Originally posted by Kyleran

*snipped the hourglass*

 

You hit the nail on the head.  I despise games that make me either dependent on a crafter to get my gear or make me feel like I must craft to be competitive.  If it was up to me, all gear would be drops or bought from merchants.   OK if other players sell the gear they make/own to me as well, as long as its on a marketplace, and not done by bargining/shouting.

 

 

There are alot of players out there that want something more than hack and slash game... Wich basicly 90% of the games on the market are now. They(and I) want a game where people who don't do the hack'n slash dance still has important roles for the game world, community and game overall.

But we got no where to go, because crafter haters(or should I say social gameplay haters) invade every game forum, be it released game or in developement game, and spew their poison about how they want to loot their way to riches, how they want to solo their way to the ubermench position, and how they don't want to rely on anyone... (Heck, we have a few on the Fallen Earth Forum, spewing this shit, trying to get the devs to turn 180 and make it a loot game... hopefuly the devs don't listen, and the haters understand tthat this aint the game for them.)

You, no matter my respect for you, as you're a good gamer(from your posts over the years) I would have to say, belong in the "only hack or slash, or else its crap/The sims gurly game" group of players.

I just wish that your type of gamer would know their place, and not enter games where loot aint king... Since it's obvious for me and you, that you and those other hack'n slashers, wouldnt like the game, and end up bitching about how the game suck... Despite that the manual, the reviews, the features, the in dev interview, the webpage for the game... Had all the info you needed to know that the game sucked for you.

Ps, don't take it the wrong way Kyleran, you ain't the one of these kinds of players that should be ashamed ;)

Thank you for making that point, wolfmann. There are plenty of games that appeal to the anti-crafting-importance type, and there will be plenty more. Why not leave the neglected pro-crafting-importance type some room to have something they can enjoy?

I feel that crafting in MMOs exists purely as a casual time filler

Originally posted by Jerid13

The fix?  add durability, or make things Bind when equip. 

But that would make me stop playing the game. I definitely do NOT want to work on getting the best armor in the game AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN !

Just because it "fixes economy".

Originally posted by GreenChaos

 

I like PotBS crafting.  You have warehouses and resource on different islands, and to make stuff you have to ship things for one island to another, sometimes going through a pvp area.

Pvp areas can be created just to block good resources for strategic purposes.
Very cool stuff, but It can be a bit slow paced.

Lmao.  Nice joke  :)

Originally posted by CDCosta

And thats why FFXI's crafting was so good.

Some people deticated a lot of time into crafting and it took lots of time and money to max out the craft.

 

That's a joke too. 

Originally posted by GreenChaos

 

I like PotBS crafting.  You have warehouses and resource on different islands, and to make stuff you have to ship things for one island to another, sometimes going through a pvp area.

Pvp areas can be created just to block good resources for strategic purposes.
Very cool stuff, but It can be a bit slow paced.

Originally posted by Thunderous

 

Originally posted by CDCosta

And thats why FFXI's crafting was so good.

Some people deticated a lot of time into crafting and it took lots of time and money to max out the craft.

 

 

That's a joke too. 

You're a Joke.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 

Horizons had all gear crafted, and while the crafters loved it, the adventurers hated it.  There was no reward for fighting that mob.  Oh they would get a crafting component but then they would either have to wait and craft it themselves or find a crafter willing to make it if, you could, then wait for the crafter to make it, which sometimes took days depending on when he was on, when your on, and how hard it was to make.

That's right on target.

Eve Online uses the technique of ensuring that there is a steady supply of desirable goods available in an open market even if all crafters are offline.  Fantasy MMOs usually structure crafting on a contract basis where logged-on customers make requests of logged-on crafters.  Fantasy MMOs also typically refuse to make crafting an integral part of the game.

Crafters cannot keep an inventory because there is simply no provision for it, nor can they sell anything if they are not logged-on.  Eve Online is structured to let crafters crank out product into a market that is constantly consuming it.  Neither side is inconvenienced and both sides desire the interaction.

All this said, crafting generally doesn't exist in MMOs.  It's actually push-button manufacturing where players pour ingredients into recipe hoppers, press a button and get a manufactured item.  I'd very much like to see crafting implemented in the way that A Tale in the Desert attempts; player skill is involved with the task of creating the end product.  Specific examples there are charcoal production, gem cutting and blacksmithing.

Originally posted by Adamantine

 

Originally posted by Jerid13

The fix?  add durability, or make things Bind when equip. 

Well, you're right - that would fix the problem

 

But that would make me stop playing the game. I definitely do NOT want to work on getting the best armor in the game AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN !

Just because it "fixes economy".

You just find yerself a crafter.

Oh wait, you mean that you wouldnt want to go to a crafter and pay some credits for a new armor, sicne your shinies are to be hoarded, and instead you want to spend 6 months raiding your arse out to get the best armor in the game that never decays, so once you have it, you never need to look at another armor raid ever, ever, ever, ever, ever! ?

Ive never been into crafting.  However, I would prefer to see an MMO with a deep, meaningful crafting system.  So many people (apparently) just want to see narrow, one dimensional games that focus on nothing but the combat grind...and the aquisition awsome loot...which isnt very awsome, when you think about it, since everyone gets it....

Originally posted by CDCosta

 

Originally posted by Thunderous

 

Originally posted by CDCosta

And thats why FFXI's crafting was so good.

Some people deticated a lot of time into crafting and it took lots of time and money to max out the craft.

 

 

That's a joke too. 

 

You're a Joke.

Lmao, dude go "craft" in FFXI and leave the discussion to us adults.

It may be a strange opinion I got but I really loved all the skill you could train in the browser game Runescape. You really had the choise the what you were going to do. Oke I admit training your skills there was pure grinding but it really gives a good fealing knowing you're a really good craftsmen!

I agree with most the comments here.

to make crafting interesting its not the actual process, its the value and use of the items that make it interesting.

in a world where the best gear or at least most gear is crafting, crafting has an impact on the actual world and has a point and meaning. so crafters enjoy crafting in such a world even if it is repetitive.

as hyped as a am about age of conan, I dont believe it will have great crafting and economy (though I'm yet to try it). earthrise looks like its going to focus on decent crafting and economy much in the same way as SWG, I look forward to it but have my doubts that it can produce.

In games like DAoC, SWG, or certian characters in Lineage 2, a player can be jsut a crafter and hardly level up and adventure.  For these type of games crafting has to have something really friggin unique added to it.

I'm waiting for the day when a crafting system is implimented that actually lets you customize the look of an item.  Just take an engine like CoH, where you have tons of small components that you can add to a larger item.

Example:  The player has the design for a basic helmet.  The helmet is created and is displayed in a 3d view in front the player.  The player can rotate and manipulate the helmet.  In order to add stats to the helmet the player has to add components to it.  So lets say the player has a horn that adds strength.  The player can rotate the helmet and literally place the horn on the helmet in the spot they desire.  Color the horn.  Perhaps add a design to the helmet itself.

Now THAT is crafting.  Not only does the player make a functioning item, but they make an item with a specific look that can say, "I am the designer."  That will add much flavor to the crafting world of games.

Originally posted by CDCosta

FFXI is said to have THE BEST crafting system.

 

And id agree.

 

Its very very simple, yet very very very complex at the same time, and without crafters, there wouldnt be a lot of good gear in the game.

 

 

 

 

I love FFIX and I really love their crafting system.  Saying that, I absolutely hate their business model.  One character per account is b.s. and paying $1 for each additional character is even more b.s.  Give me five to ten characters per account and I'm all over this game like white on rice.  Combine that with a total lack of storage except for paying $1 per mule for more, it just isn't worth.  Traveling is such a chore, they almost force you to have a mule in each of the AH areas of the game which is more money for them.  I hate greedy developers and that is the impression I get from SE.

Originally posted by Kyleran

 

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 

Originally posted by Brenelael

 

Originally posted by CDCosta

without crafters, there wouldnt be a lot of good gear in the game.

 

This is the basic principal that most games of the WoW era of MMOs just don't get. Crafting has to have a real purpose or its pointless for people to invest time in it. In my opinion all gear except the very basic noob gear should be player crafted only. The game that does this will be a crafter's paradise as they will be in high demand. This would also promote a very healthy player run economy as the prices for everything would be set by the players and competition would keep the prices reasonable.

 

 

Bren

I don't really agree with this.  Horizons had all gear crafted, and while the crafters loved it, the adventurers hated it.  There was no reward for fighting that mob.  Oh they would get a crafting component but then they would either have to wait and craft it themselves or find a crafter willing to make it if, you could, then wait for the crafter to make it, which sometimes took days depending on when he was on, when your on, and how hard it was to make. 

 

Adventures need some immediate reward for killing some mob, waiting and being dependent on a crafter (and yes I was both) just sucks.

Venge Sunsoar

 

You hit the nail on the head.  I despise games that make me either dependent on a crafter to get my gear or make me feel like I must craft to be competitive.  If it was up to me, all gear would be drops or bought from merchants.   OK if other players sell the gear they make/own to me as well, as long as its on a marketplace, and not done by bargining/shouting.

 

 

I agree with you also that the players should have a marketplace of sorts to do there selling and not just have to yell it out over public chat channels but I stand firm on the fact that all gear should be crafted. Saying that it ruins the game for the non crafter because they don't get the uber drops is just WoW thinking taken to the extreme. To work the devs that implement this system would have to think outside of the extremely small box WoW has stuffed them into. Horizons probably isn't the best example to use to argue this issue as that game had many problems that were not related to crafting directly but effected it indirectly through the trickle down effect. Horizons was just a bad game altogether and the no uber drops just added to the long list of complaints. I guess what I'm trying to say is gear should be just gear and there shouldn't be any uber items to drop in the first place.

Bren

LOTRO has a pretty good crating system.  The gear I currently have is a mixture of drops, quest and crafted.  The crafted stuff is pretty much on par.  When I played UO, Horizons, and Eve their crafting systems were pretty good.  I don't think crafting will make a come back till they bring back item destruction. 

I think the more global point is we need more games that are virtual worlds instead of diablo rip-offs.  In a virtual world, crafters create the items worn by the players.  They put them in their shops.  Combat types buy them, use them, break them, and then come back for more...And probably with some much needed rare ingredients they can either use to make something new or just sell to some crafter and buy whatever the hell they want.

Of all the games I've played, I'd have to say SWG got it best as far as virtual world.  1 character per account.  1 set of skills.  Choose those skills wisely.  Player houses and player shops.  Limited mass market (I prefer no market).

If the game is a hack and slash Diabloesque game, the crafting in it is bound to suck.  Along that line of thinking, any game with raiding really can't be a virtual world.  It just doesn't work.

In fact, a bit off topic, I would say the perfect virtual world (and for crafters) would have these features:

• Player housing
• Player created and run shops (no mass market)
• Guild level castles/keeps
• Ability to create kingdom borders/checkpoints/battlements
• Player ran crafting community to keep the troops/kingdom in arms and other things (food, etc)
• Sieges
• Plenty of monster bashing, but no raiding (max is group level monster bashing)
• Most raw materials are created through mining/forestry, etc - Very high level items (Magic items) need some hard to get components from creatures
• Monsters can hoard wealth as treasure to find (but some have nothing really)
• Monsters only have treasure equal to what their species has made for them to use, or stuff they got from dead adventurers
• Everything has a durability rating, and can only be repaired so many times (ala UO)
• Skill based - No levels
• Can't be adventurer and crafter - Mutually exclusive
• One character/account/server - No crafting mules

This would make a kick ass world.

I feel there should be more location based player run markets like in EvE and POTBS. Basically this helps promote player movement between locations and provides some good opportunities in trading [therefore making a trader class work].