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Citadel of Sorcery

Citadel of Sorcery 

General Discussion  » Why another fantasy level based MMO?

14 posts found
  sabutai22

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/24/05
Posts: 281

--Developers that create cookie-cut MMO''s deserve failure!--

 
OP  3/24/08 11:17:40 AM#1

Do game designers lack the creativity to come up with something new that they feel they have to keep the cookie-cut trend of level based MMO grinds?

I mean, come on already! Give us something new and worth paying for!

 

  Jatar

Novice Member

Joined: 9/16/07
Posts: 329

Citadel of Sorcery dev team member

3/24/08 11:44:30 AM#2
Originally posted by sabutai22

Do game designers lack the creativity to come up with something new that they feel they have to keep the cookie-cut trend of level based MMO grinds?

I mean, come on already! Give us something new and worth paying for!

 

Why?  Because we like the fantasy setting, and we believe we are bringing something new to the genre.  In our opinion it is not the setting that matters so much as the quality of the game play. 

  sabutai22

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/24/05
Posts: 281

--Developers that create cookie-cut MMO''s deserve failure!--

 
OP  3/24/08 11:55:00 AM#3

Originally posted by Jatar
Originally posted by sabutai22

Do game designers lack the creativity to come up with something new that they feel they have to keep the cookie-cut trend of level based MMO grinds?

I mean, come on already! Give us something new and worth paying for!

 

Why?  Because we like the fantasy setting, and we believe we are bringing something new to the genre.  In our opinion it is not the setting that matters so much as the quality of the game play. 

Jatar,

Im not trying to start a flame fest, however i feel that so many avenues could have been taken rather than the standard run of the mill level based MMO. Two simple questions and i can almost tell you the outcome of the game:

1. Will you require min/max level for group members when questing for exp?

2. Will you have level based gear and items that can be sold in markets?

If you answer YES to 1

then; Your sub base will exclude the casual gamer, since no one likes to jump into a game where long time friends have been playing and NOT be able to adventure or contribute with their friends.

else; Very nice and i applaude your game for not forcing restrictions in grouping with friends.

 

If you answer YES to 2

then; your game will be a target to farming and power leveling services, your game just like any other grind fest game will be a target for those type of services. As long as folks have the monetary means and someone sells the "grind" folks will always buy.

else; it would take me an entire paragraph on how to avoide this (sorry).

 

  Jatar

Novice Member

Joined: 9/16/07
Posts: 329

Citadel of Sorcery dev team member

3/24/08 12:20:08 PM#4

Originally posted by sabutai22

 

Originally posted by Jatar
Originally posted by sabutai22

Do game designers lack the creativity to come up with something new that they feel they have to keep the cookie-cut trend of level based MMO grinds?

I mean, come on already! Give us something new and worth paying for!

 

Why?  Because we like the fantasy setting, and we believe we are bringing something new to the genre.  In our opinion it is not the setting that matters so much as the quality of the game play. 

 

Jatar,

Im not trying to start a flame fest, however i feel that so many avenues could have been taken rather than the standard run of the mill level based MMO. Two simple questions and i can almost tell you the outcome of the game:

1. Will you require min/max level for group members when questing for exp?

2. Will you have level based gear and items that can be sold in markets?

If you answer YES to 1

then; Your sub base will exclude the casual gamer, since no one likes to jump into a game where long time friends have been playing and NOT be able to adventure or contribute with their friends.

else; Very nice and i applaude your game for not forcing restrictions in grouping with friends.

 

If you answer YES to 2

then; your game will be a target to farming and power leveling services, your game just like any other grind fest game will be a target for those type of services. As long as folks have the monetary means and someone sells the "grind" folks will always buy.

else; it would take me an entire paragraph on how to avoide this (sorry).

 

To answer your questions:

1) No.

2) No. (though players can sell items, they are not level based, and there are some special circumstances that completely halt farming).

 

Am I willing to go into all the 'how' we are doing this in our game, again, 'no'.  Some of these issues are very important to why CoS is different, and as much as I want to tell you this, we are just too far out right now to reveal how we are doing everything.  

  mike470

General Correspondent

Joined: 2/11/08
Posts: 2429

"We cannot change the cards we are dealt, just how we play the hand" - Randy Pausch

3/24/08 3:34:20 PM#5

Why do I get the feeling the OP really hasn't read much on this game...Actually there has been an abnormally large amount of people who doubt this game because they don't read before they post...

__________________________________________________
In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08 - Rest In Peace; you will not be forgotten

  Crookshanks

Novice Member

Joined: 2/13/05
Posts: 2

3/24/08 11:35:47 PM#6

By the looks of the OP's following posts, he/she has not read the Introduction to this game that is posted here on this site.

As to the original question, I am glad they are doing a "fantasy" game, as it is the only type that intrests me.

  User Deleted
3/25/08 5:22:11 AM#7

For me it's not so much an issue of setting but of how interactive my character/the world/the economy is. If those issues are satisfying and I can have stimulating adventures, I'm set. That being said I prefer very fictional (variations of fantasy or science fiction) settings rather than historically accurate ones.

  Stranger32

Novice Member

Joined: 2/07/08
Posts: 5

Fear is the mind killer!

3/31/08 9:51:39 PM#8

I gotta agree that we have more than enough fantasy games, and personally I'm really sick of seeing them... But the gameplay in CoS looks so promising that I'm willing to overlook that and give this game a fair try. It'll just be refreshing to have a game that'll make me think hard about my strategies for once, instead of simply using the knowledge I've acquired from the dozens of MMOs I've played previously. Simply the fact that the AI will be so sophisticated (really hope it'll be as good as they say) will add a lot to this game that other games don't have.

  JK-Kanosi

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/15/06
Posts: 1359

3/31/08 10:04:37 PM#9

Originally posted by Jatar
Originally posted by sabutai22

Do game designers lack the creativity to come up with something new that they feel they have to keep the cookie-cut trend of level based MMO grinds?

I mean, come on already! Give us something new and worth paying for!

 

Why?  Because we like the fantasy setting, and we believe we are bringing something new to the genre.  In our opinion it is not the setting that matters so much as the quality of the game play. 


Since CoS will be releasing well after DX 10 graphics ever made an introduction (a year ago?), will your game be supporting DX 10 graphics and high end hardware? I'm playing EQ2 right now, and they don't have DX 10 graphics, nor do they utilize Dual or Quad Core processors. Also, high end graphics cards don't work well on EQ2.

Being that DX 11 will probably be out by the time CoS releases, I do hope it will be taking advantage of better technology.

MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW

Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.

  Jatar

Novice Member

Joined: 9/16/07
Posts: 329

Citadel of Sorcery dev team member

3/31/08 11:21:19 PM#10


Since CoS will be releasing well after DX 10 graphics ever made an introduction (a year ago?), will your game be supporting DX 10 graphics and high end hardware? I'm playing EQ2 right now, and they don't have DX 10 graphics, nor do they utilize Dual or Quad Core processors. Also, high end graphics cards don't work well on EQ2.

 

Being that DX 11 will probably be out by the time CoS releases, I do hope it will be taking advantage of better technology.

Yes.  Currently our engine is running a DX9 rendering system, but it is in our technical design to write a DX10 renderer prior to release of the game.  This way older cards will still be able to play the game, and newer cards can take advantage of the DX10 advancements. 

Decisions on DX11 would have to wait until that is available.

 

Jatar

Citadel of Sorcery dev team member

  JK-Kanosi

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/15/06
Posts: 1359

4/01/08 9:21:26 AM#11
Originally posted by Jatar

 


Since CoS will be releasing well after DX 10 graphics ever made an introduction (a year ago?), will your game be supporting DX 10 graphics and high end hardware? I'm playing EQ2 right now, and they don't have DX 10 graphics, nor do they utilize Dual or Quad Core processors. Also, high end graphics cards don't work well on EQ2.

 

Being that DX 11 will probably be out by the time CoS releases, I do hope it will be taking advantage of better technology.

 

Yes.  Currently our engine is running a DX9 rendering system, but it is in our technical design to write a DX10 renderer prior to release of the game.  This way older cards will still be able to play the game, and newer cards can take advantage of the DX10 advancements. 

Decisions on DX11 would have to wait until that is available.

 

Jatar

Citadel of Sorcery dev team member


Thanks for the response. I didn't mean to imply I wanted DX 11. I just meant to say that if DX 11 will be out soon like some are saying, CoS should have a DX 10 client along with a DX 9 client. I'm glad you are doing this. Not only will you have an interesting game, but you will have a nice looking game. I hope you all come through for us.

MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW

Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.

  jakin

Novice Member

Joined: 7/27/04
Posts: 233

4/01/08 1:25:45 PM#12

Here's the funny thing though.

The majority of gaming rigs today still run on XP and DX9.  Conservatively it'll be another year - perhaps even two before anything close to the majority of systems will have been converted over to DX10.

If in fact DX11 is due to arrive within that timeframe - either it'll be so much better than DX10 that people will upgrade direct to 11 (thus calling development  of DX 10 code into question) or it'll be even longer (on the order of half a decade) before 11 is anywhere close to mainstream.

Smart business would seem to indicate that if Citadel is shooting for a release anywhere short of two years from now (???) they should wring every last drop out of DX9 (afaik there's still a fair bit that can be done with it) and worry about DX10/11 development down the road once they know they've got a good game on their hands.

  JK-Kanosi

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/15/06
Posts: 1359

4/02/08 9:48:21 AM#13

Originally posted by jakin

Here's the funny thing though.

The majority of gaming rigs today still run on XP and DX9.  Conservatively it'll be another year - perhaps even two before anything close to the majority of systems will have been converted over to DX10.

If in fact DX11 is due to arrive within that timeframe - either it'll be so much better than DX10 that people will upgrade direct to 11 (thus calling development  of DX 10 code into question) or it'll be even longer (on the order of half a decade) before 11 is anywhere close to mainstream.

Smart business would seem to indicate that if Citadel is shooting for a release anywhere short of two years from now (???) they should wring every last drop out of DX9 (afaik there's still a fair bit that can be done with it) and worry about DX10/11 development down the road once they know they've got a good game on their hands.


I disagree. The majority of gaming rigs, notice the word gaming, are taking advantage of DX 10 now. It is really cheap to build a gaming rig with a DX 10 enabled card now, so most gamers do have a DX 10 enabled card by now. We are talking about old technology here. Hell, the 9600 GT is already out and I just now bought a DX 10 graphics card (8800 GT). Now granted, most WoW players probably don't have a DX 10 card, but they wouldn't be playing a MMORPG if it wasn't for WoW.

In two years, I'd bet that the majority of people who play games, will have at least an 8k series graphics card or their ATI equivalents. While CoS should develop a DX 9 client, they should also not forget the other gamers out there who bought better computers and want to use the better features. LoTRO has both clients running, so CoS definitely should since they are looking at a release 2 yrs or so down the road.

MMORPG's w/ Max level characters: DAoC, SWG, & WoW

Currently Playing: WAR
Preferred Playstyle: Roleplay/adventurous, in a sandbox game.

  Jatar

Novice Member

Joined: 9/16/07
Posts: 329

Citadel of Sorcery dev team member

4/02/08 12:03:11 PM#14

The truth is, developers never know what the percentages of what cards will be out there by the time they release their game.  We try to take an educated guess. 

There are the 'gamers' who upgrade their systems to top of the line, or close enough.  Then there are the hand me down systems, the third and forth down the line that can't even run PCIe cards, but only use AGP.

What percentages of players are using what systems at any given moment is hard to answer, let alone predict the future.  Still, us devs take our best guess when starting the project. 

However, one thing we can do is plan to support cards as far back as possible, and yet also support the high end cards as well.  This is why we are going to write two separate rendering systems, one for DX9 and one for DX10 (and 11 if necessary, etc.).

In our game I can tell you the lowest level of card we currently intend to support... Shader 3.0 cards with a minimum of 128 megs of video ram.  This will probably upset some people who don't currently have this level of card, but remember, it will still be awhile before we release, so you will probably have one by then (we hope).  There are AGP DX9 cards that support this, so even old systems can get a card to play... and pretty darn cheap.

As to the high end, we will try to take advantage of all the bells and whistles so that you get full use of your hard earned cash spent on your wiz bang gizmo.  :)

 

Jatar

Citadel of Sorcery dev team member