Warhammer Online will employ one of the most interesting class systems in any MMORPG to date when they debut in the Fall. In part one of this two-part series, Jon Wood speaks to Mythic's Adam Gershowitz about the three ideas that formed the backbone of the careers design.

Recently, I had the opportunity to sit down with Adam Gershowitz, the Combat and Careers strike team lead over at EA Mythic’s Warhammer Online. During the interview, we talked about the classes in Warhammer (known as Careers) and what went into the overall design process in bringing them to life.

The Warhammer Online careers system has gone through an evolution since the game was announced, moving from an extremely complex system when the game was first announced, to the complex and interesting but ultimately more understandable system that we have today and will see at launch.

Read it all here.

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Only problem I see with having lots of classes is balance but if they get that right which they wont at first then it'll be a hit because all the classes are interesting on the destruction side atleast.

When they say the first take on the careers was too complex, was it anything close to the fantasy roleplay system? Which typically started as something like a simple woodcutter or academic, then they would branch out into more sophistacted roles such as brigand, captain, judicial champion or pit fighter and of course if you are a dwarf the slayer careers.

There was also non-combat careers like demagogue, charlatan all revolving around manipulating innoncent folks (being non-combat it is easy to see why these wouldnt fit the current career formats).

The point is they all relied on prerequisite skills to be learned before one could progress from a base career to the more 'high brow' stuff. Typically it would take half a decade just to get to wizard rank 1 in the pnp game (unless the dm was kind with exp). I can see why the system will never make it into an mmo type format, although maybe a platform like the 4th edition d&d it would work.

Anyway looking forward to the next part of the interview :)

Originally posted by Silverthorn8

When they say the first take on the careers was too complex, was it anything close to the fantasy roleplay system? Which typically started as something like a simple woodcutter or academic, then they would branch out into more sophistacted roles such as brigand, captain, judicial champion or pit fighter and of course if you are a dwarf the slayer careers.

There was also non-combat careers like demagogue, charlatan all revolving around manipulating innoncent folks (being non-combat it is easy to see why these wouldnt fit the current career formats).

The point is they all relied on prerequisite skills to be learned before one could progress from a base career to the more 'high brow' stuff. Typically it would take half a decade just to get to wizard rank 1 in the pnp game (unless the dm was kind with exp). I can see why the system will never make it into an mmo type format, although maybe a platform like the 4th edition d&d it would work.

Anyway looking forward to the next part of the interview :)

Yeah, I totally loved that system as well...

However since the MMORPG is squarely based on TT portion of the IP rather than RPG one (I believe it's even been given over to a separate company while GW concentrates on the TT), the existing career system is OK.

A WHFRPG career system would be awesome but then it wouldn't be all about WAR since a lot of those classes aren't purely combat ones. It would be better suited for a more classical MMO rather than a RvR one. Oh well...

The early on problems with the classes wasn't so much the classes themselvs as the Mastery System. It wasn't very well exsplained or layed out. Not really their fault they hadn't ever tried anything like it and the first version of it, as no surprise, floped. It wasn't the system or the ideas just the application. So they went back and clearly exsplained the system, how it worked and how it effected you. They also redesigned what you got and how much that might effect the game for you. This now has a huge effect on you as a player. Because it lets you play the game, as they like to say "Your Way" for instance you can deside to be a DOT Sorc, or an AoE Sorc, or a DD Bolt casting Sorc. You will still have spells from all the lines, but the one you speced will has special ablities and boosted spells dmg ect. So naturaly you'll prob use the line you speced more then the rest. It's a really robust system as far as I understand. it just took them a bit to get there.

As for the balance thing I agree it will be hard to do, but not so hard as you'd think. Afterall a Mele dps needs to have some kinda hard cap on their dps per level per encounter. As long as your Orc and my Dwarf both have the same DPS, who cares who were doing it. I belive that was the key point to the system. Not so much that everyone whos Mele DPS has to be a rogue,, but that when 2 of them hit each other. The player with more skill will win, not the one class because it's a BETTER mele DPS.

just my 2 cents. As a disclaimer I'm NOT in the beta, but I like other hard cores have been keeping up with ever bit of avail info. All thease statements are drawn from publicly open information. Though it is only the info Mythic has released.. so it could all be smoke and mirrors for all I know.. I'm just saying it's what I understand it to be  so no one stahb me to death for being a haritic I didn't mislead on purpose if I have!

Originally posted by markoraos

Originally posted by Silverthorn8

When they say the first take on the careers was too complex, was it anything close to the fantasy roleplay system? Which typically started as something like a simple woodcutter or academic, then they would branch out into more sophistacted roles such as brigand, captain, judicial champion or pit fighter and of course if you are a dwarf the slayer careers.

There was also non-combat careers like demagogue, charlatan all revolving around manipulating innoncent folks (being non-combat it is easy to see why these wouldnt fit the current career formats).

The point is they all relied on prerequisite skills to be learned before one could progress from a base career to the more 'high brow' stuff. Typically it would take half a decade just to get to wizard rank 1 in the pnp game (unless the dm was kind with exp). I can see why the system will never make it into an mmo type format, although maybe a platform like the 4th edition d&d it would work.

Anyway looking forward to the next part of the interview :)

 

Yeah, I totally loved that system as well...

However since the MMORPG is squarely based on TT portion of the IP rather than RPG one (I believe it's even been given over to a separate company while GW concentrates on the TT), the existing career system is OK.

A WHFRPG career system would be awesome but then it wouldn't be all about WAR since a lot of those classes aren't purely combat ones. It would be better suited for a more classical MMO rather than a RvR one. Oh well...

EQ2 sis the archetype system and it turned out badly because you couldn't play the class you wanted to straight away even though you knew what class you were going to be eventually, then you'd get there and the class would suck and go "i cant be bothered with this again" and chuck the game away.

Nice read Stradden,

 Can't wait for part 2. I really like the archetype system,as I will be the Black Guard,and as such I know my role is to keep choke points blocked and make it very hard for ANYONE to get to the Dark Elf casters,healers,or Witch Elves. Add to this the "Tactics" and "Morale"  abilities, and Masteries. This will be one hell of a fun system to play,at least to me any way.

Originally posted by JustBe

Only problem I see with having lots of classes is balance but if they get that right which they wont at first then it'll be a hit because all the classes are interesting on the destruction side atleast.

Balance is only a problem if the game system calls for 100% balance.  Thats why games like WOW are 100% relying on the devs buffing and nerfing.   That calls for what ?  Unhappy ppl and unbalanced game if not done right. 

Good MMO systems are self supporting.  They dont create extra problems with overpopulated classes while others are not played  - just because they are so uber or so poor.    How you make such systems ?  You increse the benefits of working with outhers - and the more that work together - the bigger rewards.  And you DON'T create any side systems that destroy the overall game balance. 

Lets look at this from a well known game.  WOW...  We have the normal  5 man PVE system and the 25 man PVE content.   It is based on many ppl working together - thus making balance in terms of uber versus gimped less important when doing diffrent encounters.  But then... we have the current Arena system.  System that is NOT supporting the orginal base of the game.  Some specs in Arena are NOT supported at all (tanks) and some classes and specs are very poor compared to others.  That calls for what ?   More ppl playing the none tank specs =  Lack of this spec for the 5 man dungeons.  And more ppl are playing the op specs (healing druids compared to other druid specs) and ppl even leave their orginal classes cause they are so bad in Certain content of the game.    And then WOTLK comes out... And the game can no longer support the basics of 5 man system.  Some specs are simply missing while others are overpopulated - preventing ppl from actually enjoying alot of the content.

The basic system of War does not call for 100% balance.  Its all relying on - not only groups but even bigger groups working together - and not really relying on perfect spec setup.  Thats why we wont see all the ... OMG nerf this class or OMG buff us !!    Thats another game and sign of bad design.

I don't get it to be honest. Don't other games have a relatively similar job system? for example, in WoW only certain classes can be certain professions, not all races can be everything. I noticed this in EQ2 and I believe even DAoC, heck I believe LOTRO and DDO has this too. The only difference is that the other MMO's decided to expand more professions to other races, but again, this isn't to say that it isn't all THAT different from what WAR is trying to do... or am I missing something here?

I find it odd that they describe this as an "evolution" when it's so similar to the model used in DAoC, just taken a teeny bit further.  Of course, this system does make a lot more sense with the way tabletop Warhammer units are done.

Originally posted by Bane82

I don't get it to be honest. Don't other games have a relatively similar job system? for example, in WoW only certain classes can be certain professions, not all races can be everything. I noticed this in EQ2 and I believe even DAoC, heck I believe LOTRO and DDO has this too. The only difference is that the other MMO's decided to expand more professions to other races, but again, this isn't to say that it isn't all THAT different from what WAR is trying to do... or am I missing something here?

 

No, what they are talking about is that each race has their own specific classes.  They all have the same base properties (ie tank, healer, melee dps) they are just named differently.  There are no class transitions to other races, again each race has their own class.

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Originally posted by Hexxeity
I find it odd that they describe this as an "evolution" when it's so similar to the model used in DAoC, just taken a teeny bit further.  Of course, this system does make a lot more sense with the way tabletop Warhammer units are done.

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That's exactly my point. Not only that, but a number of MMO's have something relatively similar (using the term very loosely here) where not every single race can be every single profession, WoW and EQ2 are prime examples of this. The only difference being that the other MMO's expanded the number of professions a race can be, instead of limiting it and then give them different names.

So is it really "new"? doesn't seem like it. To me, a unique career system was that in FFXI (2 jobs at a time) because it was different from the steretypical system (one job per char) or SWG's (multiple professions/skills at the same time) or Lineage 2's system (similar to SWG, although I'm sure SWG tooktheir inspiration off of Lineage 2)

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Originally posted by Locklain

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Originally posted by Bane82

I don't get it to be honest. Don't other games have a relatively similar job system? for example, in WoW only certain classes can be certain professions, not all races can be everything. I noticed this in EQ2 and I believe even DAoC, heck I believe LOTRO and DDO has this too. The only difference is that the other MMO's decided to expand more professions to other races, but again, this isn't to say that it isn't all THAT different from what WAR is trying to do... or am I missing something here?
 

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No, what they are talking about is that each race has their own specific classes.  They all have the same base properties (ie tank, healer, melee dps) they are just named differently.  There are no class transitions to other races, again each race has their own class.

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ahh ok I get it... but then... if that's the case, basically they still didn't do anything really different other than allot/assign certain jobs (of which most MMO's already have out there anyway) for only certain races and just give them different names? But it still begs to ask the question... is it really "new"? DAoC is actually a great example of how it's almost a direct parallel of WAR's job system. The "vampire" profession of DAoC for example comes to mind for example.

Originally posted by Bane82

 

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Originally posted by Hexxeity
I find it odd that they describe this as an "evolution" when it's so similar to the model used in DAoC, just taken a teeny bit further.  Of course, this system does make a lot more sense with the way tabletop Warhammer units are done.

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That's exactly my point. Not only that, but a number of MMO's have something relatively similar (using the term very loosely here) where not every single race can be every single profession, WoW and EQ2 are prime examples of this. The only difference being that the other MMO's expanded the number of professions a race can be, instead of limiting it and then give them different names.

So is it really "new"? doesn't seem like it. To me, a unique career system was that in FFXI (2 jobs at a time) because it was different from the steretypical system (one job per char) or SWG's (multiple professions/skills at the same time) or Lineage 2's system (similar to SWG, although I'm sure SWG tooktheir inspiration off of Lineage 2)

In EQ2 other than one or two classes you can play any class you want with any race or faction you want.

In WoW you can be any class you want with any race or faction you want. 

In Warhammer if you read their class list you can not.  While there is a 'similiar' archtypes the classes ARE different & do Play different.  There are no Fire Casting Mages on Destruction but there is the Sorcerer a wielder of dark magics.  There is no melee dps pet class on the destruction side like the white lion on the order side but they do have a ranged dps pet class called the squig herder.    

The basic arch types are similiar but the class, the abilities, the masteries, and play styles are not.

You should check out the Paris Videos to better understand hwo their Career / Master / Tactics systems are completely different from DAoC and WoW and even EQ2.

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Originally posted by banthis

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Originally posted by Bane82

 

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Originally posted by Hexxeity
I find it odd that they describe this as an "evolution" when it's so similar to the model used in DAoC, just taken a teeny bit further.  Of course, this system does make a lot more sense with the way tabletop Warhammer units are done.

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That's exactly my point. Not only that, but a number of MMO's have something relatively similar (using the term very loosely here) where not every single race can be every single profession, WoW and EQ2 are prime examples of this. The only difference being that the other MMO's expanded the number of professions a race can be, instead of limiting it and then give them different names.
So is it really "new"? doesn't seem like it. To me, a unique career system was that in FFXI (2 jobs at a time) because it was different from the steretypical system (one job per char) or SWG's (multiple professions/skills at the same time) or Lineage 2's system (similar to SWG, although I'm sure SWG tooktheir inspiration off of Lineage 2)

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In EQ2 other than one or two classes you can play any class you want with any race or faction you want.
In WoW you can be any class you want with any race or faction you want. 
In Warhammer if you read their class list you can not.  While there is a 'similiar' archtypes the classes ARE different & do Play different.  There are no Fire Casting Mages on Destruction but there is the Sorcerer a wielder of dark magics.  There is no melee dps pet class on the destruction side like the white lion on the order side but they do have a ranged dps pet class called the squig herder.    
The basic arch types are similiar but the class, the abilities, the masteries, and play styles are not.

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Got it, thanks. It sounds interesting, and should I decide to give this game a try, I might want to give the White Lion class a shot.

Actually no, in WoW you cannot be any class you want in every race.

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Originally posted by Hexxeity
Actually no, in WoW you cannot be any class you want in every race.

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Very true, even within the same races. Couldn't do a Draenei Druid :( Shaman was the only profession that semi-interested me from the professions they could play.

Originally posted by Bane82

 

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 ahh ok I get it... but then... if that's the case, basically they still didn't do anything really different other than allot/assign certain jobs (of which most MMO's already have out there anyway) for only certain races and just give them different names? But it still begs to ask the question... is it really "new"? DAoC is actually a great example of how it's almost a direct parallel of WAR's job system. The "vampire" profession of DAoC for example comes to mind for example.

You are right, it has been done to a point in all MMOs.  They have just taken it one step further.  There are no duplicate classes.  A Dark Elf cannot be a Black Orc or an Engineer.  These classes can only be taken by a Black Orc and a Dwarf.

If you look at the Armies of War page on the Warhammer site you can see how the classes are broke down.  Now don't get me wrong even though I say the classes are the same arch-types (tank, healer, melee dps) they aren't.  There are mechanics in place (also talked about on the Armies of War page) that differentiate the Chaos Chosen (tank) from the Dwarf Ironbreaker (also tank) and make them entirely different to play.

Originally posted by Hexxeity

I find it odd that they describe this as an "evolution" when it's so similar to the model used in DAoC, just taken a teeny bit further.  Of course, this system does make a lot more sense with the way tabletop Warhammer units are done.

isn't that what evolution is? small changes over time that eventually end up as large changes.  if each MMO changes a bit then years to come they will be completely diffrent.  Revolutionary would be a drastic change all at once, like EVE. 

Originally posted by Bane82

 

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Originally posted by Hexxeity
I find it odd that they describe this as an "evolution" when it's so similar to the model used in DAoC, just taken a teeny bit further.  Of course, this system does make a lot more sense with the way tabletop Warhammer units are done.

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That's exactly my point. Not only that, but a number of MMO's have something relatively similar (using the term very loosely here) where not every single race can be every single profession, WoW and EQ2 are prime examples of this. The only difference being that the other MMO's expanded the number of professions a race can be, instead of limiting it and then give them different names.

So is it really "new"? doesn't seem like it. To me, a unique career system was that in FFXI (2 jobs at a time) because it was different from the steretypical system (one job per char) or SWG's (multiple professions/skills at the same time) or Lineage 2's system (similar to SWG, although I'm sure SWG tooktheir inspiration off of Lineage 2)

no no no  you don't understand ...it that only Choas can be chaos classes    each race has its own classes for example you wont see a Empire human being a black guard .....in WoW blood elfs can be all other classes but shamen    but in WAR Dark elfs can only be Dark Elf classes

understand   there is no common class that every race can be..

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Originally posted by Majinash

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Originally posted by Hexxeity

I find it odd that they describe this as an "evolution" when it's so similar to the model used in DAoC, just taken a teeny bit further.  Of course, this system does make a lot more sense with the way tabletop Warhammer units are done.

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isn't that what evolution is? small changes over time that eventually end up as large changes.  if each MMO changes a bit then years to come they will be completely diffrent.  Revolutionary would be a drastic change all at once, like EVE. 

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hmmm good point.

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Originally posted by needalife214

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Originally posted by Bane82

 

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Originally posted by Hexxeity
I find it odd that they describe this as an "evolution" when it's so similar to the model used in DAoC, just taken a teeny bit further.  Of course, this system does make a lot more sense with the way tabletop Warhammer units are done.

---

 
That's exactly my point. Not only that, but a number of MMO's have something relatively similar (using the term very loosely here) where not every single race can be every single profession, WoW and EQ2 are prime examples of this. The only difference being that the other MMO's expanded the number of professions a race can be, instead of limiting it and then give them different names.
So is it really "new"? doesn't seem like it. To me, a unique career system was that in FFXI (2 jobs at a time) because it was different from the steretypical system (one job per char) or SWG's (multiple professions/skills at the same time) or Lineage 2's system (similar to SWG, although I'm sure SWG tooktheir inspiration off of Lineage 2)

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no no no  you don't understand ...it that only Choas can be chaos classes    each race has its own classes for example you wont see a Empire human being a black guard .....in WoW blood elfs can be all other classes but shamen    but in WAR Dark elfs can only be Dark Elf classes
 
understand   there is no common class that every race can be..

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LOL! You'll have to try and keep up, I already made a couple of posts after saying that I understood WAR's concept now.

That is only the start....it gets deeper still with the "masteries" within in each career. Each "career" (class) has 3 masteries. Of these, a player can choose how much or how little to delve into each. Like they may just want to specialize straight in one mastery path. Or they might want up to a point in one but then a little of another line too. It is still being worked out, but makes for some GREAT customization!

Originally posted by amorone

That is only the start....it gets deeper still with the "masteries" within in each career. Each "career" (class) has 3 masteries. Of these, a player can choose how much or how little to delve into each. Like they may just want to specialize straight in one mastery path. Or they might want up to a point in one but then a little of another line too. It is still being worked out, but makes for some GREAT customization!

Indeed, no 2 players of the same class will have identical abilities, it's almost as if they have abolished the "cookie cutter" builds of certain other mmo's. (Good job as well).