General Discussion

For most people its a matter of wanting to feel like they picked a winner, making themselves winners.  Its the same with democrat vs republican.  Once a person picks a side they really want that side to win, not just because they believe in the ideals, but moreso because that is their side.  See also footbal fans.

Originally posted by Talinguard

 

Originally posted by WiccanCircle

The human brain needs simplistic versions of the world and classifies units of information.  If one game was good and yet I am not playing it anymore, then what I am doing must be better.  The human brain is not very complex. 

 

 

Wow, there is a pessimistic look at humans and their brains.  I can't figure out if you’re speaking metaphorically or literally about the human brain.  Brains are very, very complex, people on the other hand can be simple. 

The brain does about 10\17th calculations per second.  In under ten years, computers will blow past that level with the speed of an Indy car passing a homelss person pushing a shopping cart.  From that point on it will all be about writing the software structure to create a "thinking" system.  We will be obsolete in the creativity department.

People behave in very predictable ways because we have very limited responces to stimuli.  We are not even far from automotons built on the genetic traits we are born with.  (One of the reasons why profiling people through genometrics is going to be a very dangerous but inevitable step for the human race)

We tend to live in a dream world of mostly paradolia, inference and reconstructed memory.  We are about as good as it gets, but that isn't really all that impressive

But anyway, that was off topic.  What were we saying... oh yeah.  WoW Rulez!  or something

I totally agree though that "Old School"  games were all about the Fear Factor of risk and reward!  SO TRUE, GOOD POINT!  I remember being afraid to go certain place in Asheron's Call because #1 I could get Debt Penality or #2 I could Die and not be able to get back to my body or #3 I could get in to the vicious cycle of body recovery deaths that would wipe me out completely.

In today's games, after finishing missions, I quite often kill myself because it is the fastest way to get back to town.

Devs, are you listening?  Bring back the fear and risk and excitement of games, please.

Well, while the brain conversation is a lot more interesting, I will also attempt to stay on topic by discussing the issue at hand.

I'll address your comment "

"In today's games, after finishing missions, I quite often kill myself because it is the fastest way to get back to town.

Devs, are you listening?  Bring back the fear and risk and excitement of games, please. "

The problem as I see it is fairly simple, game structure and the way players earn money is all wrong.   My soulution to this problem is pretty complex (more long than complex, but I have to explain the whole thing for it to make sense) and frankly, is for the time being, secret.

Moving on, right now players spend months to achieve whatever goals they set for themselves, but players always (almost anyway) judge their achievements relitive to other players.  All achievements take time, after all that is the only real comodity a player has, time.  Thus any penalty that causes a player to redo something s/he has already done only matters if what it is that has to be re-done is less enjoyable.

Think about it this way.  If you like to shoot hoops and your coach tells you every time you miss three shots in a row in a game you have to run 10 laps around the gym.  Now if you hate to run you might not play hoops even though you enjoy it.

If on the other hand your coach said that missing 3 in a row means that you have to stand at the foul line and take 100 shots.  Both take time, both pull you out of the game, but shooting 100 shots might be fun, where as running laps is something you might hate.

Most players enjoy fighting NPC's, but after a while it becomes something we all know as the "grind".  The penelty of death is often, "more of the the grind".  It all goes back to where new wealth in the game comes from and how developers and game designers work to keep these issues in check.

I define a lot of the problems I see here http://www.slideshare.net/talin/defining-the-current-state-of-the-mmog-economy/

Originally posted by safwd

I dont believe it is the end game of WoW that people make most of these statements about, At least it isnt for me.

I dont like WoW because levels 1-50 are a no challenge speed fest so you can get to the end game.

Why anyone would make a game that everyone can breeze through 50 levels compeletely solo only to get to end game and have to do large group raids is beyond me (not getting into the PVP aspect of end game)

And besides EQ and DAOC most of the games you listed are not that much different from WoW in this reguard.

I support quick lvling on MMO's because a game is not supposed to be a part time job it's supposed to be a game that you can connect for an hour a be able to lvl up or complete a couple of quests and getting near to lvl up.  I hated MMO's that everything is a goddamn job like FFXI some might say; "Ah but the fact that is hard the acomplishment  feels great." but sincerely I think I prefer spend time in the real world and accomplish something on my real life than on a pixelated game. 

I love MMO's but most companies have to stick with the casual gamer philosophy.

Keeping on topic most of those games that you listed are great games. IMO i didnt like EQ and DAOC becuase everything when i played them took too much time.

VSOH I played the beta and enjoyed it but i dont know about the release version.

I loved LoTRO its fun and theres no ganking what so ever.  It is the roleplayer's paradise not that everyon that plays is a role player but it is a solid game and its fun as hell.

EQ2 is very fun one of the best mmos i've played but the problem with this game is that it has so many loading screens that pisses me off.

And finally WoW well it's my favorite mmo of all time played it since release til last month. For me it is one of the greatest mmos ever made its not perfect but is very fun to play.

If you want something diferent try Tabula Rasa is a great game and unique.

Originally posted by blakheart666

 

I think WoW quick lvling from 1-60 is a very smart move on a business stand point since it help players to play the newer content faster and buy the next expansion when it comes out. 

 

I support quick lvling on MMO's because a game is not supposed to be a part time job it's supposed to be a game that you can connect for an hour a be able to lvl up or complete a couple of quests and getting near to lvl up.  I hated MMO's that everything is a goddamn job like FFXI some might say; "Ah but the fact that is hard the acomplishment  feels great." but sincerely I think I prefer spend time in the real world and accomplish something on my real life than on a pixelated game. 

I love MMO's but most companies have to stick with the casual gamer philosophy.

Keeping on topic most of those games that you listed are great games. IMO i didnt like EQ and DAOC becuase everything when i played them took too much time.

VSOH I played the beta and enjoyed it but i dont know about the release version.

I loved LoTRO its fun and theres no ganking what so ever.  It is the roleplayer's paradise not that everyon that plays is a role player but it is a solid game and its fun as hell.

EQ2 is very fun one of the best mmos i've played but the problem with this game is that it has so many loading screens that pisses me off.

And finally WoW well it's my favorite mmo of all time played it since release til last month. For me it is one of the greatest mmos ever made its not perfect but is very fun to play.

If you want something diferent try Tabula Rasa is a great game and unique.

 

You said "I think WoW quick lvling from 1-60 is a very smart move on a business stand point since it help players to play the newer content faster and buy the next expansion when it comes out. "

What is the goal of an MMO?  Is it to level?  Is it to get stuff you need faster?  If so, can someone please explain to me how in an age where processors can handle almost 60 billion instructions per second, how we have evolved from Zelda?

MMO's have become nothing more than playing an advanced version of Zelda, but we play together.

I think that developers have totally lost sight of the fact that MMORPG's are social games, both positive and negative social aspects should be included.  What most games are are Zelda style games that never end.  This is accomplished through the expansions that the poster mentions.  All exspasions are are a way to redefine wealth in the system by making what is already there obsolete. 

I think it's pathetic.

Introduce the human element. I don't want to kill a dragon with 500.000 hit points, any player worth his salt with the same number of hit points (or even close) is a much bigger challenge to fight and a greater accomplishment when you win than any AI generated monster.  Kill 500 dragons a month or 500 players and see which brings you more respect.  Yes you could be despised, but that is just respect rapped in dislike.

The problem is developers haven't figured out how to entrust players to guard the games wealth, if they ask nice I'll tell them

/steps off his soap box.

Ok I never played EQ2, I played EQ1 so I'll compare that to WoW.

In EQ1 the challenge was social.

In WoW the challenge is gameplay.

In EQ1 past around level 15 you could not do ANYTHING without a group (except certain classes like Necro could solo like a mofo)

In WoW you can solo to 70 no prob.

In EQ1 there were no battlegrounds, you either rolled on a PvP server or you type /duel

In WoW you can either roll on a pvp server, or go to arena, or /duel, or /pvp flag yourself, or battlegrounds

In EQ1 if you died you lose exp, also you have to ask someone for a SoW and run back to your corpse, where you might die again and again and again dragging it out of whatever cave you died in.

In WoW if you die you have spend cash for repair. If your body is somewhere unrecoverable you use a soul healer and take a 10 minute penalty.

In EQ1 to travel from 1 continent to another, could take like 2 hours.

In WoW travel from Ungoro to lets say the Outlands portal in Blasted Lands on boat/bird is about 15 minutes.

In a way you COULD say Wow is "easier" but I dont think thats the correct word.

What most people call "difficulty" in EQ1 was essentially artificial timewasters, to make you wait longer, level slower, take longer to do everything.

It wasn't actual CONTENT, it wasn't that there was more to do and more to experience, no it was the same amount of content as WoW or even maybe less, it just took LONGER to get anything done, everything took artificially longer to do, so people felt they had an "investment" in the game, they were no longer having fun but after spending 2 years building up your character, people didnt want to quit, even though they were not having any fun at all.

The success of WoW is a wakeup call to the industry to cut out the GARBAGE in their games, the artificial TIME WASTERS.

In a way WoW ruined it for all the other companies.

Now people expect the MEAT of the game without the GARBAGE, and that makes it hard for MMO companies whose games are %1 meat and %99 artificial time wasters.

We want the epicness without the waste.

We want the upsides without the downsides.

Dont tell me it can't be done, Mr MMO company, WoW proved that it COULD be done.

Sure now that its 3-4 years old, you can say "ppl solo to 50 before they play" but people didn't used to do that when *I* started playing, they only do that now because they have 7 alts and they've already seen all the content.

People say "its boring at 70" you know why? Because 1-70 was such an awesome ride the first time, that they want MORE.

But alas nobody can WRITE content faster than you can READ it, so once you get to 70 the ride is over and all thats left is grind.

One thing is for damn sure.

I will be buying Blizzard's future games. And you know you will too.

Originally posted by fizzle322

 

Ok I never played EQ2, I played EQ1 so I'll compare that to WoW.

In EQ1 the challenge was social.

In WoW the challenge is gameplay.

In EQ1 past around level 15 you could not do ANYTHING without a group (except certain classes like Necro could solo like a mofo)

In WoW you can solo to 70 no prob.

In EQ1 there were no battlegrounds, you either rolled on a PvP server or you type /duel

In WoW you can either roll on a pvp server, or go to arena, or /duel, or /pvp flag yourself, or battlegrounds

In EQ1 if you died you lose exp, also you have to ask someone for a SoW and run back to your corpse, where you might die again and again and again dragging it out of whatever cave you died in.

In WoW if you die you have spend cash for repair. If your body is somewhere unrecoverable you use a soul healer and take a 10 minute penalty.

In EQ1 to travel from 1 continent to another, could take like 2 hours.

In WoW travel from Ungoro to lets say the Outlands portal in Blasted Lands on boat/bird is about 15 minutes.

In a way you COULD say Wow is "easier" but I dont think thats the correct word.

What most people call "difficulty" in EQ1 was essentially artificial timewasters, to make you wait longer, level slower, take longer to do everything.

It wasn't actual CONTENT, it wasn't that there was more to do and more to experience, no it was the same amount of content as WoW or even maybe less, it just took LONGER to get anything done, everything took artificially longer to do, so people felt they had an "investment" in the game, they were no longer having fun but after spending 2 years building up your character, people didnt want to quit, even though they were not having any fun at all.

The success of WoW is a wakeup call to the industry to cut out the GARBAGE in their games, the artificial TIME WASTERS.

In a way WoW ruined it for all the other companies.

Now people expect the MEAT of the game without the GARBAGE, and that makes it hard for MMO companies whose games are %1 meat and %99 artificial time wasters.

We want the epicness without the waste.

We want the upsides without the downsides.

Dont tell me it can't be done, Mr MMO company, WoW proved that it COULD be done.

Sure now that its 3-4 years old, you can say "ppl solo to 50 before they play" but people didn't used to do that when *I* started playing, they only do that now because they have 7 alts and they've already seen all the content.

People say "its boring at 70" you know why? Because 1-70 was such an awesome ride the first time, that they want MORE.

But alas nobody can WRITE content faster than you can READ it, so once you get to 70 the ride is over and all thats left is grind.

One thing is for damn sure.

I will be buying Blizzard's future games. And you know you will too.

Yes, just yes.  I too have never understood why the old MMO'ers (particularly EQ1'ers) look down on WoW so.  My brother had 5-6 years invested in EQ1 as a cleric.  He was in some high ranking guild and acquiring xxx loot every so often.  I'd often come to watch him play as well as just generally try to understand what the fascination was.  I'd watch the raids that, to be quite honest, looked horrible graphically speaking.  Heal chains, feign pulls, etc.  Sure it took a bit of skill to "learn" but once it was a skill you possessed it was simply a matter of waiting for your queue and then healing/buffing like the other lemmings.

     Once WoW hit I joined up.  I ended up becoming a raid leader in the early stage of the game (when onyxia was like the only raid boss), and my bro would come to watch me play.  He was so blown away by how much bullshit (forgive the language but that's what it was) was cut out of the game for the sake of pure fun that he quit EQ1 cold turkey.  I stayed with WoW for 2+ years myself (stopped at last boss in AQ) and I know that the previously mentioned equation of "time=reward" does not apply to WoW.  The equation that best fits WoW is "time+dedication+understanding+luck=reward."  You can have weeks to dedicate to an encounter and "never" get it.  As a matter of fact on the server I played on that very thing was what lead to the majority of guild disbands.  People would come together and couldn't figure out encounters so the guild just imploded.  The creative juices had to be flowing when you approached an encounter in WoW.  Death isn't a strict penalty in WoW, simply because if it was you'd never get anything done in a reasonable amount of time.  There was a period of 3 weeks where my guild spent time wiping day in and day out in Blackwing's Lair.  With each defeat we slowly learned a new portion of what worked a what didn't.  I say that only to make it clear that death equating to risk is, as previously stated, an artificial time waster.

I really just think the poster above hit the nail on the head.  EQ1's challenge was social; whereas WoW is strictly gameplay.   Since everyone in WoW is at or can easily attain the level cap; you don't really have to depend on someone as much because as cold as it may sound - they are replaceable.