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Citadel of Sorcery

Citadel of Sorcery 

General Discussion  » Possible class options

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35 posts found
  MyGoodFellow

Novice Member

Joined: 4/05/08
Posts: 7

8/29/08 2:22:27 AM#21

*Transforms out of Lurker mode*

Hello, I was reading this and was thinking of a couple ideas that might work, for quick, and easy group "assessment" interface or indicator.

This is what I was thinking, instead of representing it numerically, it could be shown as a pie chart, with colors representing League affiliations. The player could view it in several different ways, for example, the chart breaks further down, into ranged, magic, utility, holding durability (tank), etc.

The pie's colors could be 'brighter' based on additional Echelons, or training. The concept I have in mind is like a color palette, providing smooth, gradual transitions between color, instead of a simple 5-color chart that is sharply divided. This would allow for a more subtle know-at-a-glance idea of what their skill breakdown is.

 

And the second idea would be for a player to have a group interface they can toy with well before they start inviting people.

What it would do is this:

1. player sets the kind of abilities they are looking for, in their group breakdown. Maybe it fits their style, or mostly fits their style, etc.

1a. Player can set up to 8 slots' worth, so they know the position they want for each slot in the group, what it can do, etc.

2. After they set their preferences, they can turn on this matchmaking interface. What it will do is give a % match for what they are looking for, in whatever slot they set it to be.

2a. The slots can be labelled, for quick reference later, lest one forgets what they want in that slot.

 

Example: They want someone that is 80% Hero, 15% Magic, and 5% Shadow. Someone comes along who has trained somewhat differently, but is a very desirable match, at say around 75% of what they are looking for. They know at a glance if they will fit in to the group they have in mind. And they know the slot they will fit, at a glance.

So they can say to themselves: "ok, slot 6, that is my DPS slot."

  skipeth

Novice Member

Joined: 11/12/05
Posts: 66

8/29/08 8:49:01 AM#22

Colors.  Brilliant!

As an example, DDO uses a symbol to identify the classes.  When scanning players online, the class symbols and levels made it easy to pick out who could potentially fill gaps in the party.

A graphic indicating relative strengths when sorting through a list of LFM is much quicker than reading a set of percentages.  Real percentages aren't going to be nice numbers like 80, 10, 10 either.  Finally, people aren't going to get any more relevant info out of exact numbers than a simple chart.

  MyGoodFellow

Novice Member

Joined: 4/05/08
Posts: 7

8/29/08 3:15:29 PM#23

I'm thinking a refinement on the color idea could be: instead of a pie chart, when you turn on LFM or LFG, portray a halo around others' heads who are LFM or LFG, in the same kind of style as the pie chart.

This would reduce UI clutter, and let you know not only who is LF(something), but if you want to have their skill set in your group. Theroetically this shouldnt affect performance while adventuring or questing during the action, as it would be off.

I dont know what the magic system in CoS is, but i know that being able to magically see seems to be a common idea in fantasy. This could be explained as the ability to sense another's intent and power, under certain conditions.

On further thinking: having a halo is likely used as a smoke effect, which can take alot of processing power, if there are alot of halos on the screen. Perhaps a "pie" over their heads?

A Hybrid of the two, maybe? Maybe it could be a UI effect that can be turned on and off, without having to go into the LFG menu to check the players?

  skipeth

Novice Member

Joined: 11/12/05
Posts: 66

9/02/08 8:59:02 AM#24

From what Jatar has hinted at, players will generally take 2 leagues and pick up a few skills from the other 3. Unless each league is well defined (like a class) then we can't assume that an individual with a specific pie over his head can fulfill a specific role. Previously Jatar said, "So you open up this mass of information, thirty abilities each at various echelons of advancement." If that is 30 per league, then clearly leagues are not well defined like a class.

I think MyGoodFellow's suggestion about the group interface would be most useful. This would also help people settle into a classless system. In other games such as WoW, EQ, DDO, etc. everyone knows what their role is and the role of each party member based on the class.

The MUD I used to play (SlothMud) had a group job command that allowed players to provide info about their job in the group. By checking the group, a player could quickly identify the leader, tank, second tank, stabber, healer, blaster etc.

I'll finish this post up with some theorizing about the University Degree programs.

5 programs where a single league is dominant and a smattering of other abilitities. (>75% in primarmy)

20 programs where one league is the primary source of abilities with a strong second league. (approx. 60-40 split)
 

  Jatar

Novice Member

Joined: 9/16/07
Posts: 329

Citadel of Sorcery dev team member

9/02/08 11:26:21 AM#25

In CoS there are five Leagues of knowledge.  However, do not confuse a League with a character class.  Example: if ten players only took Abilities from one League, each of their characters could be vastly different.  You could create many different custom character classes out of just one League.  Now, throw in the fact that you can mix Abilities in from the other Leagues and you get some idea of the amount of 'classes' possible.  Having a 'pie' chart over my head based on League percentages would not tell another player the true details of that character's skill.

 

 

  skipeth

Novice Member

Joined: 11/12/05
Posts: 66

9/02/08 3:08:06 PM#26

Since there seems to be no good programmatic way to identify players, perhaps a short free text tag for LFG and LFM would be the best solution.  This system is the most flexible as it makes no pre-defined assumptions and can change over time as players learn the game and what we can do in the world.

It has the added benefit of helping to pre-identify ass-clowns.

Kelric - LFG - Tank

Drizzt - LFG - I is teh |3ADA$$

  MyGoodFellow

Novice Member

Joined: 4/05/08
Posts: 7

9/04/08 9:21:43 PM#27

Summary at bottom, if this is too much to read :) (Meandering thoughts, within!)

The text tag is a good idea, but I think some players may have trouble describing their role within a group, at least at first. Perhaps a text-based hybrid solution, like a drop-down menu of selections, based off their skill choices, as a suggestion tag?

In addition to that, the selected tag could also be displayed in a LFG window. I know that the selections of skills are large, and the possible 'names' of a role within a group would be even larger. Therefore, what if this "Tag" were something the player base could come up with? Sort of a pool of names, a person could pick from, that describe that set of choices, that approximate the player's own, by at least 50% matches.

To avoid spam choices, perhaps a voting system could be passively implemented? Say a player talks with their group, they come up with a name for their role, the player would edit their choice into the list and the rest of the (full) group would have to pick it and vote yes. After that it would appear in the public group listing, temporarily, for an hour, say.

This would be available to the public in general, and would garner a certain number of votes by how many people pick yes. If it passes a certain percentage, say 70% of the population in the area online at that time? Then it would be put into the public pool of role-names for that configuration of skills, with a +/- margin. so if someone else wants to pick that role-name, they dont have to be an exact match.

Players who dont vote count as an automatic no, of course. The drop-down menu of choices would be available only when someone wanted to classify themself. Otherwise it would be out of the way, and not intruding on anyone's attention.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                                                                 Style choices:

Player skill is important when determining a person's role within the group. Broader choices dictate, by necessity, that a player is more flexible in a role, and can easily perform several functions within the group. And Following out of that, you have player style, which is how the player is comfortable playing.

Perhaps to make a group's finding of another member, an option would be to have a player listed by their style. This could be a beneficial thing, because a group made entirely of laid-back people would have a fun time, hopefully without the odd friction element, of heads butting. Alternatively, a group of serious minded people, who enjoy challenging themselves, wouldnt be stuck with the 'casual' element that fustrates them?

But that is a shallow level of style, a most basic gameplay choice. Perhaps we were thinking more along the lines of 'Ok, this guy likes to flip around alot and hit things with ninja-like accuracy, etc". How would one say, this particular style is? Above and beyond just the casual or serious nature of their play? That could be put under a general style of "Aggressive" for example. Or someone else, who likes watching their group for AI aggro and intercepting incoming attackers, might be considered "Defensive" style.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

So, to sum up things: a text tag is a good idea, to have a player self-label. One may not even need to go through the trouble of voting for 'role-name' tags to supplement that. Style would likely be the most important, overarching, concept to watch for in a group's lineup. Whether, it would be Defensive, Aggressive, Healing, Damage, or Control, etc. Lastly, a person can be a combination of a style, an Aggressive Healer, or Defensive Control.

 

  Jatar

Novice Member

Joined: 9/16/07
Posts: 329

Citadel of Sorcery dev team member

9/06/08 12:03:31 PM#28

Roles in CoS are very diverse, and simple tags like 'Tank' certainly won't work. Sure, you could probably make your character somewhat 'Tank' like, but why would you? In many MMO's the designation 'Tank' means that you have a lot of defense, can take a lot of punishment, but don't do a lot of damage. This works in a game where you typically fight very few opponents (often just one) at a time. This is not true in CoS.

The result is, everybody fights.

We're not including a 'taunt' Ability to pull all the monsters to one person, it's impractical, and really not very realistic.

There are some Abiities, like 'Hold the Line' that help warriors who put themselves across a narrow opening to keep opponents from getting past, and there are concealment, and 'web' typpe abilities, to help control some of the opponents, but no way to force all opponents to attack one character.

Anyway, this is just to point out that roles in CoS are not as narrow as you may be used to in other games. Your characters are much more complex, and capable of using different strategies in different situations, rather than one strategy for all. Therefore, each character will have a diverse set of Abilities.

As a side note, this also helps when you want to solo, or just have a small group of two or three.

So this means that when trying to fill a position in your group, there really isn't a specific 'need' since most characters will have a broad set of Abilities. When it comes to character types, you can probably tell quite a bit by just how they look. If they are dressed in plate armor, you can assume they probably favor melee combat, etc.

But, although CoS features a specific District (the Tavern District) in the Citadel as a place where LFG players can go to physically find other LFG players, they can also use the UI system. But, if we include a 3D render of the player in the LFG UI system, you could still get a 'look' at the prospective team member.

We are considering allowing players to look at the other players complete list of Abilities. This would be voluntary, meaning the player could uncheck the option and then other players could not look at this information.

But the idea of play 'style' is also important, and this cannot be seen from looking at the character, or even reading their Abilities list. So, as an option we are considering allowing any player to write a short (500 characters) description of their character. They can write anything they want to describe their style of play, what they like to do in battles, etc. Then other PCs can read this description to get an idea of the kind of team member they might be, and the style they like to play.

 

 

  Azure2330

Novice Member

Joined: 4/13/08
Posts: 5

9/07/08 2:12:07 AM#29

Hmm I think ill make a Gargoyle with shadow or Jenomos with shadow or spirit.

  skipeth

Novice Member

Joined: 11/12/05
Posts: 66

9/08/08 11:01:45 AM#30

Since you are not implementing taunt (which I think is pretty lame) then I will conjecture that the monster AI will be more robust than an FSM that simply targets the pc with the highest aggro score. 

As to the original topic, I'm thinking Human that is heavy in Shadow with some Magic.

  Jatar

Novice Member

Joined: 9/16/07
Posts: 329

Citadel of Sorcery dev team member

9/09/08 1:04:07 AM#31
Originally posted by skipeth

Since you are not implementing taunt (which I think is pretty lame) then I will conjecture that the monster AI will be more robust than an FSM that simply targets the pc with the highest aggro score. 

As to the original topic, I'm thinking Human that is heavy in Shadow with some Magic.

Yeah, Taunt is an skill made specifically for the 'Tank' system of specific roles. Since we don't have those kind of narrow roles in CoS it doesn't make as much sense. Each player in a group can do many different roles, based on the strategy you come up with to fight a specific type of opponent. You'll need other strategies for other opponents.

So yes, the monster AI will be more robust. We use an intelligence rating that governs the options available to the A.I. Or in other words, dumb monsters act dumb, smart monsters act smart, and have far more options available.

 

 

  skipeth

Novice Member

Joined: 11/12/05
Posts: 66

9/09/08 8:57:49 AM#32

Perhaps on the LFG UI, to reduce clutter, show the first 20 or so characters of the free text.  Then if the player looks interesting, you can hover to bring up a tooltip box to show the full text.  This would be a lot easier if you could just post a screenshot of the UI.

Glad to see a level of smarts being applied to mobs.  So then, will there be squad-level AI as well?  It's kinda lame when a mob acts the same whether you pull one or 100.  Some of the more intelligent behaviors you're working on will probably offset this.  However, groups should work together like squads do in FPS games like F.E.A.R. 

Example:  Enemy "squad" is holding a gate.  Several tank-types are in front with ranged on the walls.  Player with long range weapon snipes a guard, pulling him away from his post to get slaughtered.  Lame.  With a squad leader in charge of guarding the gate, the guard will hold position while a healer patches him up.  If there is no healer and the enemy is out of range, the squad leader may pull the guards inside the gate to defensive positions so they aren't picked off. 

  noobzor

Novice Member

Joined: 8/04/08
Posts: 43

am not afraid of death just the process of...

9/09/08 11:08:39 PM#33

that sounds like an extremely good idea skipth

for an offensive group say your wounded and taking cover from the ranged units behind a wall somthing they might do is keep you pinned with 1 or 2 of there ranged while the rest move to get a better postion while gaurded by melee of course this would be really E.V.I.L. 

or if the morpheal ( i think i spelled it right) siege a town if you show a great front defense they might see this and try to find another way in.

oh and i have an exalent plan for fending of zombies from a town but thats mine.

  mike470

General Correspondent

Joined: 2/11/08
Posts: 2429

"We cannot change the cards we are dealt, just how we play the hand" - Randy Pausch

9/10/08 6:20:52 AM#34
Originally posted by skipeth

Perhaps on the LFG UI, to reduce clutter, show the first 20 or so characters of the free text.  Then if the player looks interesting, you can hover to bring up a tooltip box to show the full text.  This would be a lot easier if you could just post a screenshot of the UI.

Glad to see a level of smarts being applied to mobs.  So then, will there be squad-level AI as well?  It's kinda lame when a mob acts the same whether you pull one or 100.  Some of the more intelligent behaviors you're working on will probably offset this.  However, groups should work together like squads do in FPS games like F.E.A.R. 

Example:  Enemy "squad" is holding a gate.  Several tank-types are in front with ranged on the walls.  Player with long range weapon snipes a guard, pulling him away from his post to get slaughtered.  Lame.  With a squad leader in charge of guarding the gate, the guard will hold position while a healer patches him up.  If there is no healer and the enemy is out of range, the squad leader may pull the guards inside the gate to defensive positions so they aren't picked off. 


 

Different monsters will have different AI.  When you attack one guard it triggers them all to attack you (unless you are sneaky and just kill one without the others noticing).

Interesting idea with the squad AI, although I remember hearing that groups can work together and kill you.

__________________________________________________
In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08 - Rest In Peace; you will not be forgotten

  skipeth

Novice Member

Joined: 11/12/05
Posts: 66

9/10/08 8:52:25 AM#35

  Since there are no class options in CoS I declare that the original topic is off topic and will make game AI a seperate topic

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