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Vanguard: Saga of Heroes

Vanguard: Saga of Heroes 

General Discussion  » Vanguard throws original class design out the window.

18 posts found
  qombi

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 1187

 
OP  7/06/08 11:23:06 AM#1

Read this post before deciding whether to go to Vanguard. Sony is ruining the original concept just as predicted. Vanguard was designed to have class archtypes; Melee DPS, Tanks, Healers,  Caster DPS. As you can read from the post below now one class can switch it's role which is absurd and goes against the whole system.

How about being true to your game design and not copying some other game called WoW? WoW has done the same thing and there is problems with it. Hybrids have taken the Warrior and Priest's role in WoW. Designers need to have vision of their own rather than copy someone else thinking it will work for their game as it did a completely different game. Everyone would just play WoW if every game out there tries to be it. What would be the point of playing something else?

 

Anyhow thought people would like to know.

http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/posts/list.m?topic_id=33907

  Llessek

Novice Member

Joined: 9/20/03
Posts: 8

7/06/08 11:36:46 AM#2

Good for them... I'm sure I'm not the only one here that agrees with the decision to allow every class to fill different roles. Many people enjoy this game because of the sandbox feel... forcing any class to fit into one specific role takes away from the sandbox ideal.  Diversity in class design and roles is never a bad thing. 

In WoW an effective raid always consists of a strong balance of EVERY class, including various specs of each class.  A pally cannot tank better than a warrior in every fight, and they have in no way replaced priests or warriors.  Certain battles might favor a pally or a druid or a warrior, but class diversity is a lot more appealing than cookie cutter classes where everybody is exactly the same.

  Veingloria

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 50

7/06/08 12:25:46 PM#3

Yeah!  After reading this, I've decided to look more closely at Shamans. I usually play healers, and after abandoning my first post-return Shaman because Halasgard itself was so bugged, I think I may look more deeply into this class.  (Also, I now know that logging out fixes most bugs... which  I didn't when I threw in the towel in Myrean.) 

Frankly, with server populations so low, and my sense that many returning folk will be gone once the free month is over, I figure I better build a character who can fit into whatever group she can find.  I think this is a very good way to create the adaptability a low-population, low-influx game needs.

  Lydon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/20/06
Posts: 2920

7/06/08 12:38:05 PM#4

I personally hate it when classes are forced to play a specific role. I think it's one of the reasons I enjoy Guild Wars so much. You have your primary class and can combine it with an other class as a secondary class. Some of the combinations are insane. Mesmers (who are meant to shut-down casters) instead turn into extreme nukers due to their Fast Casting attribute shortening the long casting times of Elementalist spells.


So in short, I don't think it's such a big deal at all.

  Perception

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/07/07
Posts: 202

If you stare into the Abyss long enough the Abyss stares back at you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

7/06/08 1:55:46 PM#5

The sky is falling!

  User Deleted
7/06/08 4:50:59 PM#6

I dont really see the problem in what you are saying,yes the classes are a bit more diverse so whats the problem?

I do play a shammy and at lvl 33 I am really enjoying it but for group quests I still want a vary of different classes and in raids ofc I do,not only for the tanking abilities or healing abilities but also for the buffs etc,There has been some talk of shammies here but anyone that has played 1 will tell you we do not kill quickly our best "trick" is to outlast others and that can take sometime,for a group we still need a nuker and a tank also some of our heals have cooldowns so we arent the best to be a main healer in bad spots.

Like I have said before every class has its place in VG which is great from a player point of view.

 

  Elikal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8067

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

7/06/08 5:45:56 PM#7

Dunno whats wrong with a diversity of choices? Many MMOs have skill trees which enable you to shape the class in several ways. How is that bad to have more choice?

A forum is a place where people can discuss about different opinions. So what I don't get is, how people react offended when they come to a forum and then find... well different opinions. If a different opinion offends you, what are you even doing here?

  Murugan

Novice Member

Joined: 4/18/08
Posts: 1567

7/06/08 5:56:43 PM#8

Shamans currently already are able to choose one of three forms (which can be changed in any city) they are Rakkur (melee dps), Tuurgin (tank), and Hayatet (caster).  They are still primarily a healer but each of these forms gives them a unique flavor.

 

This change is going to make form choice more than a simple flavoring of the class depending on the form you choose, it will make Tuurgin's viable tanks for most content, Hayatets respectable casters, and Rakkur respectable melee dps.  The idea is that if played to their fullest they should be on par with classes in that archetype while in their so called "super totem form" (not actual name) but without the ability to heal.

 

So people are saying no one will roll any other class because shaman can do it all (which is true without changing characters they could do it all, though they would have to respec, regear, and re allocate their attributes each time).  The reality is that while they will be a much stronger hybrid than "hybrid" classes in most games by actually being viable in their secondary role they will not replace any other class.

 

They will be the most versatile class in game, and I guess you could say the most powerful because of that but as far as end game goes Tuurgin's will not be replacing real tank classes, Rakkur will not be competing with rogues and monks for the top of dps charts, and Hayatet will not be taking sorcerer's raid slots.  They will be able to fill these rolls in a pinch, but there is no way they are going to scale them to be more powerful than the existing classes in that archetype to the point where all other classes become obsolete, to think that is the case is absurd.

 

All they are doing is making the totems more than token secondary roles, it is kind of like adding a new class to each archetype but that doesn't mean the rest of the classes will necessarily suffer because of it.

http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan

  User Deleted
7/06/08 10:16:35 PM#9
Originally posted by Elikal

Dunno whats wrong with a diversity of choices? Many MMOs have skill trees which enable you to shape the class in several ways. How is that bad to have more choice?

EDIT:  I did not fully read the quote.

 

 

Skill trees are horrid.  They pigeonhole your character to a certain skill-set.

 


My original post was praising customization, not class specialization.

 

 

Customization = good.  Specialization(trees) = bad.

  eugam

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/15/07
Posts: 993

Something must have happened to the gene pool lately...

7/07/08 4:07:53 AM#10
Originally posted by Murugan

All they are doing is making the totems more than token secondary roles, it is kind of like adding a new class to each archetype but that doesn't mean the rest of the classes will necessarily suffer because of it.


 

I dont fear they mess up other classes. To be a successful shaman raid tank you need to spec AND itemize for it. They even have to add items to the game, because there are not enough shaman tank items in-game. Same for caster or melee DPS.

 

I do fear they mess up the current shaman setups. There have been quite some stealth nerfs to the shaman. Mid30ies the bear is no tank pet anymore. He cant hold aggro. Not even against the shamans solo power. Not even in medicore gear with  balanced melee, healer, caster specs. Currently  the wolf probably holds aggro better with his dps then the bear with  his taunt. To many stealth nerves...

 

I do fear us shamans will loose versatility, not gain. And this change is unnecessary. Shamans are fine, no bugs and ok balanced. Why again fix stuff that aint broken ? Many people just asked one question on the froums: Why ? Talisker and Cas keep blabbering about deeper gameplay and dps and blablabla. But they dont answer the why. Aint that suspicious ?

  Meridion

Novice Member

Joined: 6/22/06
Posts: 1501

None of you understand. I'm not locked in here with you. You're locked in here with me!

7/07/08 7:40:27 AM#11

Class diversity = good

being able to switch your class from "full damage" to "full healer" while other classes can't = BAD!

 

Its a thin line between choice and driving other classes out of business.

What REALLY is a good thing: Dumping classes alltogether and allowing people to access 2, 3 or more skill trees that they can follow and combine PLUS allowing them to leave their paths and pursue other jobs if  they want to... forcing a mage to compete with a necromant that does as much damage and has pets and can wear medium armor (no specific game, just examples) is a problem, allowing the mage to specialize on swordmastery (e.g.) is a solution

Meridion

 

 

  skeaser

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/13/07
Posts: 3687

Don't die mad, just die.

7/07/08 7:44:31 AM#12

I love it, especially on my cleric, I excel at healing, but I can take a punch and do decent DPS. This would be an ENORMOUS deal if this were a PvP-centric game, but as it is full PvE (unless you're one of the 4 people who play on the PvP server) it is perfectly ok IMO. It let's people have a little more fun without getting as bored of doing the same thing. It also helps, especially with the low pop, in the fact that I can fill multiple roles in a group, reducing the amount of time waiting for a specific group. Just becuase you don't like it, don't make it bad.


A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
-Friedrich Nietzsche

  Bronks

Novice Member

Joined: 2/14/04
Posts: 220

7/07/08 7:45:32 AM#13
Originally posted by qombi

Read this post before deciding whether to go to Vanguard. Sony is ruining the original concept just as predicted. Vanguard was designed to have class archtypes; Melee DPS, Tanks, Healers,  Caster DPS. As you can read from the post below now one class can switch it's role which is absurd and goes against the whole system.

How about being true to your game design and not copying some other game called WoW? WoW has done the same thing and there is problems with it. Hybrids have taken the Warrior and Priest's role in WoW. Designers need to have vision of their own rather than copy someone else thinking it will work for their game as it did a completely different game. Everyone would just play WoW if every game out there tries to be it. What would be the point of playing something else?

 

Anyhow thought people would like to know.

http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/posts/list.m?topic_id=33907

I guess I'm broken... i can't access the thread :(

creamaweet Xfire Miniprofile
  qombi

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 1187

 
OP  7/07/08 10:03:43 AM#14
Originally posted by Meridion

Class diversity = good

being able to switch your class from "full damage" to "full healer" while other classes can't = BAD!

 

Its a thin line between choice and driving other classes out of business.

What REALLY is a good thing: Dumping classes alltogether and allowing people to access 2, 3 or more skill trees that they can follow and combine PLUS allowing them to leave their paths and pursue other jobs if  they want to... forcing a mage to compete with a necromant that does as much damage and has pets and can wear medium armor (no specific game, just examples) is a problem, allowing the mage to specialize on swordmastery (e.g.) is a solution

Meridion

 

 


 

I have to agree with your post. If the game was designed in which all classes can then fine but this game isn't designed like that. One class that can is bad and stupid. The game mechanics and class design is a nice design in it's own right.

If I wanted that design I would play WoW. I don't want a copy cat of WoW, I want a different game. This is absurd they would do this when the game design isn't broken, it works quite well actually.

  qombi

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 1187

 
OP  7/07/08 10:05:46 AM#15
Originally posted by skeaser

I love it, especially on my cleric, I excel at healing, but I can take a punch and do decent DPS. This would be an ENORMOUS deal if this were a PvP-centric game, but as it is full PvE (unless you're one of the 4 people who play on the PvP server) it is perfectly ok IMO. It let's people have a little more fun without getting as bored of doing the same thing. It also helps, especially with the low pop, in the fact that I can fill multiple roles in a group, reducing the amount of time waiting for a specific group. Just becuase you don't like it, don't make it bad.


 

It is okay that classes can have some diversity as you speak of such as secondary abilities but that is not what is happening with the shaman. The shaman is now classified as being in every archtype. Read the forum descriptions even under archtypes.

  User Deleted
7/07/08 10:42:07 AM#16

 

...

  morpin

Novice Member

Joined: 11/10/05
Posts: 360

7/08/08 10:18:20 AM#17

It looks like they are re-thinking the Shaman Revamp.

TaliskerSOE


Developer

Joined: Nov 6, 2007
Messages: 42
Offline

 
Based on the large amount of feedback in both directions we have reevaluated the current plan.  Update to how this is going to work will be added to the OP.  Stay tuned.

http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/posts/list.m?start=330&topic_id=34788&#409408

You may or may not like the game, but time and time again the Vanguard developers have shown that really do listen to the community.  Perhaps the whole SWG/NGE fiasco really did sink in.

I am actually not a big fan of the original proposed Shaman change.  I was hoping they where going to just increase our DPS which really needs some work. 

  boojiboy

Novice Member

Joined: 10/28/06
Posts: 1543

7/08/08 10:31:55 AM#18
Originally posted by qombi

Read this post before deciding whether to go to Vanguard. Sony is ruining the original concept just as predicted. Vanguard was designed to have class archtypes; Melee DPS, Tanks, Healers,  Caster DPS. As you can read from the post below now one class can switch it's role which is absurd and goes against the whole system.

How about being true to your game design and not copying some other game called WoW? WoW has done the same thing and there is problems with it. Hybrids have taken the Warrior and Priest's role in WoW. Designers need to have vision of their own rather than copy someone else thinking it will work for their game as it did a completely different game. Everyone would just play WoW if every game out there tries to be it. What would be the point of playing something else?

 

Anyhow thought people would like to know.

http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/posts/list.m?topic_id=33907


 

Ummm no... Sony is fixing the classes to work as intended.  Prior to my class fix (the Psionicist), my Mindspell series of spells neve worked, now they do, my psychic mutation never worked, now it does, we were not the masters of crowd control, now we are, our stances work properly, our buffs stack properly, the stat-cap bug was fixed, etc. etc. etc.

Nearly every class was launched broke and Sony has gone through and fixed most of them.  Not all classes are happy, but for the most part it's been a good thing, it's balanced classes out properly, fixed most of the class bugs and clears the way for AA implentation when they finish up.

If you think they are cloning classes to WoW you need to actually roll a few toons and try for yourself.