In his first submission to MMORPG.com in this role, our new World of Warcraft Correspondent Darren Bridle files this article discussion risk vs. Reward in the most populated MMORPG ever created, Blizzard's World of Warcraft.

Risk Versus Reward Analysis

It’s Friday night, you’re sitting down after a long hard day at work/school, you decide to fire up World of Warcraft and try your hand at one of the heroics. Whether you do it out of a love for challenging instances with friends or you’re still progressing through the game and looking for gear upgrades, the overwhelming objective is to be rewarded for your hard work. This is risk versus reward (RIvRE). For the risk you undertake, what reward do you get at the end of it? RIvRE is everywhere, not just instances, solo play and raiding, but crafting, questing and even the auction house! Follow me now as we explore where the game does RIvRE well and … where it doesn’t.

Read the whole article here.

what risk?

you waste an hour of your time?

you spend 1g repairing your armour?

seriously what risk is there?

 I didnt even bother to read more then afew lines from the article ... WoW having risk ? I seriously loled soo hard that I got a nose bleed.

haha  Risk where?

funniest thing today

Was wondering where the risk was myself, there is none. wow is just a time sink to get rewards, nothing more.

Not a bad article, all things considered.  As for risk, no doubt we will hear from the "Death must

have meaning!" crowd. The same types who loved corpse runs, lost gear and perma death

in the old days. Its a game guys...If there isn't enough "challenge" for you, by all

means find one that provides what you are looking for.

Hehe. Nose bleed =))

Well yeah, there is RI vs RE system in WoW, that we cannot argue about. But as Stradden many times there says, the "risk" in this case is "time invested" vs reward gained. If you replace every risk-word in the post with "time invested", the whole post makes much more sense, as it would make very little sense to claim there is any kind of risk (chance of loss ((other than time)) in WoW.

So I guess its just the topic, and terms used (even tho, they're correct) are misleading =)

I was really expecting a bit more from this topic, but bleh...Timewaste-enterntainment vs Pointless-goal-archeived. I guess its a system too, definetly not a "good job", but it sells  =)

"All in all, World of Warcraft does a good job with its RIvRE system, it doesn't need improvement and we all...."

Anyone need paper for their bleeding nose? =)

While I am adamant of the RIvRE idea and can relate to the opinion of the author on soloing, grouping, and raiding, I find his vision on crafting slightly short-sighted. While it is indeed true that there is little "risk" involved in the narrow sense of the word, the author did apply a broader sense of 'risk' in his analysis of grouping. I am curious whether the comparison between crafting and raiding is fuelled by a raider's frustration, rather than a 'well-rounded' player who has actually dedicated the time required to crafting.

Let's start by explaining the broader sense of risk I referred to. I will quote the author on this where he says: 

"So, where does the risk come in? Completing the event or the time taken to achieve the goal? It is my personal opinion that both should be taken into account when giving a reward..."

As we can see from this quote, the broader sense of risk includes not only the risk of failure, but also the time spent to acquire a certain reward. While the author does address this time issue for crafting as well, it is quickly dismissed under the guise of being able to just buy the entire set for a reasonable amount of gold coins. It is here that I find the author fails to realise some crucial ideas, that make crafting actually quite balanced when it comes to RIvRE.

On the one hand, it is the 'sacrifices' the crafter has to make to actually be able to craft a certain item quality. These sacrifices range from the time and money spent levelling up the crafter's skill level to the limitation of not being able to learn a different profession. Levelling crafting does not come cheap, as it requires a huge amount of money spent on materials, a lot of time harvesting the raw materials, and quite a bit of time actually crafting the items. Enchanting is a good example of a time- and money-consuming profession. Being an enchanter, your gold supply will be at a continuous low, at least until you reach the skill cap, simply because nobody is prepared to pay for anything but the highest level enchants. As for time invested, you are required to find a lot of items of green quality or higher to level up and to venture into Uldaman again and again to train your enchanting. When it comes to 'proper' enchants that might actually yield some profit, you will even need a vast amount of blue or higher quality items to disenchant.

As I indicated before, you are only able to pick two professions for your character. Being an alchemist sounds mighty fine, but the consequences of it are that you will not be able to craft yourself some decent gear and that most of your creations are not beneficial to you. A rage potion will not do a Priest much good, while a mana potion is of little use to a Warrior. This is in stark contrast with, for instance, a Leatherworker (or an Engineer, at that), whose items will mostly benefit himself. There is some proper dedication involved in crafting, be it time- and money-wise, or limitation-wise. It is this dedication that should be rewarded, too, and higher quality crafted items is just the way to do that.

On the other hand, we have the time it takes to actually acquire the required materials to craft a proper item. This includes both the ingredients and the recipes themselves. In the author's example, these ingredients are crafted materials with long cooldowns on the ability to make them. In short, they take a lot of time. Keep in mind that, while certain items may 'only' take up to a month to create, this does not only mean the crafter will have to wait a month before their item is complete, but also that they cannot use the ingredients on any other crafted item. The cooldown does not just have its effect on the end product, but also on the other products the crafter cannot create in the meantime.

As for the recipes, the ones that produce the higher quality items also take more time to acquire. Most of them have very low droprates and can only be found on certain elusive mobs. One particular instance comes to mind when I desperately wanted my Undead Warlock tailor to be able to craft his own robes for his level 30 quest. The problem was that the recipe for these robes only very rarely dropped off of two kinds of very specific mobs in two Alliance areas (namely Darkshore and Duskwood). Imagine the drudgery of grinding coupled with killing off Night Elves! Even so, this is only a level 30 recipe. The truly rare recipes that produce the most expensive items take far longer to acquire.

The author aims to set aside the above reasoning -- although he probably did not count on an account this extensive, but alas -- by introducing the relative 'ease' with which these items can be bought from the Auction House. That is to say, it is relatively easy to find enough gold and it is not that rare to see said item listed. The problem here lies in the ease with which we acquire gold, or rather, the ease with which a casual player acquires gold. I am by no means a gold farmer (and I do not assume the author to be either), but I do not raid either. This seems logical, though; if I had raided often, I would not have had the need to buy the item, because I already owned a superior one. Hence, the crafted items are not intended for raiders, but for players with a more casual play style. Along with a non-raiding play style comes a general lack of money, or a lack of substantial funds on any account. In other words, while a raider might easily enough pick up a bag of gold coins from his bank account and buy the item, gathering said bag is quite the hassle for the casual player.

The bottom-line of my response is: do not think lightly of the time invested in a crafted item. It takes time to gather the money to pay for training and to harvest the materials to produce the item, it takes dedication to a certain profession to be able to reach the skill level cap, and it takes both time and dedication to grind for that one recipe you really want. If all this sounds like too much of a bother and he prefers buying the item on the Auction House, the casual player best be prepared to know what an empty wallet feels like. Should you be a raider and money come easy, there's little holding you from buying the item, but why on Azeroth would a raider want to?

When I wrote this article, I knew it was quite a stretch, however, regardless of my opinions on Risk Vs Reward, its such a huge part of MMO's in general, I felt it needed to be looked at in WoW, no matter how little risk is there.  Time investment, can be easily slotted into the category of risk.  Since the death system in WoW is fairly bland and there is no real substance to failing or wiping in a raid environment, the time invested is a big part of it.  The reason I didn't use time vs reward is to keep it in standard with other MMO articles based on Risk Vs Reward (I wrote one for Everquest about 5-6 years ago). 

Use this article and consider it a few years from now after a few expansions, I may come back and revisit it as a comparison :)

- Darren Bridle

I read the first few lines then dropped off when I realized all that was being talked about was loot.

There is no risk in in WoW.

Risk is hunting monsters in an area known to be frequented by a guild of murderers and running for your life when you see the red names come on your screen.

Risk in WoW...... pfft.

- Haggis

You are quite right about the time invested in crafting.  However saying that, when my Fiance decided to play World of Warcraft and become a raider in my guild, I had the cash to buy all of the materials needed to make her spellfire set and spellstrike set in 1 afternoon.  The only investment on her part was crafting from 1-375 (about 2 hours of work).

If all the materials were no drop, then fair enough, but fact is, you can just simply buy the materials.  Also, one purple drop while your out soloing could bag you anywhere from 1k-1.5k (Druid staff from SSO).  For those that don't do that, my hat off to you and it will be very rewarding :)

Ultima Online: True Risk vs Reward.

There's a confusion between "Risk" and "Work" in the article.

That said... Who want to Work in a game ? Not me, and as far as i can see : noone.

Players are always taking the quickest/easiest path to get their rewards. But not all players are looking for the same kind of reward.

Some players are looking for gear upgrades for PvP.

Some players are looking for gear upgrades for PvE.

Some players want to be challenged and this challenge is a part of why they have fun, in other words : it's a part of their reward.

Some players just want to do something different than what their real life has to offer, for them things dont need to be challenging....

etc...

So... IMO, this article is old and obsolete news.

Saw the title, and though maybe they were proposing (Or better, announcing) a revision to the system of WoW to implemnt some form of risk, no matter how menial.  All I can say is, what a disappointment (Article and all.)

Originally posted by Wraithone

Not a bad article, all things considered.  As for risk, no doubt we will hear from the "Death must

have meaning!" crowd. The same types who loved corpse runs, lost gear and perma death

in the old days. Its a game guys...If there isn't enough "challenge" for you, by all

means find one that provides what you are looking for.

 

Please help me find one because I can't. All the new releases are copying the WoW model in regards to meaningless death penalties that no one fears and therefore no risk which in turn provides no challenge.
 

Classic EQ doesn't exist anymore, SOE dummied it down while turning it into a raiders only game. Yes, raiding is less challenging than grouping or soloing, it's much easier to accomplish goals while riding the coattails of many others and zerging.

I am hoping Horizons or Ryzom launch a new server or will play the new DAoC server when it launches.

WOW isn't designed to punish a player but to encourage him to keep on trying and have fun. I would like to see other mmorpgs with more risk but you can't shit all over a game because it doesn't make you lose a level or items everytime you die. It's clear to see that WOW wasn't designed for that with it's fast and fun PVP which if you lost a level or item each time you'd die then PVP would become annoying in WOW....... it's not like EVE which is designed for that gameplay.

Originally posted by JustBe

WOW isn't designed to punish a player but to encourage him to keep on trying and have fun. I would like to see other mmorpgs with more risk but you can't shit all over a game because it doesn't make you lose a level or items everytime you die. It's clear to see that WOW wasn't designed for that with it's fast and fun PVP which if you lost a level or item each time you'd die then PVP would become annoying in WOW....... it's not like EVE which is designed for that gameplay.

But EVE is a RMT sponsored game because the developers allow trading game cards for in-game currency. Since players can replace lost items with a simple credit card transaction there is no real risk in EVE either.

The whole risk verse reward is a common misconception. There is no more risk raiding than there is soloing.

In reality I died alot more doing hard solo instances like splitpaw in EQ2 than raiding in WOW. Although I was never on the cutting edge. Raiding is just a time sink.

I get the impression now that developers realise they need to cater to all playstyles.

Lots of people like me just like to solo or play in small groups with friends. Any game that only has ecent rewards for raiders loses my cash very quickly.

Originally posted by Samuraisword

Please help me find one because I can't. All the new releases are copying the WoW model in regards to meaningless death penalties that no one fears and therefore no risk which in turn provides no challenge.
 

Classic EQ doesn't exist anymore, SOE dummied it down while turning it into a raiders only game. Yes, raiding is less challenging than grouping or soloing, it's much easier to accomplish goals while riding the coattails of many others and zerging.

I am hoping Horizons or Ryzom launch a new server or will play the new DAoC server when it launches.

I got to agree with this stranger here. Current offerings in MMORPG field for games with competitive nature  (PVP, Community, or otherwise competitive) are few and far apart.

WoW in question is based on PVE as its main goal in game, its only competition factors are found in sandbox PVP (small groups) and instanced PVE archievements with no real change to enviroment  (raiding guilds). And as that, it cant really have that high built in risk factors, as there is nothing really that matters if ya lose it (individually). In games like that (that for sadly are the flawor of the year it seems), the risks are pretty much the different ways of time invested, may it be crafting time, corpse runs, grinding something, organization upkeeping and ofcourse playing together with friends. To most I guess that is plenty enough reason to keep on playing.

Other type of people exist, and they demand competitive games, and MMORPG style of delivering them. Games where risk means the chance of actually losing something, stealing/destroying something from the other team, gaining ranks/levels/name that matters in the big picture. Completely different approach to the whole MMORPG genre I would say. (And most debates are between these 2 archetypes above?)

DAoC has it, communities evolving, competing on each others in a friendly way, and against 3 other factions waging war where you actually gained real peoples appriciation, or hatred. EQ quite similary was built by its communities and competition. Risks in these were not the death's toll, but losing, to the others, those pesky others who bettered you. Losing the keep your guild owned, and paid for.
EVE has it, corporations, coalitions, alliances. Each ship destryoed is actually destroyed, and new has to be built. Each station stolen, area conquered, got your name on a map : "My Alliance holds this space." Each victory had it smell.

What I want to say is that these game types are completely different in _PURPOSE_, they're made for different kind of people with different wishes for a game they want to play. Thats why my nose bleeds too after laughing so much when the word "risk" was in same sentence with WoW =)

Well said there tho, that its just the name of the system and was needed to be used.

Thank god we got Warhammer Online coming. =) (or is there others?)

(( Dirty : Death is only one very small part of the meaning of risk in a mmo ))

Two comments:

1) You completely forgot PvP in your article...

2) The right formula is not Risk vs Reward, but (Risk+Time) vs Reward.

1) You completely forgot PvP in your article...

2) The right formula is not Risk vs Reward, but (Risk+Time) vs Reward.

It was about WoW, there is no real PVP =)

just had to say....

Originally posted by Eluwien

1) You completely forgot PvP in your article...

2) The right formula is not Risk vs Reward, but (Risk+Time) vs Reward.

 

It was about WoW, there is no real PVP =)

just had to say....

Your own (and my) definition of "right PvP" doesn't really matter...

You can get gear through other methods than what is described in the article, and that is called PvP in WoW, be it BGs or arenas.

A lot of heated opinions on this thread.  I think many of you completely miss his point.  Time is your greatest enemy, running from a bunch of reds is not risk when compared to time. 

A game is to be enjoyed, some don't get enjoyment from doing what the author did.  That is fine, play another game.  Just don't mock his enjoyment, that just shows ignorance.

Heh, EQ1 was the same way once people learned how to raid correctly (and summon corpse spell was added to the game). Once the cleric epic weapon was added, it might as well have been WoW.

All these MMO's boil down to "time invested" vs reward. Eve? Big losses really mean "I must now farm PvE missions on my alt to pay for my PvP losses." So, what risk is there besides time wasted? Same with Lineage 2...., you die,  you might lose some armor costing miilions... which you then must farm (or just buy....) to get another piece.... risk? Time wasted.

So, people need to open their eyes and smell just exactly what they're shoveling when criticizing WoW with the "No risk, only time invested" mantra... its exactly the same as every other game, just varying degrees of  "time wasted".

BTW, WoW's PvP is more PvP than Eve's Blob PvP....just had to say.

A time sink is not equal to a "Risk" you are not "Risking" your time when you sub to a game, or log in, any more than you are risking anything more than a paper cut by breaking out some playing cards and laying out a game of solitaire.  Games of old did hav some risk... which has been greatly reduced or even removed now even in the older games.  If their is not "Potential loss" there is no real "Risk" involved.  Be it loss of experience, or a penalty to future experience gains and some stat loss temporary or permanent... perhaps a percentile chance of losing some gear... some potential loss needs to be incurred for their to be actual risk equated.  I am really looking forward to the upcoming launch of WAR, but this is one of the things that will kill the game sooner for me.  I understand their concept of trying to keep people back in the action of the game, but when death is made meaningless it tends to foster the mindless 8 year old zerg mentality, rather than fostering mindful cooperative community.  This is not something that only WoW fails in.  Many games do because of the pathetic "Give me stuff now" mentality of society.  People need to reconsider what "Risk" really is before the argument can be made either way tho.  WoW over all fails at any form of Risk however (In my not so humble opinion)