Originally posted by naldric

What i find funny is... ppl still think AoC will be released on time...

You're probably right.  This latest delay opens the door for Funcom to delay again and still release several months before WAR.

I hope they can taker there time, and not get forced pulling a "Vanguard". The game has the potential to be a really ground breaking game.

~H

The problem with WAR is that they're trying and hoping to compete with WoW. If they'd simply settle for being a good game and getting a respectable player base they'd be so much better off than trying to please everyone to become the next mega hit with 4.5 million in Europe and the US.

I wouldn't be too surprised if a year from now, Pirates of the Burning Sea is bigger than both WAR and AoC, and I don't consider it entirely unlikely that AoC will also be bigger than WAR. Simply because trying to be a second WoW will simply have players go for WoW instead of your game.

And no, I don't believe for a second that the delay is for any other reason than trying to grab the WoW crowd. Mythic knows RvR, and already had that nailed down pretty well early on. I think delays are all to please the "WoW-market".

And of course this is my personal opinion and guesses, not adamant truth or analysis based on insider Mythic info. At least, when proven wrong a year from now, I won't be creating another account to hide from it. :-p

Edit: and my best wishes to the Mythic guys. We're all cheering for you. Just please keep this your game, not the game you had to make to make (more) money.

Originally posted by Dreamagram

The problem with WAR is that they're trying and hoping to compete with WoW. If they'd simply settle for being a good game and getting a respectable player base they'd be so much better off than trying to please everyone to become the next mega hit with 4.5 million in Europe and the US.

I wouldn't be too surprised if a year from now, Pirates of the Burning Sea is bigger than both WAR and AoC, and I don't consider it entirely unlikely that AoC will also be bigger than WAR. Simply because trying to be a second WoW will simply have players go for WoW instead of your game.

And no, I don't believe for a second that the delay is for any other reason than trying to grab the WoW crowd. Mythic knows RvR, and already had that nailed down pretty well early on. I think delays are all to please the "WoW-market".

And of course this is my personal opinion and guesses, not adamant truth or analysis based on insider Mythic info. At least, when proven wrong a year from now, I won't be creating another account to hide from it. :-p

Edit: and my best wishes to the Mythic guys. We're all cheering for you. Just please keep this your game, not the game you had to make to make (more) money.

Well I agree with you, but keep something in mind. WoW is so hugely popular for a certain reason...not because of the Warcraft name, or because of any certain graphical styles. It's because the game is fun. That's as much an opinion as it's a convention, and of course a good number of people will play it and not enjoy their time.

But nine million people, more than any other online game before it, many of whom are first timers to the genre, have played the game and become addicted. Still, just calling it 'fun' is a little vague. The character development is interesting, the abilities are fun to try in combat (and constantly changing through patches) the world itself is rather well conceived, and the game is programmed incredibly well. Nearly everything works the way it should, nothing seems too 'slow' or restraining, it's an easy game to just jump into and feel like a part of the world that's fun to interact with. It's on the easy side which makes it even more accessible, but there are a lot of further challenges players can find once the levelling process is tired out. Everything about WoW is solid. All of it comes together and ropes people in who never even thought they'd play a game like this.

I'm not writing a review for WoW, I'm trying to put the desire to emulate WoW's success into perspective. They're not just trying to put out a game made a certain way that will make a lot of money, they're trying to make a game so accessible that people in the millions will jump into this game and come away with it wanting to return. Sure, it will make them a lot of money...and that's why EA is so lenient with Mythic about this.

To put it conversely, think about Final Fantasy XI. There are some people who think the game is utterly badass, and hate the guts out of World of Warcraft. That's great for them, but people like me who think FFXI is just too slow and unforgiving to get motivated enough to play to the endgame simply aren't going to invest time and money into this product. And Mythic's bottom line is simply, why put out such an extensive, immersive product with such a prolific name as Warhammer if you aren't going to aspire to getting as many people to sink as money hours into this experience as they possibly can? Money or not.

BUT. One thing I agree with you about is that I do feel that they're pushing a little too far toward their perceived ideal of perfection. There's only so much improvement you can make before doing more harm than good. I feel that releasing the game pretty close to perfect and then making small changes after (there's these things called patches and expansions games have!) would be good enough.

I do wonder what state the game, and it's gameplay is in considering the extra length of development put in place for WAR. On the one hand, one can only assume this extra development time is a good thing so that it's extra polished, but on the other hand, I'm worried there's issues with balance and the gameplay features that they had to delay WAR again. I have no interest in the Warhammer franchise, and the only reason I'm planning to buy WAR is because I've enjoyed DAOC for years, and I'm hoping Mythic can better themselves with this game.

Well I'll give them a small applaud for not wanting to release something unfinished but lets be honest here, they weren't going to release anywhere near the same time as AOC. So lets not give them that much credit ok ?  This game has been in developement for almost 3 years now and seems to be nowhere near finished. The last time they pushed it back they said they wanted to add more things to the game and polish. Ok great for the fans but asking for essentially an 8 month extension to add even more polish is mind boggling and it is not even guaranteed it is going to release in the fall of 2008. Sounds to me either the beta testers were still unhappy with the changes or simply they just don't want to release near AOC. Could be both but either way I wouldn't expect a 2008 release at all.

I think they put themselves into a hole now. If they released now then it would be the next Vanguard, extend the developement and run the risk of competing with other mmo  games such as Stargate Worlds, Guild Wars 2, The Agency, Bioware MMO, Aion and also Blizzard has yet to announce its new mmo which hopefully will be announce soon! Hope someone has a big enough rope to pull them out of the hole cause its getting deeper and deeper.

I think some of the people posting they won't play something because it won't be out in the Summer vs the Fall is idiotic. I also think it's idiotic that people are swayed by forum user ignorance. A time frame for release is not the deciding factor for why anyone plays a game. The deciding factor is the community and friends that will be playing. The systems design of WAR appeals to my gaming style. I know many in my guild bought the CE just to make sure they could setup the guild during the Head Start period.

Reality check -- look over the facts and the mechanics of the game, ignore the forum hype and have fun with your guildmates once it goes live. If it's truly going to be a solid MMO, does it matter when it's released? Make up your own mind and don't be swayed either way by the forum cattle. When it comes out, either play it, or don't. This angst about it in the meanwhile is meaningless.

Well said Ghimpi :) 

I never base my wanting to play a game..on when its released.  INSTEAD I follow the game, watch the videos read what the critics have to say..either pro or con, and decide for myself if this is the game for me.

Once i do that...its just a waiting/patience game.    If the game is pushed back a few times, that tells me that the Devs are not yet satisfied with how things are turning out..and CLOSED BETA is the best time to go back to the drawing board and revise things that looked great on paper but not so good on implementation.

Any work of art.........takes time, patience and love to produce.

Cend

I base my game purchasing on a game if said company has made a realtivly close game like it before. In this case, mythic has and two things always stick in my head when I see anything about this title. First, they balance a game to crap and kill the player base. Still have not learned that, second they had another title in the works for a few years and it was deemed "not marketable", Mark's comment about we never bla bla bla, is just like his comments on that cancelled title that "WILL be released" and "Trials of Atlantis was a great expansion to the game", both comments which are and have been proven false.

I give credit were credit is due, daoc rvr was top notch and really the first in game seige type game that was fun and made sense. But everything else was the worse of anything you could think about an MMO. It is why the population went south after so many changes, it is why so many people I know don't care for beta and on and on I can go.

More power to those that will play the title, I just don't eat the b.s. that is being fed here. History speaks mounds more then words, in the case of Conan for instance, I am interested, but pulled my pre-order for the information released started getting double talked, just like they did with AO. Nuff said.

Originally posted by Dreamagram

The problem with WAR is that they're trying and hoping to compete with WoW. If they'd simply settle for being a good game and getting a respectable player base they'd be so much better off than trying to please everyone to become the next mega hit with 4.5 million in Europe and the US.

 

snip

I think you have it there. Trouble is WAR is only looking like its going to be incremental improvements on the WoW formula and to be the MMO champ  needs a "new generation MMO" I know I sound like an ad-man but seriously it needs something that dosent folow that whole tired EQ WOW formula. I have an opinion on the sort of thing that might be and there are a few titles that have some of the ingredients. Of course when people start to go back and look at what was fun in UO, & before that MUDS, the clues are there. It's all stuff McQuaid stripped out of the genre with EQ.

Man I dont mind the wait just finish it 100%. We as players and Warhammer Fans don't wanna see such a great combination ruined just casue of some people wanting to play early.

Just dont make us wait till 2009 Okay? Good.

Here's the thing.....You can only use the excuse "spit and polish" so many times.  While I'll agree on most points and by no means want another vanguard released, I'm a little concerned over this last delay.

Its not whether or not the game is going to good, It will be good or great , but the beta testing has revealed some of the content or mechanics that they thought would be a hit were not.

So how long before we wait until they release? Who knows for sure, but I don't think hiding behind spit n polish to make the best dam game is going to work anymore.

The pre order info being posted shows around 10/07/08 - 10/14/08 or something like that.  If Mythic doesn't clean up what they want by then and release the game good or great I think they will have comiited suicide for War.

If you don't have confidence in your game Mark then hire someone with some balls to push what the game needs to be released.

Originally posted by tmr819

I'm guessing that this is good news for AoC, frankly, as now it will get a hefty head start over the other big MMORPG contender of 2008. Assuming WAR keeps to the new release date, I assume it will end up launching at about the same time as Stargate Worlds, which I also think may hurt them a bit.

Of WAR and Stargate, the latter MMO interests me more.

I don't care about AoC, I don't want to play it and I won't play it.

It's not like there's is an alternative to what i want.

I want to play WAR and at the right time when it will be done.

I'm not currently playing any other MMO and I don't feel the need to.

Stargate World ?...a threat to a many years in developpement game? doubt so.

anyways my 2 cents.

I think this delay means that they should open up the beta test more.. to more testers...

like me..

*cough*

Originally posted by seraphol

 

Originally posted by Dreamagram

The problem with WAR is that they're trying and hoping to compete with WoW. If they'd simply settle for being a good game and getting a respectable player base they'd be so much better off than trying to please everyone to become the next mega hit with 4.5 million in Europe and the US.

I wouldn't be too surprised if a year from now, Pirates of the Burning Sea is bigger than both WAR and AoC, and I don't consider it entirely unlikely that AoC will also be bigger than WAR. Simply because trying to be a second WoW will simply have players go for WoW instead of your game.

And no, I don't believe for a second that the delay is for any other reason than trying to grab the WoW crowd. Mythic knows RvR, and already had that nailed down pretty well early on. I think delays are all to please the "WoW-market".

And of course this is my personal opinion and guesses, not adamant truth or analysis based on insider Mythic info. At least, when proven wrong a year from now, I won't be creating another account to hide from it. :-p

Edit: and my best wishes to the Mythic guys. We're all cheering for you. Just please keep this your game, not the game you had to make to make (more) money.

 

Well I agree with you, but keep something in mind. WoW is so hugely popular for a certain reason...not because of the Warcraft name, or because of any certain graphical styles. It's because the game is fun. That's as much an opinion as it's a convention, and of course a good number of people will play it and not enjoy their time.

But nine million people, more than any other online game before it, many of whom are first timers to the genre, have played the game and become addicted. Still, just calling it 'fun' is a little vague. The character development is interesting, the abilities are fun to try in combat (and constantly changing through patches) the world itself is rather well conceived, and the game is programmed incredibly well. Nearly everything works the way it should, nothing seems too 'slow' or restraining, it's an easy game to just jump into and feel like a part of the world that's fun to interact with. It's on the easy side which makes it even more accessible, but there are a lot of further challenges players can find once the levelling process is tired out. Everything about WoW is solid. All of it comes together and ropes people in who never even thought they'd play a game like this.

I'm not writing a review for WoW, I'm trying to put the desire to emulate WoW's success into perspective. They're not just trying to put out a game made a certain way that will make a lot of money, they're trying to make a game so accessible that people in the millions will jump into this game and come away with it wanting to return. Sure, it will make them a lot of money...and that's why EA is so lenient with Mythic about this.

To put it conversely, think about Final Fantasy XI. There are some people who think the game is utterly badass, and hate the guts out of World of Warcraft. That's great for them, but people like me who think FFXI is just too slow and unforgiving to get motivated enough to play to the endgame simply aren't going to invest time and money into this product. And Mythic's bottom line is simply, why put out such an extensive, immersive product with such a prolific name as Warhammer if you aren't going to aspire to getting as many people to sink as money hours into this experience as they possibly can? Money or not.

BUT. One thing I agree with you about is that I do feel that they're pushing a little too far toward their perceived ideal of perfection. There's only so much improvement you can make before doing more harm than good. I feel that releasing the game pretty close to perfect and then making small changes after (there's these things called patches and expansions games have!) would be good enough.

Both WAR and AoC have a challenging problem.

The reason WoW is so immensely popular is, of course, because it's easy for the MMO novice and the casual gamer to get into.  Most MMO players are casual -- they don't PvP much, if at all -- nor do they raid much.  The statistics bear this out, and it's really interesting since WoW is an equipment centric game where success and end game are based on raids and PvP.

That said, here come WAR and AoC.  In both, PvP is central.  In fact, WAR is nothing but PvP.

So how does FunCom and EA Mythic draw the casual MMO player?  Add more PvE to draw them in while finding ways to introduce these casual players into PvP in a way that's fun for them.  Both FunCom and Mythic have experience with this. 

I doubt if EA Mythic or FunCom are aiming for a niche market audience of hardcore powergamers who live and breath PvP.  No.  The only thing they want to emulate from WoW is the hugely popular wide-based appeal -- 9 million players is a nice, round number.  So when comparing it to WoW, this will be the crux for the success or failure of both WAR and AoC.

I agree with some of the previous posters.  Should never have given a date to begin with.  Pushing it back over and over really upsets their customers and they risk losing some as a result.

Oh and personally I was looking forward to Imperator over WAR by far.

Please just make this the last delay.  I understand that this will help of the quality if the game on launch day I'm getting anxious and don't  know how much longer I can keep waiting.

I can also wonder if this is EA sticking their nose into the development mucking it up.  In the past a lot of developers have said, American McGee for one, that EA wasn't a good company to work for from a development standpoint.

At least these guys have figured it out, if you have a bad release your game, no matter how good later on will not be as successful as it could have been.