues go up as your character advances. 

I mention all this to note that belonging to all five Leagues and improving Abilities in all five leagues at one time is rather expensive, so expensive that most players will choose one, or at most, two Leagues to belong to at any one time.  Switching back and forth makes you keep paying the entry fees, so again, you are unlikely to do that too often.  In addition there are other incentives to keep you specializing in one League rather than becoming true 'mud'.    Bonus Abilities for example, which we call Uber Abilities, must be earned within a League.  All this is (and more) is to make it so that players don't all end up the same.  Players will create unique and custom clesses, but the system encourages people to have various specializations.  That's about as much of this as I should be talking about at this time.  :)

Once a bonus ability has been gained if you swap leagues due to expense will you loose it ?

That is great to hear, Jatar, that you have already planned half of the available skills in non-combat related areas. 

I wonder if you have considered using a system like Eve online whereby you can gain a skill over a set amount of time which is passed in real time, whether or not you are online?  I always thought that was a great idea they implemented.  If it could be mixed with a more quest based approach like you are planning then it could bring out some wonderful strategic options for players to individualize their characters.

Is crafting ability going to be a skill based learning method as well?  I think it would be cool to make a player quest out in the world for the knowledge to make very specific items and to mater them, not to just sit at a crafting station and repeatedly "grinds" out thousands of copies to get the next tier.

Originally posted by Isane

Originally posted by Pellagren

Hello everyone.  I have been eyeing this game for a bit now and have finally decided that I like the ideas and approach that the developers are taking with this game enough to become more involved on these forums.  It's good to be here!

I am a big fan of a skills based system.  The idea of a character becoming all-around more powerful just by grinding and repeat killing hundreds of mobs to gain a level, which then in turn advances all of his combat/fighting abilities, is long since played out in this genre.  We need a new paradigm, and I think we can find it with this game.

One idea that I would like to throw out is to consider skills that are not related to comabt at all.  You could have skill trees that are based on how quickly/efficiently you can advance other skills once acquired.  If you were to consider the different basic archetypes then you could have a few "learning" skills that would help to advance future skills within that specific tree.  They would take time and effort to obtain, but could increase the players efficiency with moving forward along the skills. 

There has also been talk on these forums about players needing to interact with spies/diplomats/thiefs and anyone else where their story leads them in order to finish a quest.  I think it would be wise to have skills that help in how you can negotiate these quests.  For instance, you could have skills that would allow the player to better find the spies/thiefs, and skills to be a better diplomat to loosen the tongues, and skills that would allow more influence upon the weaker minded to do your bidding. 

These are just a few specific ideas, but the principle is to allow players that want to invest time in their characters for the long term perspective to acquire skills which would modify the way in which they can ontain/perform/complete quests.  You don't only need skills that allow yo uto do slightly more damage with a specific weapon or spell.

 

 

The problem with the longevity is a big one if peopel don't progress after they have hit skill caps, (not that i think they have them here). Then the longevity and need for a large world is pointless, whichever way you look at it there will be a grind, if there isn't one then tbh it isn't a MMO.

This game from what i read has an ending to the storyline anyway.

well the solution is simple ..infinite lvleling...let players if they wish to advance in lvlsd as long as they can...

Watch though after for example 100 lvl in order to go 101 huge number xp will be needed and so on...+ that for example the game mechanics are such as that a player lvl 92 could beat aplayer lvl 107 ...meaning with this that  each lvl would provide just  some atributes and skills...that wasy none would be so loonatic to farm lvls..if u need 32 million xp for example to go from lvl 111-->112 lvl   plus that they could imply a death penalty after lvl 100 for example so that technicallly u could have the chance if not dying oiften to lvl above the usual lvl cap of a game...

Mind that most  mmos usually have a target goal for the player so when he reach the lvl cap he has some goals and he wont loose their intrests for the game... In wow for example the target is to reach the highest ranks in arena for pviers adn step through the most dificults raid dungeons  in pve...

I f u could also have the chance to lvl above the cap if u are a skileld player then good for you

Originally posted by Jatar

You will be happy to know that the game not only has non-combat abilities, but actually is about 50% for each.  We're on the third of forth major revamp of the Abilities system (each one refines it more).  Right now we're looking to improve the non-combat Abilities area, so this particular discussion could be useful.

Feel free to wax on about your ideas in this area.  We'll see if there are any we haven't already discussed in our design meetings. 

Woohoo

This is definately something I look forward to learning more about in the futures, as I love the idea of having noncombat abilities.  If I can recommend you anything, it is to play Wurm Online, even for just a couple hours.  That game has the best use of non-combat skills in any MMORPG I have ever seen...it's not that they were done too differently, but each skill could affect the world in a different way.  I'll also throw in my 2 cents.

a)  Not grindish:  It's important to not make the skills repetitive.  One of the things I hated most about RuneScape was how repetitive each skill was.  I.E. for woodcutting, Sit in front of the tree and cut, never anything new happened.  It's worse than grinding.

b)  Quest related:  I believe each ability shoudl somehow affect your quests.  Fir instance, if an army sargeant told you to travel across the hot desert for some reason, then somehow skills should be relative in there.  You would need firemaking skill to have a fire at night, a 'nature' skilll which can help you identify which kind of plants have water in them, etc.  The skills shouldn't be useless, they should have an affect on what you plan to do in the future.

c)   Done outside of quest related activies:  <----says it all.  I believe players should be able to do these skills outside of quests, so they can make a profit on a certain skill.

Well, that's just my  cents, although I'm sure it's everything MMO Magic has already gone over. 

Skills are a very important feature when I look into different games, and  I love the fact taht CoS has them.  The real challenge is making them less-grindish, and I am very curious to see how MMO Magic does this.

Originally posted by tazarconan

Originally posted by Isane

Originally posted by Pellagren

Hello everyone.  I have been eyeing this game for a bit now and have finally decided that I like the ideas and approach that the developers are taking with this game enough to become more involved on these forums.  It's good to be here!

I am a big fan of a skills based system.  The idea of a character becoming all-around more powerful just by grinding and repeat killing hundreds of mobs to gain a level, which then in turn advances all of his combat/fighting abilities, is long since played out in this genre.  We need a new paradigm, and I think we can find it with this game.

One idea that I would like to throw out is to consider skills that are not related to comabt at all.  You could have skill trees that are based on how quickly/efficiently you can advance other skills once acquired.  If you were to consider the different basic archetypes then you could have a few "learning" skills that would help to advance future skills within that specific tree.  They would take time and effort to obtain, but could increase the players efficiency with moving forward along the skills. 

There has also been talk on these forums about players needing to interact with spies/diplomats/thiefs and anyone else where their story leads them in order to finish a quest.  I think it would be wise to have skills that help in how you can negotiate these quests.  For instance, you could have skills that would allow the player to better find the spies/thiefs, and skills to be a better diplomat to loosen the tongues, and skills that would allow more influence upon the weaker minded to do your bidding. 

These are just a few specific ideas, but the principle is to allow players that want to invest time in their characters for the long term perspective to acquire skills which would modify the way in which they can ontain/perform/complete quests.  You don't only need skills that allow yo uto do slightly more damage with a specific weapon or spell.

 

 

The problem with the longevity is a big one if peopel don't progress after they have hit skill caps, (not that i think they have them here). Then the longevity and need for a large world is pointless, whichever way you look at it there will be a grind, if there isn't one then tbh it isn't a MMO.

This game from what i read has an ending to the storyline anyway.

 

well the solution is simple ..infinite lvleling...let players if they wish to advance in lvlsd as long as they can...

Watch though after for example 100 lvl in order to go 101 huge number xp will be needed and so on...+ that for example the game mechanics are such as that a player lvl 92 could beat aplayer lvl 107 ...meaning with this that  each lvl would provide just  some atributes and skills...that wasy none would be so loonatic to farm lvls..if u need 32 million xp for example to go from lvl 111-->112 lvl   plus that they could imply a death penalty after lvl 100 for example so that technicallly u could have the chance if not dying oiften to lvl above the usual lvl cap of a game...

Mind that most  mmos usually have a target goal for the player so when he reach the lvl cap he has some goals and he wont loose their intrests for the game... In wow for example the target is to reach the highest ranks in arena for pviers adn step through the most dificults raid dungeons  in pve...

I f u could also have the chance to lvl above the cap if u are a skileld player then good for you

 

hehe yes exponential mayhem
 

Just some more thoughts on skills of all sorts.  I think the most important aspect, in any game, but especially in a game that is going to be skills based, is to create a huge tome of possible skills to pursue.

Make skills that allow you to wear a basic type of armor, like leather.  Then, add secondary specialization skills which require the base pre-requisite.  In this way you have to continuously make critical decisions about how you want to proceed.  Spend many hours gaining marginal benefits of secondary leather armor skills, or pursue new skills. 

In a similar way, make several types of mounts, like camels, horses, mules, elephants, flying variety, whatever...but make each one require a skill pre-requisite and make available additional secondary skils, such as mount stability, to help you stay on your horse when hit by mobs, or speed, to coax extra speed out of your mount. 

If you magnify this sort of thinking across all combat and non-combat related skill trees you create a game where you are not wrecklessly grinding kills to get levels, but rather constantly re-evaluating where you are and where you want to be on the skills tree.  There will always be something you can do to improve and change your character to your own likes.

Originally posted by Pellagren

Just some more thoughts on skills of all sorts.  I think the most important aspect, in any game, but especially in a game that is going to be skills based, is to create a huge tome of possible skills to pursue.

Make skills that allow you to wear a basic type of armor, like leather.  Then, add secondary specialization skills which require the base pre-requisite.  In this way you have to continuously make critical decisions about how you want to proceed.  Spend many hours gaining marginal benefits of secondary leather armor skills, or pursue new skills. 

In a similar way, make several types of mounts, like camels, horses, mules, elephants, flying variety, whatever...but make each one require a skill pre-requisite and make available additional secondary skils, such as mount stability, to help you stay on your horse when hit by mobs, or speed, to coax extra speed out of your mount. 

If you magnify this sort of thinking across all combat and non-combat related skill trees you create a game where you are not wrecklessly grinding kills to get levels, but rather constantly re-evaluating where you are and where you want to be on the skills tree.  There will always be something you can do to improve and change your character to your own likes.

This is very much the system that Citadel of Sorcery already has in the design.   Lots of Abilities to choose from, no actual limits on what you want to learn, many ways to improve an Ability, including additional echelons, study and practice and Uber Ability sets.  You will find that there are many ways to improve your character, with constant decisions on where to spend your time and effort. 

In fact, there is so much you can do in this system that we had to include a University in the game to help more caual players who don't want to work so hard at figuring out their plan, yet even there they will need to make decisions.  I don't want to get into all the details of this character development system right now, but there are a few details out in other posts on these forums or on the CoS web site (Q&A).  But we've also kept some back as well.

You'll find this theme constantly in our design, we don't want to 'dumb down' the game so that everyone has to play at the lowest level of involvement, yet we also try to make ways for more casual players to enjoy the game as well.   Hopefully the game will work for many levels of players.

Some more ideas that have been percolating through the day...

climbing skills- those for basic pre-req ability, then have secondary for using ropes and those for free climbing.  I love the idea of having to risk climbing a tough castle wall on an unguarded post.  If you make it all the way up you gain advantage, but if your level is too low, you have the chance of falling. 

Social type skills- skills for deception, story-telling, those to increase your ability to persuade others to your will, successfully tell lies, something along those lines...

i have a bunch of combat skills like

hows that for a medieval shrapnel.  i have well over 30 skills if you want well intill then heres another

Nuke - DESTORYS EVERYTHINGGGGGG~!!!!! MAUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

im not sure what the nuke thing was about but i shall take it as a compliment. ohh and here is another spell i thought of.

i have alot more and am willing to share my ever growing list of spells with anyone who wants them and they are for grabs

I have come up with a non-combat ability that has not been used in anygame to date!

It's called transconstruction!  What is means is you contruct a transportation vehicle like at first you make carts but as your level advances you get to make cooler vehicles like chariots and thigns.  Of course their is another skill needed!  Taming: It involves using items to train your mounts to pull and learn where you want to go.  This means that the higher the tamer level the faster and more accurately the mount will work with the vehicles.

Non-Combat Skills I'd like to see actually used in a game:

Bribery - Pay off NPCs to further quests, or to gain benefits in the Citadel

Interrogation - Obtain information from less than willing NPCs

Torture - Break down captured NPCs to improve interrogation (requires the ability to take prisoners)

Blackmail - Use information against NPCs to gain their assistance

Disguise - Get into places you don't belong

Pickpocket - Get quest items or cash from NPCs

Gambling - Increase odds in games of chance

Sleight of Hand - Cheat at games of chance and hope you don't get caught

Originally posted by skipeth

Non-Combat Skills I'd like to see actually used in a game:

We are considering some of these already in one form or another:

Bribery - Pay off NPCs to further quests, or to gain benefits in the Citadel

Yes.

Interrogation - Obtain information from less than willing NPCs

Yes.

Torture - Break down captured NPCs to improve interrogation (requires the ability to take prisoners)

Maybe

Blackmail - Use information against NPCs to gain their assistance

Yes

Disguise - Get into places you don't belong

Yes

Pickpocket - Get quest items or cash from NPCs

Not currently.

Gambling - Increase odds in games of chance

No (because we have real gambling against other players, so it's your actual skill and luck, not an Ability that will help you here).

Sleight of Hand - Cheat at games of chance and hope you don't get caught

No (same reason as above).

Jatar

Wow!  4 yes and a maybe!!  I'm excited about this game!   This is certainly a huge break from other MMOs where non-combat skills = craft skills | useless skills.

Real Gambling with others - sweet!!

Pickpocketing - Not Currently.  Well, it's better than no.  I hope it can be a future consideration as a non-combat solution to problems like: collect 10 rat tails, or snag the key from the jailer to bust someone out of prison without having to fight .

Hey, these smileys are kinda fun.

so uhh Jatar dp you think that you could use some of my ideas you dont have to worry about me sueing you or anything i just come up with skills that i would like to see in games on my free time if not then i'll try to find a corner and do this by myself or this to my imaginary friend

well here's another

Name: Blow
Description: the caster can with this spell cause a great gust to slow enemys or speed himself or perhaps add great length to his jumps
Counter: any shield spell