This gets argued about very frequently around here.  So, lets get to the bottom of it, shall we?  In the blue corner, weighing in at 800lbs, we have the folks that say 7+ years.  In the red corner, weighing in at 99lbs, we have those that say 5 years or less. Who is correct?  Was the game scrapped when Aventurine took over, and a whole 'new' game developed?  Lets let them speak for themselves.  And to be fair, lets hear what they said AT THE TIME.  (Not years later when they were trying to cover their ass)

Status of Darkfall on 9/30/03, from Tasos:

http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=5542

So...they scrapped the game and started over in mid 2003, eh?  Damn these guys are fast - look, they are already in 'tech beta'!  Obviously, they did NOT start over in 2003.

How about 1/24/04:

http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=7202

4/26/04:

http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=8495

Lets hear from the core team, 5/4/05:

http://mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/setview/features/loadFeature/86/gameID/4/

This game has been in continuous dev since Razorwax started back in 2000.  Hopefully, this settles the argument once and for all.

(I wont even go into all the promises to be more open, give more info, communicate more often, show videos, start beta.)

Thanks to ghoul31 for digging up the links!

Originally posted by Theodgrim

This gets argued about very frequently around here.  So, lets get to the bottom of it, shall we?  In the blue corner, weighing in at 800lbs, we have the folks that say 7+ years.  In the red corner, weighing in at 99lbs, we have those that say 5 years or less. Who is correct?  Was the game scrapped when Aventurine took over, and a whole 'new' game developed?  Lets let them speak for themselves.  And to be fair, lets hear what they said AT THE TIME.  (Not years later when they were trying to cover their ass)

Status of Darkfall on 9/30/03, from Tasos:

http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=5542

So...they scrapped the game and started over in mid 2003, eh?  Damn these guys are fast - look, they are already in 'tech beta'!  Obviously, they did NOT start over in 2003.

They provide here the info that they just implemented the "third person perspective" 

What shows they were a bit too "optimistic" 2003...but aware of the fact that "and we don't think that that's the kind of beta everyone has been looking forward to." about the build 18 months before...and the current they working on to make it better.

That shows that they realized something had to be changed  .....and performing  changes

Dunno how you read it...but i see references  to  a change ...and because Tasos avoided to mention changes in responsibilities it doesn't mean they weren't any in management beside development  too... 

How about 1/24/04:

http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=7202

Thats a long list being working on. And proofs busy development....

4/26/04:

http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=8495

Development continues....

Lets hear from the core team, 5/4/05:

http://mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/setview/features/loadFeature/86/gameID/4/

This game has been in continuous dev since Razorwax started back in 2000.  Hopefully, this settles the argument once and for all.

 

"Razorwax started working on Darkfall in Norway with four developers who are now part of Aventurine in Greece."

So the 4  developers of Razorwax  becomes new management.  Whatever Razorwax thought is ready for release got an rework...

(I wont even go into all the promises to be more open, give more info, communicate more often, show videos, start beta.)

Thanks to ghoul31 for digging up the links!

Yeah - the option for third person was a CHANGE.  The game was originally going to be first person.  Come on...you dont seriously think they scrapped the game in mid 2003, yet started tech beta on Sept 2 of the same year.  Even you must admit that just isnt possible.  As far as the build notes...have you never been in a beta before?  Nothing unusual.

EDIT: Let me be more clear.  They obviously didnt scrap the old project and start over - they were building on it.  You cant start over from scratch and get to even a 'tech beta' in 3 months.  Modifications are EXPECTED.  Changes are EXPECTED.  That does not make it a new game or restart the dev clock.

The length of time its taken so far is about 9 years (from 1999). But for me the issue isnt length of time, its the cost involved in those 9 years. I wouldnt even like to guess how much money has been spent. On developers wages alone it must be massive (typical salary for a developer is what? £45k ? They must have some understanding investors, who have put their faith in a niche market game.

Props to them if they ever get any investment back.

They don't have investors. No investors would be stupid enough to invest in something like this anymore at this point.

They're getting money from some kind of special greek company start up grant for software developers there.

And as someone else pointed out before -- are most likely hiring junior dev's from local colleges who are working mainly to get experience or for very low wage.

Not a healthy approach when attempting to make the greatest MMORPG ever made.

Originally posted by Artermis

The length of time its taken so far is about 9 years (from 1999). But for me the issue isnt length of time, its the cost involved in those 9 years. I wouldnt even like to guess how much money has been spent. On developers wages alone it must be massive (typical salary for a developer is what? £45k ? They must have some understanding investors, who have put their faith in a niche market game.

Props to them if they ever get any investment back.

Thats a strong comment  " But for me the issue isnt length of time"

The argumentation around is not based on facts  unfortunately.  This goes for me too btw don't expect me to have numbers here but IMO and my impressions talks here. First  the core developers  always  state thats their "lifetime work" thing , they don't  go  to a job type of work and expect  at the end of the month a fix  salary to get tranferred to their  account. So you anyway made up 45k its not the case here.
But they need income for to life, in Norway was an investor helping them , then they moved to greece  to lower "life costs" , they have found there  a bigger investor and i expect them to have done jobs beside DarkFall for some income. Atleast   for one of the developers it is documented to have done jobs beside DarkFall but also that he stoped with it last year because to invest  all his time in DarkFall.

In short don't think 45k is needed to live in greece  and cause DarkFall is their lifetime thing i don't expect them to demand that. Plus  indeed there are investors because Aventurine has worked in various fields(for State Defense Department as example)  before and while on DarkFall.

To sum up 45k may not be a accurate number for DF developers, they may have done various jobs beside DF on personal basis and  as company  and they have various investors.

You point however is valid and  the way i described can however explain the long development circle too..

And who said to treat the path of a specially way of life is always healthy

@ OP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darkfall

Originally posted by Theodgrim

This gets argued about very frequently around here.  So, lets get to the bottom of it, shall we?  In the blue corner, weighing in at 800lbs, we have the folks that say 7+ years.  In the red corner, weighing in at 99lbs, we have those that say 5 years or less. Who is correct?  Was the game scrapped when Aventurine took over, and a whole 'new' game developed?  Lets let them speak for themselves.  And to be fair, lets hear what they said AT THE TIME.  (Not years later when they were trying to cover their ass)

Status of Darkfall on 9/30/03, from Tasos:

http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=5542

So...they scrapped the game and started over in mid 2003, eh?  Damn these guys are fast - look, they are already in 'tech beta'!  Obviously, they did NOT start over in 2003.

How about 1/24/04:

http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=7202

4/26/04:

http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=8495

Lets hear from the core team, 5/4/05:

http://mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/setview/features/loadFeature/86/gameID/4/

This game has been in continuous dev since Razorwax started back in 2000.  Hopefully, this settles the argument once and for all.

(I wont even go into all the promises to be more open, give more info, communicate more often, show videos, start beta.)

Thanks to ghoul31 for digging up the links!

Why is this even a relevant argument, I don't understand what context it is being used in and what real relevance this argument has ? The game will not age or be superceded concept wise due to the fact that most MMO have pretty much little if no game. So lets look at Man Hours used to develop a game from concept to release someone pick a recent release and then calculate out the staff Aventurine have and do a comparrisson of reletive effort.

Elapsed time only has releveance from a waiting perspective, relativley speaking it is about effort and development put into the game which will give a real comparrison of where the game is really at. 

Originally posted by Artermis

The length of time its taken so far is about 9 years (from 1999). But for me the issue isnt length of time, its the cost involved in those 9 years. I wouldnt even like to guess how much money has been spent. On developers wages alone it must be massive (typical salary for a developer is what? £45k ? They must have some understanding investors, who have put their faith in a niche market game.

Props to them if they ever get any investment back.

You haven't got a clue AOC probably spent more in it's last six months than Aventuring has spent in it's lifetime.

Actually the poster above has it right; Man-hours is the universal financial calculation for the cost of any project, not calendar days.

So say DF has been using 30 developers for 8 hours a day for the past 7 years (assumption, not based) that would be  277200 man hours approx. (estimated using a 165-day work year)

In contrast, lets assume AoC has been using 200 developers for 8 hours a day for the past 4 years (assumption, not based), that totals 1056000 man hours.

So clearly you see that the amount of time (and cost) of a game has nothing to do with the actual calendar days spent "in development"...

Originally posted by Isane

 

 

Why is this even a relevant argument, I don't understand what context it is being used in and what real relevance this argument has ? The game will not age or be superceded concept wise due to the fact that most MMO have pretty much little if no game. So lets look at Man Hours used to develop a game from concept to release someone pick a recent release and then calculate out the staff Aventurine have and do a comparrisson of reletive effort.

Elapsed time only has releveance from a waiting perspective, relativley speaking it is about effort and development put into the game which will give a real comparrison of where the game is really at. 

Here is my point. Some fans insist the game was scrapped and started over in mid 2003, and that is why the game has been in dev for only 5 years or less. Yet, Tasos is talking about them being in 'tech beta' by Sept 2 of 2003. We dont even need the calculator to know that is crap. They didnt have anywhere NEAR the staff to cover the man hours necessary to go from scratch to tech beta in a matter of months. Especially for a game that promises the largest (hand crafted!) world ever, with more depth and complication than AoC. Even the HUGE devs teams cant pull that off.

So, it would actually be in the best interest of the fanatics to agree the game was in dev for for 7+ years - those man hours are necessary.  Hell, they need all they can get.

Good post Theo... Well done!

I have heard the cries of "It's only been 5 years in development" and "They scrapped the entire project and restarted from scratch in 2003" way too many times.

Actually the "initial idea" to make Darklfall happened in 1997. That's when it all started. Not the programming, but the initial thought process.

Doesn't matter.

You will NEVER get through to some of these hard heads, never. Reality doesn't come into play with Stanford, Aragon, Samjoo, Downtoearth (or whatever he's called today) et al

Adventurine could post a letter on the web tomorrow, cancelling the project, and these idiots would still continue their Darkfall crusade. Nothing anyone can say will ever make sense to them. Some people are just like that. They need ZERO proof to support their "blind faith".

But... Just maybe... In a few short months from now... They will finally get it and wake up to reality.

You think maybe?

Nah... No chance.

They'll begin making "new" excuses.

Originally posted by COORS

Good post Theo... Well done!

I have heard the cries of "It's only been 5 years in development" and "They scrapped the entire project and restarted from scratch in 2003" way too many times.

Actually the "initial idea" to make Darklfall happened in 1997. That's when it all started. Not the programming, but the initial thought process.

Doesn't matter.

You will NEVER get through to some of these hard heads, never. Reality doesn't come into play with Stanford, Aragon, Samjoo, Downtoearth (or whatever he's called today) et al

Adventurine could post a letter on the web tomorrow, cancelling the project, and these idiots would still continue their Darkfall crusade. Nothing anyone can say will ever make sense to them. Some people are just like that. They need ZERO proof to support their "blind faith".

But... Just maybe... In a few short months from now... They will finally get it and wake up to reality.

You think maybe?

 

Nah... No chance.

They'll begin making "new" excuses.

Again for anyone who costs up large programmes of work, this argument is mute the term development is being used very loosely. The game has had a number of stops and starts and is not being compared like for like no baseline or benchmark to add any strength here. It has not been in continuous development and large ammounts of the code have been reworked and the scope changed which is all fine.

So the game has been in development fo X ammount of time .... I don't understand your problem or what you are even trying to prove..

I don't have a problem, I have worked on products that have been in development over 20 years and it is all good(note the context as your argument doesn't have any because you don't have an argument you for some reason are trying to insult and wind people up for what reason I just don't know).

To Summarise: you don't believe in the game so everyone else shouldn't either and if people don't agree with your arguments you insult them. So they immediatley become idiots how very mature of you, Well Hard luck thats life get over yourself because you have failed...

I for one like the concept so guess what I will follow the development of the game and guess what yet again you can't stop me because you don't have a strong enough argument to influence my views.

I have seen enough evidence to be happy that this game is being developed, so again why do i need to listen to the rantings of a non believer.

A critical analysis of why the development cycle is wrong and flawed with good reasoning behind the argument and why it is relevant would maybe make me pause for thought but the i'll constructed arguments from peopel who ahve not interest here is just illogical and sad.

Originally posted by Isane

 

Originally posted by COORS

Good post Theo... Well done!

I have heard the cries of "It's only been 5 years in development" and "They scrapped the entire project and restarted from scratch in 2003" way too many times.

Actually the "initial idea" to make Darklfall happened in 1997. That's when it all started. Not the programming, but the initial thought process.

Doesn't matter.

You will NEVER get through to some of these hard heads, never. Reality doesn't come into play with Stanford, Aragon, Samjoo, Downtoearth (or whatever he's called today) et al

Adventurine could post a letter on the web tomorrow, cancelling the project, and these idiots would still continue their Darkfall crusade. Nothing anyone can say will ever make sense to them. Some people are just like that. They need ZERO proof to support their "blind faith".

But... Just maybe... In a few short months from now... They will finally get it and wake up to reality.

You think maybe?

 

Nah... No chance.

They'll begin making "new" excuses.

Again for anyone who costs up large programmes of work, this argument is mute the term development is being used very loosely. The game has had a number of stops and starts and is not being compared like for like no baseline or benchmark to add any strength here. It has not been in continuous development and large ammounts of the code have been reworked and the scope changed which is all fine.

 That is what makeds it unreliable..does it not?  Having developers [seem] hardly commiteed while they have a  huge fanbase waiting for years. 

So the game has been in development fo X ammount of time .... I don't understand your problem or what you are even trying to prove..

Well, people are trying to prove taht it has been in development longer than 5 years (which most fanboys seem to think).  The fact is, people seem to believe that they would randomly start over all of their work that they worked on FOR YEARS.  And each year after they say they are getting close to beta..

I don't have a problem, I have worked on products that have been in development over 20 years and it is all good(note the context as your argument doesn't have any because you don't have an argument you for some reason are trying to insult and wind people up for what reason I just don't know).

DN:F?  =D

Nah, I joke, best of luck on your project

To Summarise: you don't believe in the game so everyone else shouldn't either and if people don't agree with your arguments you insult them. So they immediatley become idiots how very mature of you, Well Hard luck thats life get over yourself because you have failed...

Having my own opinion does not make myself [or others] any more immature because we don't see your line of view.  People [usually] bring out good points on this forum, even though insulting does happen, so does constructive criticism.  I have seen fanbois AND trolls insult the other side of the fence.

Hell, I'm still crying from when you called me unintilligent

I for one like the concept so guess what I will follow the development of the game and guess what yet again you can't stop me because you don't have a strong enough argument to influence my views.

I like the concept as well, but there is nothing wrong with being skeptic.

I have seen enough evidence to be happy that this game is being developed, so again why do i need to listen to the rantings of a non believer.

Nothing wrong with people voicing their opinion.

A critical analysis of why the development cycle is wrong and flawed with good reasoning behind the argument and why it is relevant would maybe make me pause for thought but the i'll constructed arguments from peopel who ahve not interest here is just illogical and sad.

 You have seen some critical analysis of why the development is flawed/unprofessional/pathetic development process.

The fact is, Isane, I see a different view than yourself.  I give good reasoning behind my points, and it is unfair to group all skeptic people as one.

 

Isane refuses to recognize the purpose of the thread, even though it is clearly stated.  It is to settle the argument about how long DF has been in dev.  It has nothing to do with accounting, belief in the game, man hours, or anything else.  The game has been in dev for 7+ years.  (I consider it 8 years, starting in 2000, but if you count the earliest planning stages, even longer)

Originally posted by Theodgrim

Isane refuses to recognize the purpose of the thread, even though it is clearly stated.  It is to settle the argument about how long DF has been in dev.  It has nothing to do with accounting, belief in the game, man hours, or anything else.  The game has been in dev for 7+ years.  (I consider it 8 years, starting in 2000, but if you count the earliest planning stages, even longer)

Theo is correct here.

He was not trolling. He actually provided PROOF to support his claim to hopefully end, at least, the amount of time in development argument.

I fail to see how some of you supporters will refute even PROOF before your own very eyes.

That is denial.

Maybe you fanboys can continue putting down AOC as a "defense" of Darkfall. That seems to be working well so far, LOL!

To put this into perspective a bit.  My son was going into 5th grade when I first hard of Darkfall Online.  He just graduated high school last month.  That is a long development cycle in the MMOG field.  We are taking Windows 98, XP, and Vista.  Not to mention Windows Me was in there during this time as well.  I wish DFO the best, but if they don't hurry up they just as well scrap the PC version of the game and make it for the XBox 360 as that is the direction a lot of MMOG companies are moving.

Always so many idiots, thats like saying that spore has been in development for the last 15 years as thats when Will Wright came up with the idea.

No Darkfall entered full development in Q4 2003.

Originally posted by Krogan

Always so many idiots, thats like saying that spore has been in development for the last 15 years as thats when Will Wright came up with the idea.

No Darkfall entered full development in Q4 2003.

BS.  Claus came up with the concept in 1995, and "got serious" in 1997.  Razorwax was formed as a company, they had an investor, they had offices/equipment, and started work on the 3D engine in 2000.

Here is the state of the game from the devs own mouth, dated 9/30/03:

http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=5542

That is WAY past just starting full dev, wouldnt you agree?

Here is a historical link of Razorwax opening its web service for news and features for DF:

http://web.archive.org/web/20020605063521/www.darkfallonline.com/news/index.shtml

Dated as early as 2001, there can be no doubt this game is in development for 9-10 years.  Stories about merging, scrapping, deleting, undeleting and whatelse are pure fiction, or simple rumors or...

Wishful thinking.