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7/08/08 11:31:29 AM#41
Originally posted by TdogSkal
Friction's post was at the lowest, an attempt at humor, he never insulted anyone but he was addressing a concern about the people making this game, which I am a little concerned as well after going through this thread. Yes dev's/mods are going to be held at a higher standard, they are not suppose to incite a thread like this. Like I said it makes the company and himself look bad. If someone wrote a letter to my boss saying I had vented on someone like that, id get fired, and im held at much lower standards considering I work at a kiosk. If someone wrote a letter saying I wasn't a "good" cashier or w/e my boss would probably observe me for a day and let me know if im doing somthing wrong or somthing, not that I think thats relavent. ;p How can you even sit there and say his post was an attempt at humor. He was trying to state that the company behind CoS was a screensaver company... go read his first post again. It clear states that in the post. Developer did not incite this thread, friction2u post about the company behind CoS was nothing more then a screensaver company trying to develop a MMO. Which was proven wrong, clearly. I think personally it makes the Developer look better by not pussy footing his answer, I respect people that speak their mind and not try to keep everyone happy. I rather have a developer rip the shit out of some random guy trying to spread lies about his company then a developer that acts all nice and buddy like to the same guy. Maybe its just me but I am so sick of this political correctness shit that it is refreshing to see someone not hold back anything and try to please the world.
Because he posted a screenshot of some tiny lil no where offices, I thought it was pretty funny :) And they did in fact make screensavers prior to starting on CoS, so in a way what he said was true! I tried to google mmo magic to see how much expirence these guy's have had and so far all we know is some of them have done screensavers. Nothing was proven false about that, it was added on that they are working toghether with mmo magic or w/e. Im sorry, but that post just made him look like a 10 year old, adults, don't act like that my friend, especially not when your representing alot of other people. He doesnt have to be nice about it, heck he doesn't have to respond at all, could've brushed the whole thing off and no one would mind. Sorry but thats how it works, this game isn't going to sale if the dev's are gonna act like that, it just pushes customers away.
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mike470
 General Correspondent
Joined: 2/11/08
"We cannot change the cards we are dealt, just how we play the hand" - Randy Pausch |
7/08/08 12:01:59 PM#42
Wow...I'm shoced so many people are still crying about this. This will be the last post I make in this thread since you all seem rather stubborn on your opinion. None of you can actually speak from Jatar's posistion (except for Tdog). You do NOT now how much Friction's words may offend a developer...You say you have never seen a developer act the way Jatar did...that's utter bullcrap. If you never have seen a developer/site admin act that way, then you need to go refresh some memory. This happens. Wether you want to believe it or not, there were some shots at the game and the devs in general in that post. "So the people making CoS are probably a very small team with limited game/3d modelling experience - hence the crappy screenshots and the need for a publisher to inject money into the project so they can hire talented people and get the ball rolling." "The problem I'm seeing is that no publisher or investor is going to stump up cash to a screensaver company on the strength of those screenshots." "What motivated me was the appalling graphics and the rough-looking official site. I just had to know who was behind this. Scammers? College kids? Leprechauns?"
"CoS devs - you have to improve what your game looks like (concept art, cgi trailer, renders, screenshots) to have any chance of success. Seriously." Friction's post CLEARLY showed a lac of respect in his original post. I must say, you people really need to learn how to read if you seriusly thought Jatar's post was just out of the blue. He should show no more respect just because he is a developer; that is utter crap. Friction was clearly rude about it, so Jatar will be as well.
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7/08/08 12:18:35 PM#43
Originally posted by mike470
You seem rather stubborn about yours as well my friend :) The dev has no reason to take offense, the OP was not directed at him, it never even called him out. Have you read some of the threads in other games people make? This is absolutely nothing compared to what AoC has been getting, and the following responses were over reacted. I can recall one dev/mod who went over the line, i believe during when I played RYL2, needless to say his post was locked and deleted, and a week or so later he was fired I believe. Beyond that, no I can say for myself I have not seen a dev flip out for any reason. =/ Yes shots were made at the game not the dev's, other than his suggestion that they need to step it up. Its called criticism I believe. :) The game is still in early development, we don't know much about it, what I gather from the OP is he is not impressed with the few screenshots they've release with all this big talk, which is understandable and I agree on that. If jater wants to be rude, i cant stop him, but it doesnt look good at all, and we're trying to tell you that if you want this game to look good you cant have dev's flippin out like that. It was uncalled for, he needs to practice some tolerance and restraint or somthing. |
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7/08/08 12:50:53 PM#44
Originally posted by Wolfenpride
You seem rather stubborn about yours as well my friend :) The dev has no reason to take offense, the OP was not directed at him, it never even called him out. Have you read some of the threads in other games people make? This is absolutely nothing compared to what AoC has been getting, and the following responses were over reacted. I can recall one dev/mod who went over the line, i believe during when I played RYL2, needless to say his post was locked and deleted, and a week or so later he was fired I believe. Beyond that, no I can say for myself I have not seen a dev flip out for any reason. =/ Yes shots were made at the game not the dev's, other than his suggestion that they need to step it up. Its called criticism I believe. :) The game is still in early development, we don't know much about it, what I gather from the OP is he is not impressed with the few screenshots they've release with all this big talk, which is understandable and I agree on that. If jater wants to be rude, i cant stop him, but it doesnt look good at all, and we're trying to tell you that if you want this game to look good you cant have dev's flippin out like that. It was uncalled for, he needs to practice some tolerance and restraint or somthing.
Yes Friction did take shots at the game, but if he's taking shots at the game he's taking shots at the people who make the game too. While i agree that it was unneccesary the way Jatar responded it's nothing to overreact to. Just for a second put yourself in the shoes of a developer. You're working endless hours day & night to get the game you want it to be and then to come here to read Friction's post that just blatantly insulted a product that he/she has spent all their time & effort creating. It's just natural to feel pissed off. While this could've been avoided, it's nothing inhuman to see people express there anger. All I have to say about this is for the critics to get over it & understand it from another prespective. You would all be liars if you said you didn't act in a way you didn't want to when something happened to you. So lets just put this behind us and just keep on waiting for more info to come out on CoS. Keep up the good work MMO Magic! |
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7/08/08 12:55:07 PM#45
Personally I saw Friction2u's post as an attack on CoS. Anyone who takes the time to Google Map a picture of a physical location isn't doing it for a laugh. I re-read the post now and I still can't take his post in any other way but as an insult. If he had concerns he could have easily posted a new thread and asked Jatar. Jatar has been forthcoming with any information that he's been asked. Instead, he appears to lead some crusade against CoS and how the company is just a "screensaver company." It's a crusade post.. a post designed to inflame responses from other. I got a good laugh out of Jatar's response (which has now been edited by a forum mod). I agreed with his assessment and the relation to the poster and those shown on Jay Walking (where people are asked questions and make up crazy answers). A lot of information about the game concept, design and status are available on their website. Other information can be found in Jatar's posts or simply asking him. Instead, the thread tried to turn a small piece of information into some sort of conspiracy. A guy who works for MMO Magic made some money selling screensavers..... and? I would be willing to bet anyone working on any other game has side projects either in the same industry or not related to it. It's no big deal, I don't see how this was some "revalation" that somehow someone from MMO Magic has a side job. I'd also be pretty upset if some random person from the internet is now using satellite Google photos to track down where my employees live and post that information on public forums. As for the screenshots... Jatar has posted multiple times that these are not the final screens. They are prototypes and placeholders. You can't have a world with nothing in it to work with, otherwise you have nothing. Graphics mean nothing, anyway. EQ2 had awesome graphics and screenshots before release and was a failure of a game. Performance was horrid and the game looked nothing like it. People complained that WoW looked like crap, but it's the biggest MMO in history. Jatar has made no secret that gameplay and design comes first and Art will be done at the end. What's the point of spending money, time and resources developing art for an engine that isn't finished? Why would you devote so much time and energy without a game to put them in? The answer is that a lot of MMO companies start with pretty graphics to wow publishers into giving them money. Core gameplay and design take a back seat to pretty graphics and effects. MMO Magic is doing something different: they're focusing on the actual gameplay, design and technical details before pretty graphics. They want to do the game their way and make a working prototype before they go to a publisher. If all you have are pretty graphics, all you end up with is a pretty failure. The posted screenshots are not here to wow you into playing... they're posted because if they DIDN'T show any screenshots, there would be other threads over and over again that the game doesn't exist because there aren't any screenshots! Darkfall has had screenshots for YEARS and it's gone nowhere so far. What good are screenshots if the game doesn't even work? |
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7/08/08 1:44:26 PM#46
Up until now, this forum has had a generally nice feel to it, and I have lurked my way through. I think this thread was started to create conflict. Perhaps the dev was exhausted from working when he replied. He generally seems extremely helpful and reacts kindly to most nastiness. The best thing that can be done would be to quit posting on this thread and let it die. Let's not become like some of the other forums. I want to play this game, so I am looking for positive things to do. There is an interesting thread about abilities started today. I am going to start trying to think of ability ideas to add to that thread.
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7/08/08 9:27:08 PM#47
Originally posted by mike470
I have no idea what world you guys live in but in "my" world which is the professional world you don't go off like that. I work for a 1 billion dollar a year company. Not the highest but not chump change. And I can assure you that any person who addressed anyone like that, no matter what they said, would be fired. End of subject. As a matter of fact in all my companies I can't think of any instance in any company or even college that I worked for where a professional could do that. It's just not done. if you think this is acceptable and your current job would allow it then I highly suggest you stay there for a good long time as you are in for a huge dissapointment if you ever change jobs. As far as I am concerned I am a manager in my day life and I would have reprimanded him if he worked for me. wow. just wow. I'm simply amazed. |
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mike470
General Correspondent
Joined: 2/11/08
"We cannot change the cards we are dealt, just how we play the hand" - Randy Pausch |
7/08/08 9:57:37 PM#48
Originally posted by Sovrath
I have no idea what world you guys live in but in "my" world which is the professional world you don't go off like that. I work for a 1 billion dollar a year company. Not the highest but not chump change. And I can assure you that any person who addressed anyone like that, no matter what they said, would be fired. End of subject. As a matter of fact in all my companies I can't think of any instance in any company or even college that I worked for where a professional could do that. It's just not done. if you think this is acceptable and your current job would allow it then I highly suggest you stay there for a good long time as you are in for a huge dissapointment if you ever change jobs. As far as I am concerned I am a manager in my day life and I would have reprimanded him if he worked for me. wow. just wow. I'm simply amazed.
You hold your opinion and I hold mine. My view: Developers are people too. I see no problem with Jatar not showing respect to Friction, as Friction clearly showed rudeness towards the whole team. Saying that the team "needs to hire talented people" and calling them a "screensaver company" is clearly a painful shot. If I was on the internet, said you needed to hire more people and call you an untalented company/manager with no experience you wouldn't take offence to that? After starting up a company, using some of their own money, taking three years to work your ass off for an MMO, and then to hear someone make foolish statements (which are actually covered in the FAQ if anyone bothers to read) just to start an arguement.....you're telling me that wouldn't piss you off? THAT is bulshit, wether you admit it or not. You didn't start this billion dollar company. You're not a smaller company who used some of their own funds to get started, you're just working for the company. I'm not saying you don't work hard, but I am saying you cannot relate. Don't get me wrong, neither can I, but I am trying to see it from Jatar and the teams' view, instead of my own. Listen, Jatar doesn't even have to post here. He comes here on his own time to help everyone who is interested in the game out, and I respect that. I would not be surprised if the whole team would be pissed by this post; as it really did tae some shots. Your first post maes no sense, being respectful or not, because no one thanks someone who takes shots at everything they worked for. Once again, this is just my opinion. I don't believe Jatar should show respect for people who act like Friction did in this post; although it is clear you think otherwise. __________________________________________________ |
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7/08/08 10:30:18 PM#49
Originally posted by mike470
It has nothing to do with opinion and everything to do with being professional. If you want to be respected in this world you have to show that you are strong and professional. This doesn't mean that one can't present their point of view but if you are a dev or an employee or the CEO you represent the company. You just do. I have yet to see a gm, dev or anyone in a game company that was larger and more established behave this way. I can't say that it's never happened but I've never seen it. I've always seen cool professional if not sometimes aloof responses. I am not saying that he shouldn't be pissed or angry or "whatever". I am saying that being professional is more than something that you just say. Perhaps in a small startup it's not an issue but once you start getting established it is. And I assure you beyond a shadow of a doubt, that once a company goes public, if someone were to use that attitude in a public forum and were not dealth with and it started affecting business and stocks, the company would get sued. You can have yoru opinion that he should be justified to feel that way but professional companies won't stand for this. Even if they want to. They might do other things such as call in the lawyers for slander or some such thing but it will be done in a way that saves the company face if they can do it.
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7/08/08 10:30:40 PM#50
Originally posted by mike470
Like it or not, he's the face of the company here. They're trying to promote a product that they want people to eventually buy. Personally insulting individuals, as the "face of the company" is NOT how you gain customers. People don't like that. If you got pulled over by a cop for speeding, and he proceeded to personally insult you and your passengers for much of the traffic stop, would you go home and say "Well, I deserved it. I was going 10 mph too fast." Maybe...but I know I wouldn't be too happy.
And, as I said before, the product we're talking about is an MMO. When/if it launches, there are going to be hundreds/thousands of negative posts about the game, its system, and its designers, every day. We alll know that. All the while the devs are STILL going to be working long hours on a very personal product. So, is this how they're going to act on the official forums?
If so, then no thanks. He would have been better off ignoring the "insulting" post, and let the well informed among you correct the mistakes.
Again, I say, bad form. |
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TdogSkal
 Apprentice Member
Joined: 5/11/06
Do not fear death, Death will come a knocking anytime it wants. |
7/08/08 10:38:05 PM#51
Originally posted by Sovrath
I have no idea what world you guys live in but in "my" world which is the professional world you don't go off like that. I work for a 1 billion dollar a year company. Not the highest but not chump change. And I can assure you that any person who addressed anyone like that, no matter what they said, would be fired. End of subject. As a matter of fact in all my companies I can't think of any instance in any company or even college that I worked for where a professional could do that. It's just not done. if you think this is acceptable and your current job would allow it then I highly suggest you stay there for a good long time as you are in for a huge dissapointment if you ever change jobs. As far as I am concerned I am a manager in my day life and I would have reprimanded him if he worked for me. wow. just wow. I'm simply amazed.
Well you are correct with your post but you are not comparing the same type of Situation. You are viewing the situation from the wrong point of view. You are looking at it from a employee addressing another employee or a client or potiental client. Friction2u is none of these. This situation is basicly this. You are on a company business trip, your sitting in the hotel lobby eatting breakfast. Some guy is talking to his friend and is just bashing your company. He is telling his friend that your company is a bunch of untalented hacks that cannot do anything and that you company sells drugs to little children. He then goes on to say that everyone that works for that company is dumber then a rock and they all are about as useful as ice in greenland. Your telling me you would not give that guy a piece of your mind? Honestly? You are a better person then I my friend, because I would destroy that mans will to live. Sooner or Later |
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7/08/08 10:56:39 PM#52
Originally posted by TdogSkal
Well you are correct with your post but you are not comparing the same type of Situation. You are viewing the situation from the wrong point of view. You are looking at it from a employee addressing another employee or a client or potiental client. Friction2u is none of these. This situation is basicly this. You are on a company business trip, your sitting in the hotel lobby eatting breakfast. Some guy is talking to his friend and is just bashing your company. He is telling his friend that your company is a bunch of untalented hacks that cannot do anything and that you company sells drugs to little children. He then goes on to say that everyone that works for that company is dumber then a rock and they all are about as useful as ice in greenland. Your telling me you would not give that guy a piece of your mind? Honestly? You are a better person then I my friend, because I would destroy that mans will to live.
Who cares what one person thinks honestly? Games are bashed much much worse everyday all day on these forums and many more. Never ever do I see dev's post like that, because as its been said several times now, its unprofessional, and to hire someone like that makes the company look pathetic. For your little scenario, honestly I wouldn't give a hoot, and would continue eating my hopefully delicious breakfeast and probably pull out my ipod if it wasn't out prior to this :) I think I would know more than what some guy is saying next to me about the company I work for, if anything I would listen in on him and see if I can figure out if theirs a good reason for such smack talk and use that information to try and look better for myself, and the company. I would not curse him out or anything similar, probably wouldn't even talk to him because: 1. If I vented on the guy thats giving him an opportunity to further bash me and my company 2. He could file a lawsuit against me or the company or somthing 3. I'll look like an idiot to anyone who over hears us 4. It makes the entire company seem unprofessional which in turn drives off customers 5. If my boss heard about this event, id more than likely be fired. Looking at it from his viewpoint im sure he doesn't want people bashing his game and co workers, but its going to happen, it alway does so its somthing that you need to get over and just deal with it. |
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7/08/08 11:02:32 PM#53
Originally posted by TdogSkal
There is a difference between wanting to rip the guy a new one (which I would) and what I am allowed to do. I signed codes of conduct forms. I cannot do this. If he were to report me I could get fired. I could tell him I thought he was wrong but it would have to be in a way that was not confrontational. I have no idea what type of company you work for but as for my current company as well as my last company, we cannot do this. heck, we just signed forms stating that we would not ever use a blackberry or cell phone in a moving vehicle if we are driving unless it is hands free. companies don't mess around because of liability. |
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7/08/08 11:10:30 PM#54
I think the entire thread is being made into more then it really is x_x All friction did was research a company and reported his findings. From there, his opinion seemed to be sound. I think people are trying to equivocate hiring talented to people to saying the current team is untalented when clearly he stated that the team appeared inexperienced (which from my point of view of the website and the way the game is presented on the website is not untrue). The unprofessional response of the dev even more so promotes the idea that the team -is- small and inexperienced. To some this is an advantage, but there is knowledge to be gained from at least talking to the big boys in the industry and learning what you're getting yourself into. As a small and little-known company you have the advantage of not having anyone expect much of you, but resigning yourself to that level is a good way to finish off any potential you had, but don't be arrogant enough to treat somebody like crap because they wanted to attempt to learn more about who you are. As far as, "Maturity," is concerned, I believe the its more of a function of, "Courtesy." Even when your opponent (I guess would be the proper term) comes off sounding crude not lowering yourself to that standard can mean the difference between being read as having an insecurity touched or being calm and sure of yourself. Well, good luck to the dev in creating the game. In this industry, it doesn't hurt to have some.. |
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7/09/08 1:45:44 AM#55
I can't believe this thread is still going. Look Jatar made 3 comments about the original poster. I personally agreed with them seeing how the poster showed a complete lack of respect and OBVIOUSLY only posted with the intention to inflame people. I actually thought Jatar's remarks were funny because they were relating to a situation that is exactly what the poster was doing (making up informed data rather than just saying, "I don't know" or just asking for the right answer). If the poster would have just simply ASKED these questions in a friendly manner Jatar would have answered them. We know this from his past posting experience, the guy doesn't tend to ignore posts. Instead the original poster just decided it'd be better to research a person who's related to MMO Magic and hosts the website, who also happened to sell some screensavers on the side and pays the hosting costs of the website. What I can't understand is people who are so upset that Jatar actually had a backbone to standup to that guy. If some random person on a website was researching personal details of an employee and posting them on the internet and then calling my company untalented I'd be beyond mad. I'm tired of the PC crap that's become the norm. People get angry, people are PEOPLE. You shouldn't have to take crap from someone no matter who you are. I've seen countless devs respond in simular manners in games ranging from EQ, to WoW to Vanguard to just about any other game. Heck if you had seen the AoC beta forums you would see devs rip people all over the place, much worse than Jatar did. And those were people helping test the game, not random people on a random forum. If you look at the original poster's past history all he does is post inflamatory remarks about games that haven't been released. The MMO community doesn't need people like this who only intend to incite anger on the forums. I'd be surprised if Jatar bothers to answer anyone anymore if all he's going to get is flamed for acting like a human being. The guy makes one post in response to some jerk about how his company needs to hire talent when he's probably been working on the game for the past 3+ years at 12+ hours a day. I'm glad he showed some backbone in standing up to the guy... I want a company that will stand firm and fight for what they want, not another company that has a backbone that will bend over backwards to the will of anyone just to make a buck. I'd much rather see people talking about the game than some petty argument that's going nowhere. |
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7/09/08 8:13:52 AM#56
Originally posted by Dakirn See Noimi's post. There is a difference in being "politically correct" and Professional. It's very obvious that there are highly polarized opinions about the relationship between players and dev's. As far as why this post is still going, when anyone makes strong remarks on a public forum it's going to invite discussion. Especially when it crosses the line for some. It is what it is. It is very obvious that people in this thread come from very different backgrounds and experiences and will never see eye to eye. And we wonder why there is no world peace |
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Hashbrick
 Novice Member
Joined: 4/12/05
Only jackasses label their PC specs in their sig. |
7/09/08 8:37:56 AM#57
I'm pretty pissed off Friction did not name the credit that gave him the damn info to begin with, but anyway. This goes further then most of you know, I did some investigating on Aventurine which you can read here if you wish I'm not summing this up. Of coarse the thread is now locked since the mods love to glorify themselves in their power circles. http://mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/187818 Then else where he was going on about CoS, so I dug up information on the domains, plotted some maps and found the address linked to the company. Easily I may add, there was no doubt in my mind CoS was indeed developing something. http://mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/2114420#2114420 Anyway Friction now has a boner to go after every other game since his is more than likely never seeing the light of day.
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7/09/08 10:24:18 AM#58
Originally posted by HashBrick
Interesting, so the second link shows how Friction2u was willing to lie and do whatever it took to come 'troll' our game just to get back at 'mike', (Mike470?). Still, I was wrong to flare up about it. The tone (not facts) of my response were out of line. I apologize to the community. It won't happen again. That said, all I ask is that people ask us for information rather than make up things that just aren't true by wildly speculating. Here are some facts to clear up the latest round of speculation: 1) Atlantis3D, Inc. is not making Citadel of Sorcery. The connection is simply the licensing of an engine and two employees of A3D now work for MMO Magic, Inc. One of these is Mr. DeRuyter, who runs a P.O. Box that he uses to get mail for both companies (since he works for both). 2) Mr. DeRuyter's brother works for A3D. 3) MMO Magic, Inc. is not a 'family' business of the DeRuyters. Mr. DeRuyter is currently the Director of Level Design at MMO Magic, Inc., (Not that I have anything against a family business, we just aren't one). Anything else you want to know? Just ask. |
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7/09/08 10:29:27 AM#59
Originally posted by Jatar
Thank you. Shows Class. Good luck with the project and I look forward to seeing what you guys come up with. |
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Hashbrick
Novice Member
Joined: 4/12/05
Only jackasses label their PC specs in their sig. |
7/09/08 10:29:57 AM#60
Ya that pretty much sums it up. I know you probably don't search around the forms outside this realm much so wanted you to know what his motive was. Anyway I commend you guys on going for some innovative and new and wish you guys the best luck on this venture. Looking forward to playing it in the near future.
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Many questions have been answered by the dev, and he has revealed as much as he feels he is able from the sounds of it. 
