Let me start with a little background. I am fairly new to MMORPG's in the sense that I have played only one in the last five years or so and that is Runescape. After quitting this game (due an update similar to the Star Wars Galaxies update) I ventured upon this site and decided to find a game similar to Runescape. After researching a little bit, I found that the term "sandbox" was an accurate description for Runescape and I found that that was the catagory of games that I liked. After reading more I found that most sandbox MMO's are dead. They are dead , in my humble opinion, because of the lack of full out PvP and looting.

Now in Runescape there was a huge open wasteland called "The Wilderness" which was divided into levels as you went further into it and into various multi and single areas. 1 then 2 and as got deeper it increased. Now these levels told you how many levels plus or minus from your level you could attack someone.

So if you were level 80 in level 4 wilderness and saw someone who was lvl 85 you could not attack them. Now the Wilderness had a skull system. If you entered the wilderness and had no skull then you kept your three most valuable items. If you had a skull, which was acquired by attacking someone without provocation, you lost EVERYTHING you had. so basically it was full looting. Now what was so fun about this you might ask? Well it was the freedom, the challenge, and best of all, THE GLORY.

You could go in with nothing and come back a million times wealthier than before. None of you know how fun a 100 vs 100 (yes you could do 100 vs 100, rs has no instances) with full looting. It was chaos. Just going in their with two or three friends and coming out broke as hell or rich as a king gave me the most exciting moments i had ever experienced in a video game. we talked about our travels and glory in the wilderness for days afterwards and know what we all had while in there, something that almost every mmo is missing nowadays, FUN!

From my experience playing sandbox games and linier (which I admit is limited) games, I realized that MMO's were made to be sandbox games. They were made to be another RPG console game with more people but they were meant to immerse you in the world and not limit you to instances, killing, and trading. Until this current horrendous trend in MMO's is finished I am afraid I will stay away from them. Thanks for reading and I appreciate the comments.

Sad isnt it?

You know you are not the only one out there who feels this way. Hopefully, sandbox isnt fully dead, we have Earthrise and Fallen Earth which are actually both sci fi which are coming out in the next 2-3 years.

Its a sad trend and its probably here to stay. Its funny how Runescape, not following the regular mold for games, has retained so many players for being such a B rated game and not following the usual trend of the MMO's. I think Runescape says something here: that even though WoW was a big success, the sandbox system still appeals to many people, the publishers simply arent willing to invest in a title like it. Sad really, the concept of the MMO is lost.

Take a look at AoC. Being touted as an MMO, yet I hear everything about the horrible instancing. Dont get me wrong, I see its a great game, but it breaks the concept of the MMO and even brings us into further linear play. Very bad

EVE has proven that a sandbox title is still extremely viable and lucrative in 2008.

SANDBOX is the only way to go people! I love making my own way...building my own world...make my own adventures. I am willing to give a Kidney, my Left Nut, and my Right Pinky Toe for the the BiOWARE secret mmo to be not only a STAR WARS GAME but also....

............SANDBOX!

Originally posted by lkavadas

EVE has proven that a sandbox title is still extremely viable and lucrative in 2008.

Is that the only possible conclusion?  Sometimes you can be surprised.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP5B3srfe6U

Originally posted by Force_Fire

SANDBOX is the only way to go people! I love making my own way...building my own world...make my own adventures. I am willing to give a Kidney, my Left Nut, and my Right Pinky Toe for the the BiOWARE secret mmo to be not only a STAR WARS GAME but also....

............SANDBOX!

Im with you.

Sadly most people who play games aren't smart enough or creative enough to keep playing sanboxes, it seems.  Most gamers apparently need to be spoonfed levels, classes, restrictions, and loots.  Look at the 10 million cronies playing WoW. 

That game has kept these people happy for YEARS!  The industry knows this and that's why all we see are these linear games.  I would say, in fact, the problem is more the players than the developers.

Originally posted by lkavadas

EVE has proven that a sandbox title is still extremely viable and lucrative in 2008.

Look, being just profitable IS NOT ENOUGH, for the rapacious Ferengi vermin who are the moneymen.

Games need to be hands over fist, wallowing in benjamins and booze and hookers WoW profitable.

Just making money IS NOT ENOUGH.

Originally posted by Avos

Sadly most people who play games aren't smart enough or creative enough to keep playing sanboxes, it seems.  Most gamers apparently need to be spoonfed levels, classes, restrictions, and loots.  Look at the 10 million cronies playing WoW. 

That game has kept these people happy for YEARS!  The industry knows this and that's why all we see are these linear games.  I would say, in fact, the problem is more the players than the developers.

its hard to know what the new wave of players want, considering there hasnt been a decent sandbox released that is similar to SWG pre-cu, UO, or asherons call(i think im missing another). All they have played are AOC, WoW, COH and etc. Eve is a sandbox but it is a time/skill based MMO, completely different from any sandbox or linear game out or has ever been out.

  A Tale in the Desert would be one. Wurm Online.  Then there's Roma Victor and others who gives small indie games a bad name.

Originally posted by Airspell

  A Tale in the Desert would be one. Wurm Online.  Then there's Roma Victor and others who gives small indie games a bad name.

Roma Victor is really a hidden gem... or it would be, if they weren't so indy. The idea of the game is just amazing. Its the closest thing to a world simulation MMO that I've ever seen. Everything is skill based, living economy, living world, there are no random camps of monsters, you get better at combat by training with a guild, fighting enemies. There are bears and wolves to hunt in the wild, but they are finite and dangerous and reproduce on their own. I only tried the game once or twice, but I was very impressed.

Sadly, they lack the funds to make the game as good as it could be, as they are a bunch of historians/nerds.

Bad name my ass.

Originally posted by goobama

Let me start with a little background. I am fairly new to MMORPG's in the sense that I have played only one in the last five years or so and that is Runescape. After quitting this game (due an update similar to the Star Wars Galaxies update) I ventured upon this site and decided to find a game similar to Runescape. After researching a little bit, I found that the term "sandbox" was an accurate description for Runescape and I found that that was the catagory of games that I liked. After reading more I found that most sandbox MMO's are dead. They are dead , in my humble opinion, because of the lack of full out PvP and looting.

Now in Runescape there was a huge open wasteland called "The Wilderness" which was divided into levels as you went further into it and into various multi and single areas. 1 then 2 and as got deeper it increased. Now these levels told you how many levels plus or minus from your level you could attack someone.

So if you were level 80 in level 4 wilderness and saw someone who was lvl 85 you could not attack them. Now the Wilderness had a skull system. If you entered the wilderness and had no skull then you kept your three most valuable items. If you had a skull, which was acquired by attacking someone without provocation, you lost EVERYTHING you had. so basically it was full looting. Now what was so fun about this you might ask? Well it was the freedom, the challenge, and best of all, THE GLORY.

You could go in with nothing and come back a million times wealthier than before. None of you know how fun a 100 vs 100 (yes you could do 100 vs 100, rs has no instances) with full looting. It was chaos. Just going in their with two or three friends and coming out broke as hell or rich as a king gave me the most exciting moments i had ever experienced in a video game. we talked about our travels and glory in the wilderness for days afterwards and know what we all had while in their, something that almost every mmo is missing nowadays, FUN!

From my experience playing sandbox games and linier (which I admit is limited) games, I realized that MMO's were made to be sandbox games. They were made to be another RPG console game with more people but they were meant to immerse you in the world and not limit you to instances, killing, and trading. Until this current horrendous trend in MMO's is finished I am afraid I will stay away from them. Thanks for reading and I appreciate the comments.

 

First of all, you are only looking at Sandbox game with a combatant's view, but in reality, a great sandbox MMO would have all aspect (combat and non-combat) designed into the system to function.

So those who enjoy killing stuff can do so, while those who just want to make stuff and gain wealth, or doing various things to entertain themselves and others can do so as well.  Of course there must be a form of inter-dependency between both style in order to keep the sandbox world function in a way where players can play "together" in some form or another.

MMO is truly a great genre for sandbox games to grow, but one of the major issue is not just having it out on the market, but it takes a truly special breed of developers that UNDERSTAND the basic ideas behind sandbox games' inter-dependency systems to keep the game going.

Originally posted by SignusM

Originally posted by Airspell

  A Tale in the Desert would be one. Wurm Online.  Then there's Roma Victor and others who gives small indie games a bad name.

 

Roma Victor is really a hidden gem... or it would be, if they weren't so indy. The idea of the game is just amazing. Its the closest thing to a world simulation MMO that I've ever seen. Everything is skill based, living economy, living world, there are no random camps of monsters, you get better at combat by training with a guild, fighting enemies. There are bears and wolves to hunt in the wild, but they are finite and dangerous and reproduce on their own. I only tried the game once or twice, but I was very impressed.

Sadly, they lack the funds to make the game as good as it could be, as they are a bunch of historians/nerds.

Bad name my ass.

its a broken game that has a playerbase of less then 300, if it was good it would spread through word of mouth. The concept is great but the devs failed to deliver, and the devs already stated the game is pretty much a hobby for them and not a job. Funds is only 1 thing on a long list on what they lack.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

OP guess what?

World of Warcraft is so much better...  just read on .....

Because it AWARDS players and don't punish them with broken system.

I've had your experience in Runescape a thousand times over  in Wow by winning arena's, giving me honor to better my character.

EVERY DAY my friends are on the phone to discuss our victories of last night (and defeats). The yelling and the frustrated smashing on the keyboards when valuable honor points could be lost, because just that one spell or defense came a fraction too late.

But the difference in QUALITY: PvP in Wow with its thousands and thousands of arena fights each day - analysed on a micro scale by Blizzard (and hundreds of supporting websites), makes PvP  in Wow a cross between art and statistical analysis.

These data serve to balance further 5vs5 and 3vs3 fights to UNNKOWN hights in class evolution. UP to THE 0.01 figures. Meaning any other MMORPG lacking these studies are almost meaningless. AND these analysis are being used in BG's and the upcoming world PvP expansion.

Difference in MOTIVATION: In Real Life there are so many people who work hard and NEVER get a thank you or are rewarded. WOW rewards its players and don't punish them. Even when you are a beginner, or a not so gifted talented player, you are rewarded by the system. Never severly punished. Capice ?

Difference in CHOICE: This styyle above is but ONE of the many end game options TBC has for its players. About a dozen other possibities exists in putting up your character, just as good or just as epic as the guy who likes raiding PVE content 8 days a week. It's but one of the MANY playings possible...

The system you describe is passé, because in all honesty beating up - in the world -  a LONE non balanced character 4 levels lower with the aid of friends is too amateurish to even describe

PVP in Wow is now a matter of 0.01 math stats and PURE skill in the 200.000 dollars tournaments (with free equal gear and chosen stats on the characters).

Those who say Wow is for kids have NO idea what the evolution of Wow was these last 18 months. Every new MMORPG is a amateurish at best compared to the mathematical analysis and design Blizzard invested in this game.

Gone are the days of amateurish ganking with uncontrolled and undesigned stats and be proud of it. Of course if you still think  "Conan" ... you are really in a prehistoric cave of MMORPG's.

 

 

 

 

you .... did ...... not ..... just bring WoW into a sandbox thread ........................

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by tvalentine

 

you .... did ...... not ..... just bring WoW into a sandbox thread ........................

 

Of course becaue WOW is the only real sandbox game.

You character in the end game IS the sandbox.

The rest is prehistoric rambling of old age MMORPG's.

are crafted items better then loot items? Can you own your own house? Are there instances? WoW is NOT a sandbox, once you hit the endgame you run the same thing over and over and over and over and over. Or if you pvp you run instanced battlegrounds that has a limit on players. World pvp is non existant unless your a class that can go invis so you can gank people. And NOTHING in WoW affects the world, it affects YOUR CHARACTER. Unlike Sandboxs where if you take a city or destroy an opposing factions base it affects more then 1 person.

EDIT: Sandboxes give you the freedom of choice not to run the same thing over and over and to go out and do something different, in WoW once you hit the last level, you sit in one of the major cities, battlegrounds, or the outlands ..... in sandboxes the whole world is your hangout.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by tvalentine

 

are crafted items better then loot items? Can you own your own house? Are there instances? WoW is NOT a sandbox, once you hit the endgame you run the same thing over and over and over and over and over. Or if you pvp you run instanced battlegrounds that has a limit on players. World pvp is non existant unless your a class that can go invis so you can gank people. And NOTHING in WoW affects the world, it affects YOUR CHARACTER. Unlike Sandboxs where if you take a city or destroy an opposing factions base it affects more then 1 person. Move Along.

 

Yes. Because Blizzards constantly updates the different chains in the game. Even now crafted weapons are on equal basis with the last dungeons. But apparently you don't know that.

Apparently you have NO idea what TBC is about past patch 2.3. Complete FREEDOM of HOW you play is the best sandbox example you can have.

You really ARE thinking of Wow 2006 aren't you? Well the end game completely changed. Including crafting, including arena and it rewards.

And you did NOT repsond to my remarks btw.

Analysis primes rambling and day dreaming.

 

Crafted items are NOT on par with SSC.TK, or BT. And yes i do know, i play the game. In Wow your class is either a tank/healer/dps there is no entertainer or Crafter class (another thing sandboxes have). And you say Complete freedom .... what freedom? To do instance or to do BGs ..... or ........ well thats it unless you wanna just sit in a city and socialize. I didnt respond to your OP because i didnt read it, i didnt have to. WoW isnt a Sandbox, no matter how you try and explain it. I'll respond to your remarks when you respond to mine in my first post .... it should be easier because it didnt take me 3+ paragraphs to explain my point.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

OP guess what?

World of Warcraft is so much better...  just read on .....

Because it AWARDS players and don't punish them with broken systems.

I've had your experience in Runescape a thousand times over  in Wow by winning arena's, giving me honor to better my character.

EVERY DAY my friends are on the phone to discuss our victories of last night (and defeats). The yelling and the frustrated smashing on the keyboards when valuable honor points could be lost, because just that one spell or defense came a fraction too late.

ummm how is this related to a sandbox type game? You didnt get off a spell in time .... to bad, it happens in every game.

 

But the difference in QUALITY: PvP in Wow with its thousands and thousands of arena fights each day - analysed on a micro scale by Blizzard (and hundreds of supporting websites), makes PvP  in Wow a cross between art and statistical analysis.

2v2, 3v3, 5v5........ where are the 80vs80 battles? Arena is on such a "micro" scale that it doesnt even compare to the days of UO or SWG Pre-cu

 

These data serve to balance further 5vs5 and 3vs3 fights to UNNKOWN hights in class evolution. UP to THE 0.01 figures. Meaning any other MMORPG lacking these studies are almost meaningless. AND these analysis are being used in BG's and the upcoming world PvP expansion.

ok .... balanced classes? What game doesnt try to balance classes?

 

Difference in MOTIVATION: In Real Life there are so many people who work hard and NEVER get a thank you or are rewarded. WOW rewards its players and don't punish them. Even when you are a beginner, or a not so gifted talented player, you are rewarded by the system. Never severly punished. Capice ?

a game with no risk ...... again not like a sandbox......

 

Difference in CHOICE: This styyle above is but ONE of the many end game options TBC has for its players. About a dozen other possibities exists in putting up your character, just as good or just as epic as the guy who likes raiding PVE content 8 days a week. It's but one of the MANY playings possible...

one of many playings possible ...... what are the other "playings"? I play the game and only know of Running instances and doing BGs/Arena

 

The system you describe is passé, because in all honesty beating up - in the world -  a LONE non balanced character 4 levels lower with the aid of friends is too amateurish to even describe

PVP in Wow is now a matter of 0.01 math stats and PURE skill in the 200.000 dollars tournaments (with free equal gear and chosen stats on the characters).

ummm .... ok? What does this have to do with sandbox games?

 

Those who say Wow is for kids have NO idea what the evolution of Wow was these last 18 months. Every new MMORPG is amateurish at best compared to the mathematical analysis and design Blizzard invested in this game.

again, this has nothing to do with sandbox games .......

 

Gone are the days of amateurish ganking with uncontrolled and undesigned stats and be proud of it. Of course if you still think  "Conan" ... you are really in a prehistoric cave of MMORPG's.

 the only run ins i had with gank squads were in SWG pre-cu, but i was flagged for pvp so it was expected. And AOC IS NOT A SANDBOX.....

 

 

 

well i read it, and it was so simple to respond to, i figured i would do this real quick and get it out of the way.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

Originally posted by tvalentine

 

Crafted items are NOT on par with SSC.TK, or BT. And yes i do know, i play the game. In Wow your class is either a tank/healer/dps there is no entertainer or Crafter class (another thing sandboxes have). And you say Complete freedom .... what freedom? To do instance or to do BGs ..... or ........ well thats it unless you wanna just sit in a city and socialize. I didnt respond to your OP because i didnt read it, i didnt have to. WoW isnt a Sandbox, no matter how you try and explain it. I'll respond to your remarks when you respond to mine in my first post .... it should be easier because it didnt take me 3+ paragraphs to explain my point.

 

 

Sorry to prove you're wrong.

Crafted gear that is BETTER or on equal gear than the dungeons you mentioned...

Lionheart executionar: double handed sword. ...

http://eu.wowarmory.com/search.xml?fl%5Bsource%5D=all&fl%5Btype%5D=weapons&fl%5BusbleBy%5D=all&fl%5Bslot%5D=all&fl%5BsubTp%5D=all&fl%5BrqrMin%5D=&fl%5BrqrMax%5D=&fl%5Brrt%5D=ec&advOptName=none&fl%5Bandor%5D=and&searchType=items&fl%5BadvOpt%5D=none

 

http://eu.wowarmory.com/item-info.xml?i=28430

made by a ... Blacksmith -weapon specialisation.

Maces also....

Apperantly you don't know very good Wow ...

So your arguement as there are NO crafters is ... well make your own conclusions.

That's SOOO nice about WOW btw.

 

Just check on the armory and HUP you see the answers ....

What a professional POLISHED game.

your first link is broken for me.
 

so lets compare some crafted items with loot items ...... BTW Crafted and instance items are BoP and cannot be sold to other players after they have been equipped ..... again not like a sandbox (nothing is BoP).

http://www.wowarmory.com/item-info.xml?i=28430 lionheart executioner compared to :

http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=34247

http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=30902

http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=35015

http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=29993

http://www.wowarmory.com/item-info.xml?i=28442 - stormherald compared to:

http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=32332

http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=33663

not to mention you need to RUN INSTANCES to get badges of honor to get Nether Vortexs, unless you buy them from the AH.

WoW is so far from sandbox you can possible come. Sandbox means that you have a big virtual world and a big selection of tools you can use, or chose to not use. It´s about freedom to play the game in any way you want (in the ideal sandbox you don´t even have to pick up a weapon to have meaningful things to do). In World of Warcraft you cant even be a crafter without also being a fighter. There is strict rules to everything you do, and you cant have strict rules and total freedom at the same time. The only real freedom you have in WoW is where you want to kill stuff and what.

Originally posted by Zorndorf

OP guess what?

World of Warcraft is so much better...  just read on .....

Because it AWARDS players and don't punish them with broken systems.

I've had your experience in Runescape a thousand times over  in Wow by winning arena's, giving me honor to better my character.

EVERY DAY my friends are on the phone to discuss our victories of last night (and defeats). The yelling and the frustrated smashing on the keyboards when valuable honor points could be lost, because just that one spell or defense came a fraction too late.

But the difference in QUALITY: PvP in Wow with its thousands and thousands of arena fights each day - analysed on a micro scale by Blizzard (and hundreds of supporting websites), makes PvP  in Wow a cross between art and statistical analysis.

These data serve to balance further 5vs5 and 3vs3 fights to UNNKOWN hights in class evolution. UP to THE 0.01 figures. Meaning any other MMORPG lacking these studies are almost meaningless. AND these analysis are being used in BG's and the upcoming world PvP expansion.

Difference in MOTIVATION: In Real Life there are so many people who work hard and NEVER get a thank you or are rewarded. WOW rewards its players and don't punish them. Even when you are a beginner, or a not so gifted talented player, you are rewarded by the system. Never severly punished. Capice ?

Difference in CHOICE: This styyle above is but ONE of the many end game options TBC has for its players. About a dozen other possibities exists in putting up your character, just as good or just as epic as the guy who likes raiding PVE content 8 days a week. It's but one of the MANY playings possible...

The system you describe is passé, because in all honesty beating up - in the world -  a LONE non balanced character 4 levels lower with the aid of friends is too amateurish to even describe

PVP in Wow is now a matter of 0.01 math stats and PURE skill in the 200.000 dollars tournaments (with free equal gear and chosen stats on the characters).

Those who say Wow is for kids have NO idea what the evolution of Wow was these last 18 months. Every new MMORPG is amateurish at best compared to the mathematical analysis and design Blizzard invested in this game.

Gone are the days of amateurish ganking with uncontrolled and undesigned stats and be proud of it. Of course if you still think  "Conan" ... you are really in a prehistoric cave of MMORPG's.

 

 

 

 

...  WoW is NOT a sandbox game for the following reason:

1.) Your character is locked in whatever class it is and cannot be changed (where is the FREEDOM in that?)  If you bring up the idea of making alts, you just fail in the concept of FREEDOM IN CHARACTER DESIGN... that's single character, not multiple.  Not to mention if you stray from the "norm" of character design, you get shun upon and majority would not group with you...

2.) Your character cannot become a crafter-only character (you can try to prove me wrong, but the fact is that WoW design these professions as a sub-professions to the class system, so you cannot have the freedom to be just a crafter.)

3.)  By the way, in theory sandbox shouldn't use character level as indicator of power.  This is actually a bad design which separate the new players and the veterans (unless you have veterans running newbies through instances and whatnot...).  But that does not happen often.  Most lvl 70s are running raids, heroic instances, and queuing up arena to get that newer, better gear.  And if you are a new player, and your friend is a high level character, you can't really "play" together whenever you are online due to there is NO INCENTIVE for the higher level to help the lower level other than some pride and/or helping a friend.

4.) Most sandbox MMO, if not all, would have a lot of functions designed for community gaming (incorporate combat characters with the non-combat characters, etc...).  But WoW focus on your own achievement, and for "community" WoW focus on guild progression in high-end raids.  Not saying that doesn't work, but it isn't what sandbox MMO is about.

5.) Blizzard is good at what they do, I agree.  But they do not make Sandbox games.

EDIT: my damn spelling... too tired right now...