General Discussion

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Originally posted by CactusmanX

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Originally posted by Xiaoki

vajuras - I said before that the HARDER the PvE content becomes the more necessary the Holy Trinity becomes.

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That is making the assumption that all MMORPGs must play the same as current ones. I would also argue that MMORPGs are never hard if you have good enough gear/level/skills and basic reading comprehension to know when to use abilities.
The only reason you need the trinity is because the game was created for it. For example all characters in RPGs take damage more often than not, this means that you would need a character to heal, not if the team gets damaged but when it gets damaged, taking damage in a fight is a certainty, this also allows tanks to work because they can absorb the most damage. Of course when we give tanks taunt then the strategy is complete.
But say we changed the focus away from damage absorption and toward damage avoidance where characters are not damaged in every fight and personal defense is key and also dropped taunt, then the healer becomes a safety net that occasionaly heals when needed and the tank becomes a character that can protect people from harm if they get into trouble, maybe through stun, knockdown etc. The key thing is that they can be useful to a team but are not essential, there wouldn't be any essential role to be filled, you change your strategy based on your group composition.
You can't do this now because current RPGs revolve around the trinity you can't escape it, that is the only way to play the game in high end PvE.

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Always liked your ideas and I agree fully.

Originally posted by Xiaoki

vajuras - I said before that the HARDER the PvE content becomes the more necessary the Holy Trinity becomes.

The "end game content" in CoX is so pathetic easy(what little of it there actually is) a group of one armed monkeys could do it. Theres only a handful of encounters in the entire game that requires any modicum of planning or strategy.

I mean, whats next, bragging that can kill Diablo on Normal with nothing but Amazons?

as long as we're talking about pathetic end game content... any game whose so-called 'end game' content is farmable; BY THE DEFINITION of being farmable -- it is pathetically easy.

i've watched several friends who play in 'raiding' guilds on games that have raiding.  i've never really seen any of them smiling or laughing or even having a good time playing.  everyone has their scripted role to play and lord forfend someone deviates or makes a misstep... 

eve doesn't require a holy trinity, cox doesn't, uo doesn't.

if it exists, it exists for the same reason raiding exists -- lazy devs and gullible playerbase.

i've also watched my friends playing in those raiding guilds and saw the "strategy" involved.  it was either going to a website to see how to beat the big bad, or a little trial and error, followed by weeks of farming that dungeon.  wouldn't one armed monkeys be able to farm high level dungeons, IF they're farmable?  i mean, if they're farmable, you basically do the same thing over and over and over again...  maybe the monkeys could just use one foot for those games?

something eve and cox offer that you don't see in a lot of other mmos -- variety.  you can set up all sorts of different teams in both games and do whatever sort of encounters you desire.  you're honestly NOT gimped by not having a brick/dps/healbot as the core.

if you don't like cox, that's fine; but if you're going to say that an incredibly boringly super repetitive, lonnnnnnnnnng drawn out farming with 20-40 people that you can't stand offline, for hours on end, is a preferable alternative; then, your logic is not very logical.

Originally posted by lkavadas

I'm tired of classes and levels entirely.  Lazy...

In time I think we will move away from this, but in small steps.  Warhammer is doing a little by having more blurred edges to its classes.

So with patience we will see the end of the holy trinity and other restrictive and traditional ideas, but it will take time.

Eventually these will be ideas of the past that we look back on and laugh.

I hope so Vortigon. I guess I'll just stick to EVE Online and continue to play other genres along side it

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Originally posted by damian7

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Originally posted by Xiaoki

vajuras - I said before that the HARDER the PvE content becomes the more necessary the Holy Trinity becomes.
The "end game content" in CoX is so pathetic easy(what little of it there actually is) a group of one armed monkeys could do it. Theres only a handful of encounters in the entire game that requires any modicum of planning or strategy.
I mean, whats next, bragging that can kill Diablo on Normal with nothing but Amazons?

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as long as we're talking about pathetic end game content... any game whose so-called 'end game' content is farmable; BY THE DEFINITION of being farmable -- it is pathetically easy.
i've watched several friends who play in 'raiding' guilds on games that have raiding. i've never really seen any of them smiling or laughing or even having a good time playing. everyone has their scripted role to play and lord forfend someone deviates or makes a misstep...

eve doesn't require a holy trinity, cox doesn't, uo doesn't.
if it exists, it exists for the same reason raiding exists -- lazy devs and gullible playerbase.

i've also watched my friends playing in those raiding guilds and saw the "strategy" involved. it was either going to a website to see how to beat the big bad, or a little trial and error, followed by weeks of farming that dungeon. wouldn't one armed monkeys be able to farm high level dungeons, IF they're farmable? i mean, if they're farmable, you basically do the same thing over and over and over again... maybe the monkeys could just use one foot for those games?

something eve and cox offer that you don't see in a lot of other mmos -- variety. you can set up all sorts of different teams in both games and do whatever sort of encounters you desire. you're honestly NOT gimped by not having a brick/dps/healbot as the core.

if you don't like cox, that's fine; but if you're going to say that an incredibly boringly super repetitive, lonnnnnnnnnng drawn out farming with 20-40 people that you can't stand offline, for hours on end, is a preferable alternative; then, your logic is not very logical.

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I was actually thinking bout resubbing to CoX you just cant beat the Character Creation system. I had one more alt I wanted to take to level cap (my rad/psi defender). It would be a great game to play alongside EVE Online. I could do my PVP in EVE and do my PVE in City of Heroes....

Originally posted by vajuras

 

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Originally posted by damian7

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Originally posted by Xiaoki

 

vajuras - I said before that the HARDER the PvE content becomes the more necessary the Holy Trinity becomes.
The "end game content" in CoX is so pathetic easy(what little of it there actually is) a group of one armed monkeys could do it. Theres only a handful of encounters in the entire game that requires any modicum of planning or strategy.
I mean, whats next, bragging that can kill Diablo on Normal with nothing but Amazons?

---

as long as we're talking about pathetic end game content... any game whose so-called 'end game' content is farmable; BY THE DEFINITION of being farmable -- it is pathetically easy.
i've watched several friends who play in 'raiding' guilds on games that have raiding. i've never really seen any of them smiling or laughing or even having a good time playing. everyone has their scripted role to play and lord forfend someone deviates or makes a misstep...

eve doesn't require a holy trinity, cox doesn't, uo doesn't.
if it exists, it exists for the same reason raiding exists -- lazy devs and gullible playerbase.

i've also watched my friends playing in those raiding guilds and saw the "strategy" involved. it was either going to a website to see how to beat the big bad, or a little trial and error, followed by weeks of farming that dungeon. wouldn't one armed monkeys be able to farm high level dungeons, IF they're farmable? i mean, if they're farmable, you basically do the same thing over and over and over again... maybe the monkeys could just use one foot for those games?

something eve and cox offer that you don't see in a lot of other mmos -- variety. you can set up all sorts of different teams in both games and do whatever sort of encounters you desire. you're honestly NOT gimped by not having a brick/dps/healbot as the core.

if you don't like cox, that's fine; but if you're going to say that an incredibly boringly super repetitive, lonnnnnnnnnng drawn out farming with 20-40 people that you can't stand offline, for hours on end, is a preferable alternative; then, your logic is not very logical.

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I was actually thinking bout resubbing to CoX you just cant beat the Character Creation system. I had one more alt I wanted to take to level cap (my rad/psi defender). It would be a great game to play alongside EVE Online. I could do my PVP in EVE and do my PVE in City of Heroes....

in another month or two, when i12 comes out, they'll finally have epic villain ATs; plus they're doing "powerset proliferation".  each AT (except the epics) gets 1 primary and 1 secondary set from other ATs (except brutes, 2 pri/1sec, and MMs 0pri/1sec).

ya know... UO is still around, and it never required a holy trinity.  EQ might be to blame for that, along with being to blame for introducing "raiding".

EQ was the ultimate villan here, they introduced the rigid class lines and mind numbingly boring raiding concept.  It was quite unfortunately that Blizzard happened to pick ex EQ raiders to do the Wow design because they really hurt the game with the raid mentality.

Personally UO is still my most fun MMO, but it has been so bastardized by EA that it is no longer the game I remember.

The problem is that investors don't want anyone to change the mold they want the safe tried and true, EQ-Wow mold.  Good luck trying to get funding for something that is radically different.

the greatness of guildwars is that there aren;t really classes in that they don;t define you at all. any class can be a tank, damage dealer or healer - some are better than others. but you decide how you want to play and you can only guess at how someone is going to play by thier class, not know.

guildwars fails on many other levels but after it every mmo I play it feels like there is no customisation of how you play at all. wow's talent tree just doesn't cut it all hunters have the same skills as every other hunter and etc.

I will really miss the guildwars as I enter hyborea and have to put up with Wow (aka. every other mmo's) class system.