Developers Corner

A few things before I get into this discussion.

---I've never been a big fan of PvP. Personally I think people that get their rocks off at "killing" other players have some issues. I'll not go into full details of why I think this, so don't bother replying to this part of thread. I will NOT respond to this.

---The only time I've ever pvp'd is when I thought I had to in order to progress in the game, or because my guild/alliance needed me.

Now on with the meat and potatoes.

I read nearly all the threads and posts about actual game mechanics I can from as many websites as I can. Which pretty much means I have no life and that's fine by me. (I've also worked in the MMO industry in development, but never had anything to do with pvp development)  I've had a life, and drunk a driver took it all away so ehh, off topic.

With that being said, there are a few constants that most people can agree on. (there are exceptions, but they're extremely few and far between, and in many instances, borked or not any fun.)

#1. PvP serves no purpose other than to show who has the bigger epeen.

#2. There's no real risk and no real reward at the end.

#3. Griefers and how to combat them.

This is how pvp is designed in my game.

Free for all, you can kill anyone, at any time. However, in the "Patrolled Sectors", whether in space, on the ground, or in cyberspace when you kill someone in non-consentual pvp you automatically get flagged and a "radio" transmission is sent to all other players who have opted to have the police band turned on. Players with the police band turned on will be given the killers name and last known location. The killers "flag" isn't a visible one. What this does however is allow any player with the police band activated to kill the killer without repercussions. I'm using the "police band" as just a generic description. Skills in the game will allow/aid in the tracking of the killer and in heavily populated planets with high law levels (law level is a planetary statistic based on the NPC government of that planet) the killer may be targetted by even NPCs.

In the Patrolled Sectors there is a 1% chance of your toon dying permanently in PvP. It will never get higher than that 1% in the Patrolled Sectors part of the game.

In the "Fringe" of space, there is no repercussions for killing another player. The police band doesn't function in the Fringe. However the fringe holds untapped riches that you just can't find in the overcrowded and over populated areas of the Patrolled Sectors.

There are certain weapons in the game that are so destructive and devastating that the chances of perma-death increase. And dying in certain ways increases these amounts as well. Dying by having your anti-matter reactor destabalize creates such a massive explosion that the GCN has a hard time transferring your "self" to a clone. Combining certain types of deaths with certain weapons increases total perma-death chances to 8%.

8% is not a massive number, but after doing several thousand random die rolls with an app I wrote that does nothing but make certain kinds of die rolls and tell me how often certain numbers are hit, I felt it was a reasonable amount of risk.

When you die (not perma-death) one item of choice can be looted from your body. If you perma-die and your body hasn't been totally obliterated everything can be looted from your body, and your ship if you are in one can be taken as well.  Damaged ships can be salvaged as well. When you die in pvp space combat your ship is gone. Pve space combat it just gets severely damaged (depending on circumstances).

Ships can be insured.

Perma-death doesn't mean starting 100% all over.

An idea from my daughter. In my design during the game you can start a virtual family. You can marry a player, or through questing you can marry an NPC. After a while you can have kids, and how you deal with your kids determines their personalities and later in life their skills. Providing the family with money and a good home will net you good results. (with tons of variables, like how safe is the planet you're on, is it a farming planet etc.) This is not something you have to do 24 hours a day. Come home occasionally, kick the wife and kiss the dog, put some money into the maitenance pool, speak with family every once in a while and you're good unless you want to do more. Family can also grant you information, like the npc wife/hubby may tell you something random they heard while out shopping which could lead you to something cool. Or your kids might get kidnapped etc.

What this all means however, is the better you take care of your family, the better off you'll be if you perma-die because at that point you can opt to take control of one of your kids. You won't start off as skilled as you were when you died, but you'll still have money, any stored items, plus the knowledge that you'll get revenge soon enough which to me plays on the pathos of a pissed off child coming to avenge a fallen family member.

Female players who opt for the family life will eventually appear pregnant, but will not have any negative side-effects of it. AND NO, YOU CAN'T SEE THE MAD MONKEY LOVE LoL.

There is also race wars and guild wars. The different races of the Patrolled Sectors occasionally get pissed at their neighbors and declare war. At that point whatever races are at war with each other can pvp without repercussions. Perma-death is only 1% in the Patrolled Sectors regardless. Same with player guilds, and considering you can take over entire planets and conquer planets (you can control planets in the patrolled sectors if you have a larger number of guild members on any one planet, but you can only conquer planets in the fringe) Player guilds can declare war on each other and at that point its FFA with no repercussions.

I forgot what else I was going to say.

What do you all think?

Flaming will get you reported, if your reading comprehension sucks, don't bother, and don't try to guess if I haven't posted it here. If I elaborated 100% the post would be much much longer than it already is.

Legitimate questions will be answered, flames will get you reported.

Also posted on another forum with more info and feedback.

www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/2055913/thread/183645#2055913

The reason for PvP is simple and obvious: no computer can possibly have an AI that works as good as the skills of a real human being.

Plus you have social aspects, too, of course.

I for one would not play this game. From your stance as a developer I can see that you could probably care less if I play it or not, but as a business person you should know why you will have less customers. You have very  strong opinion of how things should be and the way it comes across to me is that you don't really seem to care about those players who do like pvp. I want a game where I never have to fight a monster or npc at all. I would rather be able to fight othr players only in order to gain loot and levels fighting real players because they are challenging. I do not fight for the kill, I fight for the challenge. I want a game that has little or no npc involvement what so ever. I could care less if I actually kill a player, or that player kills me, I want the fight. I would not play a game with perma death because I would never be able to get ahead in the game if I was perma dying when I was just trying to level. Why would I want to lose everything I worked for in order to just have fun in the game? I do not think that someone who does not understand pvp should attempt to design pvp, they should hire someone who does pvp, and loves it and understands it, so that the game will have decent pvp in it.

Originally posted by beastliest21

I for one would not play this game. From your stance as a developer I can see that you could probably care less if I play it or not, but as a business person you should know why you will have less customers. Actually I do care, if I didn't I'd just design another WoW battleground where you never really get anything but more loot, and then you cry about how skill doesn't mean anything in the game. You have very  strong opinion of how things should be Sounds just like your opinion of me and my ideas. and the way it comes across to me is that you don't really seem to care about those players who do like pvp  Read above. I want a game where I never have to fight a monster or npc at all. As vaguely mentioned in my OP there are some things I didnt elaborate on because I was trying to get as much info out with as few words as possible. In my game you can go to the fringe and never worry about NPCs at all. I would rather be able to fight othr players only in order to gain loot and levels fighting real players because they are challenging. I do not fight for the kill, I fight for the challenge. I want a game that has little or no npc involvement what so ever. I could care less if I actually kill a player, or that player kills me, I want the fight. I would not play a game with perma death because I would never be able to get ahead in the game if I was perma dying when I was just trying to level.No levels here, all skill based. And if you had actually read my post you'd know that your choices within the game determine whether you start completely over or not. Why would I want to lose everything I worked for in order to just have fun in the game? Didn't read my OP. I do not think that someone who does not understand pvp should attempt to design pvp,Spent more years developing MMOs than most people have been playing them. they should hire someone who does pvp, and loves it and understands it, so that the game will have decent pvp in it. I understand pvp just fine, I may not have ever designed a pvp system but I've helped to develop technically 2 different MMOs, and I've played EVERY MMO currently available except for some of the asian grinders. When I don't know something, I ask. And truth be told, I probably know more of the technical aspects of pvp then you so called hard core pvp'rs that cry they want more, but when given more it's to much.

Yes I'm brash and arrogant, but I pay attention to what people say, and have been doing so for quite some time, which is why I no longer work for a big name developer. Something few people do anymore is actually pay attention.

To each their own, and this is only one aspect of the game and I've yet to even delve into any of the rest of it.

Originally posted by KaltesHerz

 

Originally posted by beastliest21

I for one would not play this game. From your stance as a developer I can see that you could probably care less if I play it or not, but as a business person you should know why you will have less customers. Actually I do care, if I didn't I'd just design another WoW battleground where you never really get anything but more loot, and then you cry about how skill doesn't mean anything in the game. You have very  strong opinion of how things should be Sounds just like your opinion of me and my ideas. and the way it comes across to me is that you don't really seem to care about those players who do like pvp  Read above. I want a game where I never have to fight a monster or npc at all. As vaguely mentioned in my OP there are some things I didnt elaborate on because I was trying to get as much info out with as few words as possible. In my game you can go to the fringe and never worry about NPCs at all. I would rather be able to fight othr players only in order to gain loot and levels fighting real players because they are challenging. I do not fight for the kill, I fight for the challenge. I want a game that has little or no npc involvement what so ever. I could care less if I actually kill a player, or that player kills me, I want the fight. I would not play a game with perma death because I would never be able to get ahead in the game if I was perma dying when I was just trying to level.No levels here, all skill based. And if you had actually read my post you'd know that your choices within the game determine whether you start completely over or not. Why would I want to lose everything I worked for in order to just have fun in the game? Didn't read my OP. I do not think that someone who does not understand pvp should attempt to design pvp,Spent more years developing MMOs than most people have been playing them. they should hire someone who does pvp, and loves it and understands it, so that the game will have decent pvp in it. I understand pvp just fine, I may not have ever designed a pvp system but I've helped to develop technically 2 different MMOs, and I've played EVERY MMO currently available except for some of the asian grinders. When I don't know something, I ask. And truth be told, I probably know more of the technical aspects of pvp then you so called hard core pvp'rs that cry they want more, but when given more it's to much.

Yes I'm brash and arrogant, but I pay attention to what people say, and have been doing so for quite some time, which is why I no longer work for a big name developer. Something few people do anymore is actually pay attention.

If all these hard core pvp'rs were as hard core as they think they are, perma-death would be welcomed with open arms. You want the risk and experience of competing against players, and you want the rewards but no consquences?

 

 

To each their own, and this is only one aspect of the game and I've yet to even delve into any of the rest of it.

You know, that this just goes to show that when you come across as arrogant and opinionated, that is exactly the response you will receive. Now the problem I have with perma death is this. If I am playing with 10 of my real friends and we are fighting pvp against 10 other players, and 5 of my friends get perma killed.. well how am I supposed to be able to mplay with them again at the same level of combat we were before?  Could they just come back just as strong so we could go fight another guild right after? I think that perma death makes for a very solo playing game in the pvp aspect because if your friends die you can't even do guild battles anymore. Maybe I am misuberuderstanding this concept.. also I have no desire to have to take care of an npc family.. it is bad enough taking care of your "guild family" .  If your guild members die you are left without a guild? I mean sure you could go meet other players and form a new group, but it would never be as much fun as playing with people you actually like and have a gameplan with. What would we have to do to all be at the same level of gameplay agin? Kill the remaining part of the guild then run around telling someone else to kill you so you could go hang out with your friends again? Hopefully I am confused on how this works. Because otherwise it would make it very hard to play with real friends. Especially when all groups ahve weaker and stronger players within the group. Well if my friends died, I guess I would jsut have to go play something else with them instead, so that I could actually play with my friends.

Originally posted by KaltesHerz

I apologize if I sound snappy, I'm old and cranky. Young by some standards, but old, very old in other ways so I'm scroogish, or however my daughter puts it.

 

You ARE helping, the only input I've had over the years have been close friends and family that have played my PnP version of this game, an they all swear by it. I appreciate their feedback, but they're fanbois and well to me a devout fanboi isn't worth their weight in gold when it comes to feedback.

 

This falls into putting as much info into as small amount of text as I can. Meaning I should've elaborated more.  NPCs will only kill a criminal once, however the murderer flag will stay till a player kills them.  I've thought long and hard about "witnesses" but the idea of this isn't just necessarily for the sake of reality, it's a way to prevent griefers, while still allowing it to some extent open world pvp. Some of these aspects are subject to change. 

What I meant was that if I kill someoen without witnesses, then that means I will still be chased by guards, even though they did not catch me in the action.  I understand that it will stop griefers, but nobody wants to be too scared to go to town because the guards will kill them, that just ruins it.  Whiel I do agree it should be flagged, I don't think that guards should automatically know when you've killed someone.

 After thinking about it, making pvp totally guild based is probably the better answer. Only guilds that had flipped the FFA pvp could free for all with other guilds with the same setting. And by joining that kind of guild you've given 100% consent. Another type of guild could be "War" Guilds that can only pvp with guilds they have specifically declared war with, that way no other guild regardless of setting can interfere. The 3rd type could be No pvp, and put the switches on timers so they can only be changed once every 24 hours and a message is sent out to everyone involved about the setting change. Probably a better idea..... Could do away with griefing all the way around.

Well, only guild based PVP could turn out interesting I suppose.  I thinkt hat PVP should be set by the leader of the planet, and each planter changes the rules (I believe you stated that somewhere before).

 

 

Your post also brought up an important point about how the guards will be attacking.  If the guards are too easy, then I will simply be able to take them all out without any consequences and I will be free (unless there are more).  But if there are too many, then I will have no chance of escape and I will be killed weith no chance (like Oblivion).

It sounds to me, that with the concepts you have stated here, that your game needs a jail. Guards and their strengths are determined by many things. If you're on a backwater planet it will most likely just be a few local militia that attack you, and you'll probably roll them over. Again this is affected by law level. High law levels will have more and better trained guards.

I see, but always having guards attack you can be very annoyiung.  I believe a jail should be there, because in high law level planets, this could be a punishment for breaking the law.  Of course, if they choose to try to escape the law, the guards may kill them, beat them, etc

 

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Most of the rest of this is moot if I go with the guild r