I remember a time when most gamers knew this.  You'd get a discussion on an EQ or UO board about removing some kind of 'bad' part of the game, and then you would have some people explain why the 'bad' part of the game was there.  A good rundown of the positive things this 'bad' part of the game added, and what would happen if it were removed.  And then most posters and sometimes even the OP would be like 'yeah ok that makes sense'.

One good example in real life is exercise.  Most people friggin hate it, myself included, but what happens if you take it away?  Exercise, while painful in the short term, has an exorbitant amount of long term benefit.  Exercise provides weight loss, cardio strengthening, bone mass increase, increased metabolism, strengthening of the immune system, lowering of bad collesterol, etc.

The same can be said of many  things in MMOs including:

Harsher death penalties

Regional banks

Reduced ease of travel

No global chat

No PvP protected areas

And the list could go on and on.

I really feel as time goes on, more and more gamers can't see past the immediate gain enough to understand the full set of changes that take place when you tweak a system.  The number of threads where I find almost no forethought or sense of logical analysis is just staggering, and even to the point I don't even post a reply because I feel the OP is so dillusional or unable to think through to a conclusion I don't even bother trying to put the reasons out there.

Any of the older gamers out there (or hey, newer gamers too) that feel the same way?

I agree. What dose not kill you makes you stronger. Had something like that in mind but am to bad with words to write it down. You have my vote.

I agree with most of what you say except for the issue of no pvp protected areas. I personally am not a big fan of pvp and don't think it should be forced on anyone. To me DAoC had the best  method of dealing with this.

Originally posted by karat76

I agree with most of what you say except for the issue of no pvp protected areas. I personally am not a big fan of pvp and don't think it should be forced on anyone. To me DAoC had the best  method of dealing with this.

I can see this point very well.  In UO I was not a fan of pvp, but the big difference was I had a REALLY good chance of escape if I was prepared (oh crap recall rune).  That's what made it work IMO.  In that kind of environment, even things like mining can be fun due to the added adrenaline rush of fight or flight.  lol

I am probably too young to be considered an "older" gamer, but I do agree.

In this day and age, a number of people are claiming that the generations are getting dumber. I frequently hear arguements that technology advocates this by making the generation more technology dependent, or that gratification has become very easy for these younger generations, and so they become impatient and unable to see the benefits of something like a Harsh Death Penalty, or no safe areas from PvP.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2007/10/24/notes102407.DTL <- here is just one article that will discuss this.

Now, I personally believe that it isn't they are getting dumber, (since IQ test scores keep rising) but that they are not required to KNOW information anymore, just know where to FIND it. This still doesn't change that a repercussion of this is that people want instant gratification NOW, and don't want to wait for it. You can find some studies on that too... (people who delay gratification typically wind up being managers and "higher" up in society) Todays market consists, predominantly, of people who are unable or unwilling to delay gratification and want things easy.

The market, however, isn't here to teach these people to be better, it is merely here to sell a product. So they must adapt their products to the people with the money, which would be the current "dumber" generations.

Yes it is sad, I too have come to enjoy open PvP, banks in different areas, and long open worlds that make it hard to travel across...

I disagree.

You have to learn, work hard, challenge, blah etc in real life.
For me in virtual life it is all about shallow fun.

You cannot mess real life with virtual life. If you do, ...mmh my english is too weak to explain it without offense.

Harsh Death Penalties:  What is harsh?  Are we talking XP loss, item loss, item damage eventual distruction?  XP loss, no terrible idea.  Item loss or distruction is workable better for the economy too.

Regional Bank: What do you mean?

Reduced ease of Travel: UO had moongates and recall still was one of the "harder" games.  I'm all for adding difficulty but having to waste time running isn't difficult.

Global Chat: Yeah I turn it off usually.

No PvP protected area: Oh ok I see this is a if you not a leet pvper then you like easy mode. 

What needs to change is this mentality from developers and gamers a like that getting to end game (raids, pvp, or whatever) is the end all be all.  UO was hard to master but anyone could play it.  You didn't need to raid or pvp for hours straight to be good you just had to work at it.  Took a very long time to gm a skill some more so then others but when you did you had a feeling of accomplishment.  What need to come back is the challenge getting from point a to b not this masochistic I need pain to feel alive stuff.

Originally posted by LiquidWolf

Now, I personally believe that it isn't they are getting dumber, (since IQ test scores keep rising) but that they are not required to KNOW information anymore, just know where to FIND it. This still doesn't change that a repercussion of this is that people want instant gratification NOW, and don't want to wait for it. You can find some studies on that too... (people who delay gratification typically wind up being managers and "higher" up in society) Todays market consists predominantly of people who are unable or unwillilng to delay gratification and want things easy.

There's a big difference between knowing WHY something is the way it is, and just knowing the answer.

Originally posted by Herodes

I disagree.

You have to learn, work hard, challenge, blah etc in real life.
For me in virtual life it is all about shallow fun.

You cannot mess real life with virtual life. If you do, ...mmh my english is too weak to explain it without offense.

I agree with Herodes. I play games to be games. As soon as they start becoming a chore or work I can do, well, er... chores or work. And get a real benefit out of it. As someone said, no pain no gain. And the only tangible "gain" I'm going to get is from actually applying effort to my life.

For a game, the only gain that I am looking for is enjoyement. Oh sure, the things that the OP mentions might add deeper gamepaly but to what lvl only the individual can decide. And quite frankly, though I don't mean any insult, this just sounds like another "games need to go back to the old days" thread.

Again, the problem there is that it was a smaller group playing such games. Now that you have many, many more people playing, people who have lives who would think it ridiculous to apply any more than 30 minutes a night or every other night, it only stands to reason that some of the "older ways" are going to be altered.

Funny enough, many of the old games are still around but players don't want to play them. In some cases they say they changed. I wonder why they changed. Did they change because publishers got greedy or did they change because they just couldn't compete in an ever expanding market.

expanding on this:

The same can be said of many  things in MMOs including:

Harsher death penalties
only good to the point where the player realizes he/she doesn't have the time to make up for the death pentalites... time to do something else

Regional banks
sure why not

Reduced ease of travel
Agreed as there is land to be experienced. However if a player has to constantly travel for 30+ minutes and he/she doesn't have the time... well, see #1

No global chat
Agreed because I don't want to hear you guys. Seriously, who cares what you had for dinner.

No PvP protected areas
Because all those people who spend good money but don't want pvp will continue spending that good money. This falls under the "everyone wants the same thing" idea which you must know is wrong.

Originally posted by LiquidWolf

I am probably too young to be considered an "older" gamer, but I do agree.

In this day and age, a number of people are claiming that the generations are getting dumber. I frequently hear arguements that technology advocates this by making the generation more technology dependent, or that gratification has become very easy for these younger generations, and so they become impatient and unable to see the benefits of something like a Harsh Death Penalty, or no safe areas from PvP.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2007/10/24/notes102407.DTL <- here is just one article that will discuss this.

Now, I personally believe that it isn't they are getting dumber, (since IQ test scores keep rising) but that they are not required to KNOW information anymore, just know where to FIND it. This still doesn't change that a repercussion of this is that people want instant gratification NOW, and don't want to wait for it. You can find some studies on that too... (people who delay gratification typically wind up being managers and "higher" up in society) Todays market consists predominantly of people who are unable or unwillilng to delay gratification and want things easy.

The market, however, isn't here to teach these people to be better, it is merely here to sell a product. So they must adapt their products to the people with the money, which would be the current "dumber" generations.

Yes it is sad, I too have come to enjoy open PvP, banks in different areas, and long open worlds that make it hard to travel across...

The newer generation's IQ has been on the rise but what seems to be lacking is common sense or "street smarts" if you will.  Also along with the new generation (gamer or people in general) comes demand of service.  No one takes assistance for granted anymore it just something that should be there and if its not look out.

Originally posted by Herodes

I disagree.

You have to learn, work hard, challenge, blah etc in real life.
For me in virtual life it is all about shallow fun.

You cannot mess real life with virtual life. If you do, ...mmh my english is too weak to explain it without offense.

Well and I think that is just it... many of the older gamers see these worlds as MORE than just games... to many they offer a sense of achievement, a place to accomplish goals and meaningful tasks with friends.

The market has changed to fit the "shallow fun" playerbase, and to many of the older generation enjoyed the struggle of the game to be the best. This is no longer the case, things are less meaningful now.

I see it as the long climb up a mountain that takes months of training and equipment that must be purchased and understood. Once at the top of the mountain, a person who struggled through the climb, the training, and the work to afford the equipment, is met with a beautiful vision of what the world looks like at the top. He gets to see himself having achieved something great.

Then he gets to watch a helicopter land nearby with a group of people who wanted to see the same sight, but didn't want to work that hard for it... and yet never will appreciate it like he does.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Harsher death penalties
only good to the point where the player realizes he/she doesn't have the time to make up for the death pentalites... time to do something else

Reduced ease of travel
Agreed as there is land to be experienced. However if a player has to constantly travel for 30+ minutes and he/she doesn't have the time... well, see #1

When you lower the common denominator, you lower the fun, IMO.  Harsh death penalty just means I need to get some skill under my belt and not run around with no patience.  Harsh death penalty makes everyone a better player.

Same thing really for online FPS like CoD4.  Sure when I'm a noob I get rocked by the better players, but playing against very skilled people makes me much stronger as well.  If you play vs weak people all the time, your skill will cap much lower than if you played with awesome people all the time.

Real life experience here.  I used to play Magic the card game exclusively with people from UC Davis.  I won some.  I lost some.  Always people were thinking of new card combos etc.  Then I went to play in this hick town Woodland, and I couldn't find a single person who could give me a run for my money, because the skill pool there was horrible.  Most people were like 'wow I never thought to try that'.  After a few weeks of playing there, everyone had MUCH better decks, by playing me.

So death penalty is more about advancing the skills of the player, and at the same time really helps with the whole excitement of the danger!  =)

This is complete BS.

We are talking about games here, guilty pleasures, not healthy habits. There is nothing "good" in the long run in games, there is only entertainment at the moment.

Originally posted by nethervoid

 

Originally posted by Sovrath

Harsher death penalties
only good to the point where the player realizes he/she doesn't have the time to make up for the death pentalites... time to do something else

Reduced ease of travel
Agreed as there is land to be experienced. However if a player has to constantly travel for 30+ minutes and he/she doesn't have the time... well, see #1

I think what you're talking about here is really a serious problem not only in the gaming world but in real life.  Let's make stuff that everyone can complete means that while the morons are satisfied, those who excel are bored.  Look at modern day american schools.  Friggin easy street.  Let's not give Jonny a C because it will make him feel bad.  Boo friggin hoo.  Maybe it will make him wise up to the fact he's a moron for not studying.

 

When you lower the common denominator, you lower the fun, IMO.  Harsh death penalty just means I need to get some skill under my belt and not run around with no patience.  Harsh death penalty makes everyone a better player.

Same thing really for online FPS like CoD4.  Sure when I'm a noob I get rocked by the better players, but playing against very skilled people makes me much stronger as well.  If you play vs weak people all the time, your skill will cap much lower than if you played with awesome people all the time.

Real life experience here.  I used to play Magic the card game exclusively with people from UC Davis.  I won some.  I lost some.  Always people were thinking of new card combos etc.  Then I went to play in this hick town Woodland, and I couldn't find a single person who could give me a run for my money, because the skill pool there was horrible.  Most people were like 'wow I never thought to try that'.  After a few weeks of playing there, everyone had MUCH better decks, by playing me.

So death penalty is more about advancing the skills of the player, and at the same time really helps with the whole excitement of the danger!  =)

Let's say there is a harsh death penalty.

The person who only has 30 minutes to play but dies once is going to be irked if they have a huge xp loss (and perhaps dropping items) and can't make it up.

The person who has 7 hours and dies 5 times and can play 7 hours per day won't be phased at all.

If a person has to travel 30 minutes and only has an hour to play then he is going to do something else. If a person has to travel 30 minutes but has 7 hours to play then no big deal.

It has nothing to do with skill and quite a bit to do with time to spend playing "video games'. They are games. Sorry but they don't matter. Not a whit. "real people" laugh at people who "waste" their time playing online games.

Heck, I met a guy a few weeks ago who said he was a bit of a gamer. I said I was as well. He asked what I played and I said "lineage 2 (among other things)". He said "oh hell, I don't play that online fantasy shit it takes too much time".

So now that we have more people actually discovering the "good stuff" in online games developers now have to figure out what works for "regular people" who doont' have the time or the inclination to deal with the "fantasy shit that takes too much time".

Originally posted by LiquidWolf

 

I see it as the long climb up a mountain that takes months of training and equipment that must be purchased and understood. Once at the top of the mountain, a person who struggled through the climb, the training, and the work to afford the equipment, is met with a beautiful vision of what the world looks like at the top. He gets to see himself having achieved something great.

Then he gets to watch a helicopter land nearby with a group of people who wanted to see the same sight, but didn't want to work that hard for it... and yet never will appreciate it like he does.

Great analogy.  I believe you are right and this is how the issues are viewed in the MMO of today.

reigional banks are awesome for crafters... if crafting matters anyways... Obviously wouldn't work in an evergrind or wow game play style.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

This is complete BS.

We are talking about games here, guilty pleasures, not healthy habits. There is nothing "good" in the long run in games, there is only entertainment at the moment.

 

 

The entertainment of each generation changes, and you can find gamers who probably remember a time without television...

I'm fairly certain science fiction or fantasy literature had someone say the exact same thing about it...

You are trivialising something that one generation probably saw as amazing and never thought would be possible...

A portable phone? How many channels? No more rabbit ears for the Boob Tube? What's next... being able to get a portable computer?

I believe few young people fully appreciate the age we are in...

Originally posted by Locklain

Originally posted by LiquidWolf

 

I see it as the long climb up a mountain that takes months of training and equipment that must be purchased and understood. Once at the top of the mountain, a person who struggled through the climb, the training, and the work to afford the equipment, is met with a beautiful vision of what the world looks like at the top. He gets to see himself having achieved something great.

Then he gets to watch a helicopter land nearby with a group of people who wanted to see the same sight, but didn't want to work that hard for it... and yet never will appreciate it like he does.

Great analogy.  I believe you are right and this is how the issues are viewed in the MMO of today.

yes but what he is completely missing is that the experience for him is the training the excercise, the accumulation of the equipment and then the journey to the view. That is what he signed up for and what he wanted. He could have taken the helicopter to see the view.

also, and this seems a bit heavey handed to mention but I'll throw it in there, I know people who would love to climb a mountain and see the view but there physical state just will never allow it. The view is still beautiful no matter what and no matter how you got there.

to say that because someone worked at it that in a sense he deserves it more is wrong. The view exists no matter what. The experience of climbing solely belongs to the climber and that is his reward.

Originally posted by Sovrath

 

Originally posted by Locklain

Originally posted by LiquidWolf

 

I see it as the long climb up a mountain that takes months of training and equipment that must be purchased and understood. Once at the top of the mountain, a person who struggled through the climb, the training, and the work to afford the equipment, is met with a beautiful vision of what the world looks like at the top. He gets to see himself having achieved something great.

Then he gets to watch a helicopter land nearby with a group of people who wanted to see the same sight, but didn't want to work that hard for it... and yet never will appreciate it like he does.

Great analogy.  I believe you are right and this is how the issues are viewed in the MMO of today.

 

yes but what he is completely missing is that the experience for him is the training the excercise, the accumulation of the equipment and then the journey to the view. That is what he signed up for and what he wanted. He could have taken the helicopter to see the view.

also, and this seems a bit heavey handed to mention but I'll throw it in there, I know people who would love to climb a mountain and see the view but there physical state just will never allow it. The view is still beautiful no matter what and no matter how you got there.

to say that because someone worked at it that in a sense he deserves it more is wrong. The view exists no matter what. The experience of climbing solely belongs to the climber and that is his reward.

Oh I understand, but the problem is many people are beginning to notice that market is no longer around and that nothing is around the facilitate that desire anymore. The old spots are changing so that they are no longer useable even.

The climbing spots have been roped off and signs have been posted saying: No admittance. Danger!

Bars have been put in place around the scenic sight to prevent people from falling off, and an elevator is being installed for those that don't want to fly or take the chair lift.

Originally posted by LiquidWolf

 

Oh I understand, but the problem is many people are beginning to notice that market is no longer around and that nothing is around the facilitate that desire anymore.

 

The climbing spots have been roped off and signs have been posted saying: No admittance. Danger!

Bars have been put in place around the scenic sight to prevent people from falling off, and an elevator is being installed for those that are afraid to fly or take the chair lift.

I think the market isn't around anymore because the population who wants such games is too small to support it. Oh sure, they were sufficient when there were a handful of games out there. But how many games can the market bear when they only have a small amount of the original people to play them.

Not many.

So what does a game company do? Do they just say, "oh well, let's just develop software for word processing instead"? No, they say, "well, what about the people who want to play games but don't want to spend hours per day"? "maybe we can develope a game like that".

And then they do and they are wildly successful and  then some of the "hardcore" players realize that they can no longer play hours per day because "guess what" they actually have grown up and have families and jobs with more work and they develop other interests, etc. So they go to the casual games as well.

Now you have even fewer "hardcore" players to support them.