General Discussion

So, by what I've read so far, it's not really the skills and how they're setup that's the problem. It's how the environment and encounters are setup that tend to reinforce a demand for the holy trinity of groups. I agree with that idea since often the best games I've played multiplayer, MMO, and single player often allowed me to shift my tactics with various degrees of success. Many MMOs don't seem to allow that possibility (CoH/V and DDO tends to in my experience); I wonder why?

-- Brede

Originally posted by Hvymetal

 

Originally posted by vesavius

 

Originally posted by Hvymetal

*Sigh*

So many people in this thread that canot pull their head out of the box to think.

Try out DDO sometimes, due to the possibilities for creating different characters granted by the d20 system allows many to play non-traditional builds/roles.

You'd be suprised at the *gasp* thinking required to complete quests when you don;t have traditional roles filled, but many people (especially hardcore MMO players) are terrified to think outside the box and adapt to non-traditional parties.

 

As to the post above: I'd take the 1st one that would allow me to fill out my group and adapt.

 

You don't need a healer for DDO? Is it not based on the 3.5E PnP ruleset? I only played it for 2 weeks or so at launch so I don't claim to be an expert.

No need at all to try and be *gasp* insulting.

I am not 'terrified'... I have explained why I like defined class roles, and none of it has to do with fear, obviously.

As for your final point... well, the point I was making if both were being offered what would you take? Why would you 'adapt'  when you are being offered the ideal tool to complete the job? Both would fill out your group. I think maybe you wouldnt, but you don't want to answer the quest honestly because it would upset your argument...

No a healer is not absolutly necissary to complete most if not all of the content for a well prepared team that uses teamwork.

 

 Fun obviously. It is more challenging to complete a set of goals with what you have rather than to run the same old run again where everyone has done the same job thousands of times & basically can do their role without any thought or use of planning, it  is all scripted out for them beforehand. It is more of a challenge, and at least for me, more fun to be challenged and actually have to put some thought into how to handle encounters.

I don't mind answering at all, I don;t feel it upsets my argument at all, I would take the first person to come along regardless of how well they fit into the holy trinity model because I am playing a game to enjoy myself and have fun, not wait for that perfect class to come along, if both were available at the same time whichever person (behind the charcater) that seemed like more fun to group with would get in.

Yes, DDO is based upon the 3.5 d20 ruleset. I have yet to play in a P&P group that had a Cleric, in P&P due to the slow pace of encounters and the capability to retreat and rest a lot of the time the Holy Trinity model breaks down even further.

Like I said... My question was if both were asking for a group at the same time? Who would lose out? The hybrid mish mash guy or the optimised guy?

if both were available at the same time whichever person (behind the charcater) that seemed like more fun to group with would get in.

How would you know which one was 'more fun'?

Would you interview them for 'funness'?

Or would you just take the one most optimised for the role?

Yes, DDO is based upon the 3.5 d20 ruleset. I have yet to play in a P&P group that had a Cleric, in P&P due to the slow pace of encounters and the capability to retreat and rest a lot of the time the Holy Trinity model breaks down even further.

Also, I do not know how long you have been playing 3.5 D&D, but the game you decribe sounds horrible... it takes days and days of game time to recoup lost HP without a healer in the group... It would take weeks and weeks of game time to do L1 of a traditional dungeon, and most of that would just be hdidng in some cupboard or sitting in an inn room! Thats probably weeks and weeks of heading back and  to a town (or getting to roll up weeks and weeks of random encounters...) for bed rest... or maybe you just don't have creatures, traps, environments doing much damage in your game?  Or do you guys just roleplay conversations all the time and not bother with combat, exploring, traps very much?  Do you just stack your game FULL of healing potions?

I am sorry, but I just do not think you are being very truthful... Either that or you have not played in many PnP D&D games with many different DMs, or MMORPG games with PUGs where a "well prepared team that uses teamwork" is a rare luxury indeed.

MMORPGs are to PnP RPGs what comics are to books. One is not intrinsically 'better' then the other, but they are different animals, with MMORPGs and comics seeking to deliver a more immediate message to the user. To do this they need to use certain shorthands, and for MMORPGs defined class roles is one of these.

I personally think the way forward is to allow multi classing (or a form of it) in these games where a player can develop a single character's abilities in 4 or whatever different roles to create the character they want, but at the same time recognising defined abilities.

Originally posted by Tatum

[...] MMOs need to move away from their half-assed PnP imitation, because unfortunately, MMOs will never be able to replicate PnP games...

No other game type can make PvP such a central and persistent game element, than MMOs. With PvP, you can have player battles about game resources in your world simulation. While all other games are only started, played for a bit, and then they end again, limiting the amount of change you can actually archieve.

Originally posted by Adamantine

 

Originally posted by Tatum

[...] MMOs need to move away from their half-assed PnP imitation, because unfortunately, MMOs will never be able to replicate PnP games...

Well ... I couldnt agree less.

 

No other game type can make PvP such a central and persistent game element, than MMOs. With PvP, you can have player battles about game resources in your world simulation. While all other games are only started, played for a bit, and then they end again, limiting the amount of change you can actually archieve.

I think you mistook "PnP" for "PvP" in my post. 

Originally posted by vesavius

 

Why would I prefer to adapt then wait for the perfect cookie-cutter party?

 

Like I said... My question was if both were asking for a group at the same time? Who would lose out? The hybrid mish mash guy or the optimised guy?

if both were available at the same time whichever person (behind the charcater) that seemed like more fun to group with would get in.

How would you know which one was 'more fun'?

Would you interview them for 'funness'?

Or would you just take the one most optimised for the role?

There is some communication done in getting someone for a group, now if you don;t like to communicate at all with others that is up to you. Is this an interview? Not exactly but I am able to somewhat judge by what someone types how they may be in a group. Now if you would like to further stack the example to try and fish for the answer you are looking for, you should have said two people trying tojoin at exactly the same time and type exactly the same response or request to join then which would be left out. Personally it seems you are fishing here to justify your position.

Yes, DDO is based upon the 3.5 d20 ruleset. I have yet to play in a P&P group that had a Cleric, in P&P due to the slow pace of encounters and the capability to retreat and rest a lot of the time the Holy Trinity model breaks down even further.

Also, I do not know how long you have been playing 3.5 D&D, but the game you decribe sounds horrible... it takes days and days of game time to recoup lost HP without a healer in the group... It would take weeks and weeks of game time to do L1 of a traditional dungeon, and most of that would just be hdidng in some cupboard or sitting in an inn room! Thats probably weeks and weeks of heading back and  to a town (or getting to roll up weeks and weeks of random encounters...) for bed rest... or maybe you just don't have creatures, traps, environments doing much damage in your game?  Or do you guys just roleplay conversations all the time and not bother with combat, exploring, traps very much?  Do you just stack your game FULL of healing potions?

Been playing P&P for about 22 years off and on through various DM's, various versions and various games. In most cases the DM's adapt. I have been in a few Montey Haul campaigns but no not in a majority. Nice attempt to tell me how much experience I have had since it did not fit your mould. Combat is a big part of D&D, most campaigns unless they are heavy RP would be combat heavy, most games I have played in would be characterised as more Hack n' Slash than RP heavy. Your DM never glossed over downtime? How boring is that, "so this week you guys are sitting in the inn still healing up..." Are you sure you have a lot of experience yourself? Sounds like you are coming at P&P from a MMO standpoint.......

I am sorry, but I just do not think you are being very truthful... Either that or you have not played in many PnP D&D games with many different DMs, or MMORPG games with PUGs where a "well prepared team that uses teamwork" is a rare luxury indeed.

The only time that I would think in a P&P game that would have unknown or random elements would be the 1st time you play, when a new member joins or you are playing tournaments. Is that what you are ghetting at? Tournament play? Whole different beast there than regular P&P with your friends over the weekends around some beers. So preparedness & teamwork come naturally. As to the MMO side just EQ1 back at launch, DDO and a few here and there for short periods of time. Regardless of experience there are games out there in which the Holy Trinity is not necissary. Since you like to take an insulting tone perhaps you should broaden your experiences a bit?

MMORPGs are to PnP RPGs what comics are to books. One is not intrinsically 'better' then the other, but they are different animals, with MMORPGs and comics seeking to deliver a more immediate message to the user. To do this they need to use certain shorthands, and for MMORPGs defined class roles is one of these.

I personally think the way forward is to allow multi classing (or a form of it) in these games where a player can develop a single character's abilities in 4 or whatever different roles to create the character they want, but at the same time recognising defined abilities.

 I agree on multiclassing, which may be part of the reason that the "Holy Trinity" is not as necissary in DDO compared to MMO's designed off the EQ mould. Once again, thinking outside the box is required, the "Holy Trinity" is not absoulty a must for an MMO to work provided there are ways to provide some form of damage mitigation, & to do damage.