General Discussion

I have thought about this idea for awhile now. Especially since LoTRO fell flat for me and I wonder why. How could such a beautiful game like LoTRO be so boring for me? I started thinking about all the MMOs I have played and wondered what really made me love some and leave others. I realized the games I really loved, I was connected to my characters and the game world. These elements seemed alive for me. This is not based on how good the graphic are. I guess I could say I felt the games had soul. The games presented an atmosphere the characters felt alive and not just vehicle to move around the game world. In short they did not feel like a game. I am not say one is bad or good but I seemed to prefer the alive games. I wonder if anyone else gets what I am saying.

Here is a list of a few games I have played and if they were alive or a game to me. (Now when I say alive I mean that in a fun light way not literaly alive. No, get out and get a life comments please. I realize these are just games. Even with that said I bet someone will post a comment like that) Here we go.

LoTRO - game                                    EQ2 - alive

SWG - alive                                          SWG NGE - game (dead game)

WoW - game                                        Saga of Ryzom - alive

CoH/CoV - game (but I loved it)        Guild Wars - game

Tabula Rasa - game                           Asherons Call - alive

EQ - alive                                               Dungeon and Dragons Online - game

Ultima Online - alive                            Final Fantasy - game (it tried to come alive but did not make it

Hmm, so the list of "alife" MMOs is, according to you:

UO

EQ

SWG pre-NGE

Sorry, but I know a common feature of these: they are all OLD.

Except maybe this "Saga" title that I never have heard of before.

Is it possible that its mainly you, not these games ? Or can you specify more clearly what the advantage of the "alife" titles are, in comparison to the "only a game" ones ?

If you would own a game company and would be asked of your developers what they have to do to make an "alife" game, what would you tell them ?

Originally posted by Adamantine

Hmm, so the list of "alife" MMOs is, according to you:

UO

EQ

SWG pre-NGE

Sorry, but I know a common feature of these: they are all OLD.

Except maybe this "Saga" title that I never have heard of before.

Is it possible that its mainly you, not these games ? Or can you specify more clearly what the advantage of the "alife" titles are, in comparison to the "only a game" ones ?

If you would own a game company and would be asked of your developers what they have to do to make an "alife" game, what would you tell them ?

No I do not think it is me. That is why I started the thread to see if others understand this feeling or find it important to a game. There is no real advantage to the games I feel are more "alive" it is a preference. I also do not think all the games that give that "alive" feel are the only games worth playing. It goes to the core question in mmo development and that is do people really want or need a persistent world feel to make the game a success. I think SOE questioned that with NGE and failed. They decided the answer was "no" and removed all the persistent/sandbox feel to the game. I think those two words go together. Blizzard is flirting with this edge and found a balance between both ideas. At the lose of the alive feel I wish it had more of.

What would I tell the developers of my game company? Good question. First if it was possible (I no it is not) I would have them play pre-nge SWG a lot to be learned from that title. One thing that would be a must, is a feeling of ownership in the game. I hate the living on the streets feeling of WoW. So arguably housing is a must. Also placing the housing in the game world as in SWG would be in place. Every mmo has NPCs and they need to be alive and speak like in EQ2. The NPCs and creatures in the game need to move with purpose like in  Saga of Ryzom. A large world with little or no zoning as in WoW is a must as well. EQ2 is the most immersive game for me but I do hate the zoning. Changing weather effects with day night time cycles, including seasons would be needed. A feeling of enviromental scale. WoW does this well. You feel like you go up into the mountians and down deep into the craters. This was lacking in Ryzom and early EQ2. EQ2 addressed this with it's expansions and now you climb high and low. Also a must is a totally optimized graphic engine and game at release. Good fps is a must to the experience. The game play must be smooth even at the expense of graphics. That smoothness is critical.

Well I could write volumes on what I would do if leading a MMO's development. Those are just a few ideas to help create that enviroment on a graphic level. Game play is a totally different issue.  

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That is why I started the thread to see if others understand this feeling or find it important to a game.

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I understand and I too find it important.

In addition to aspects of the feeling of a living world that you've mentioned, I suggest this is helpful:

Breathing animations as well as a diversity of idling animations for fauna and characters both player and non-player; trees and other flora sway in the wind; animals wander around, graze, sleep, sniff players, even migrate, and carnivorous animals hunt and kill herbivores (you mentioned this point but it's also part of mine and it should be expounded upon a bit for the readers of this thread who never experienced Ryzom or weren't paying attention when they did); the clouds drift and their patterns change; city NPCs that serve no purpose other than to wander around the streets going about their own business; in essence, there is never a cessation of movement on the screen. A scene lacking movement depicts deadness.

I'm sorry of all MMOs I have only played Lineage 2 and Vanguard. I strongly doubt L2 stands the smallest chance in the world to end up on your "alife" list even if it had some strength, especially you where so dependent on the help of others.

So what I know about UO and the rest is only what others told me.

Well you didn't list Lineage 2 (shame you didn't play that) but I will go ahead and do it for you.

Lineage 2 - Automated

"Let he who has the best scripts win." -Lineage 2 code

Originally posted by nethaniah

Well you didn't list Lineage 2 (shame you didn't play that) but I will go ahead and do it for you.

Lineage 2 - Automated

"Let he who has the best scripts win." -Lineage 2 code

I did play Lineage II for about 6 months. I  actually like a lot of things about that game but it doesnot fit into my "alive" list.