General Discussion

For an interesting take on religion and politics Click the link in my sig area, watch the movie, sure it may seem low grade but... If you do some research of your own, youll find that what is being shown to you, is factual and proven from research you can find anywhere on the net or in your local library.

I WARN YOU, some parts of the documentary are shocking and can be disterbing to those that  have placed everything into their personal invisible man and messenger.

If you veiw the movie and come to a point  in your mind were you tell your self this movies bullcrap, then i challenge you to look up the parts you feel are crap. You will find the info is valid.

Veiw the documentary with an open mind and enjoy.

I personally was shocked.

The documentary is modern, and deals with religion, the American dollar, the Bushes, the north American Alliance that bush ninja signed us up for, 911 and building 7...

Enjoy, the movie link is hosted by the movie makers them selves and have a few different formats to choose from.

Originally posted by KrAzYBLADE

 

Originally posted by upallnight

 

Originally posted by KrAzYBLADE

I agree with the poster who said the bible is a guide, people see many condradictions in the bible simply because one book may word it differently than the other. I think in the end ppl are looking for a excuse to not believe in God. That is just my opinion and i'm sure someone will comment about me saying this...lol. :)

I also have a link to a website that may guide you, there is a question and answer section and even a section with bible condratictions, if you want go here and look to the left where the menu is. http://www.carm.org/  <~~ is the site.

I disagree with that.  I'm not looking at the contradictions as a way of not believing in God.  I'm looking at them as proof that man has taken God's love for all of us and tried to mess it all up.

 

Look, I'm a prime example.  I cannot in my heart ever believe that God does not approve of me being gay.  I know it because I also know that he made me this way.  Those misinterpretations and contradictions pointed the way for me to find the truth.  When I found out about the first misinterpretation I got the greatest feeling of hope I've ever felt in my whole life.  Then when I had the others pointed out, I finally felt a feeling of acceptance that no person or amount of people could ever give me.

I wish more people would learn about those contradictions and misinterpretations so that they too could find their way to be close to God.  You can't find God unless you question the people who are claiming to want to show you how to get there.

i believe you chose to be gay just like the murderer chose to kill, like the pedophile chose to molest the little boy. Deep down they knew it was wrong...but there lust, there desire made them do it....your lust and desire makes you do whatever you do. Its also a preference i perfer a latina over a white or black girl any day. God made me dislike white girls...no he gave me the ability to choose and i feel more attractive to those types. I know you feel that its right to be gay  even society makes you think that as well. I'm not going to bash anyone for being gay i just disagree with there choice,there lifestyle....just as i disagree with someone who rapes, kills, or molests. I know your thinking im putting you in a category with half of the people in prison....im not im just simply showing examples of who i disagree with.  I'm not perfect im a sinner just like everyone else.....you would disagree with me and my lifestyle, but its really about this.....if these first christians really didnt have prove of Jesus and really didnt see him why would all of his disciples endure so much hardship for someone who really isnt the saviour? I know i wouldnt go around the world teaching and professing and enduring torture, death for something a man just made up. I cant prove God exist to you just as you cant prove if the apple im eating tastes sweet or sour.  Experience is what i have, i've experience God in my life. No one can tell me any difference because not only have I seen it but others around have seen a krazy, depressed, guy gone from hating every1 to loving everyone. If there was no God then how does someone change in the blink of an eye just by praying to the wind? I know all of this doesnt really relate to what you said ...im just rambling...lol  God Bless you and keep you safe.

 

all of this is with love not hate or bashing.... I know you may feel offended but i would rather have a brother tell me he disagrees then a enemy.... I am your brother in Christ. much love!

You don't understand me any more than I understand how a man who is straight can fall in love with a woman.  I am not in lust with my long time partner, we are in love.  The only differences are these.  You fit into the majority, there has been a tradition of relating homosexuality as an excused target for judgment, and this is all amplified by today's interpretations of religious doctrines and the heated political climate.

I remember seeing this picture once of how a human would look if the areas of the body where he had more sensory nerves were blown up in proportion.  It is a humorous picture, the guy has humongous hands, and cranial features.  Here it is...

This picture seem analogous to how society today treats homosexuals.  We are a minority of folks who mostly just want to be left alone and be treated equally.  However, society blows its reaction to us out of proportion.  They say we are a threat (which they never logically seem to be able to explain or show proof of) that is so horrible that you would think we are out in the streets murdering babies and stealing old people's retirement funds.  It's hysterical behavior over something that really makes no difference whatsoever in people's lives other than ours.  Why else would this ludicrous argument be made that we are a threat to marriage?

If people have such a problem with us, then I'm inclined to think that the problem isn't really with homosexuals but with something deep inside of themselves.  Sexuality is a complicated thing, and I think some people just haven't come to term with their own needs in life.  If you've ever seen the movie Brokeback Mountain, then you would know what I mean by saying that.

I have a question for you as well.  If you feel that we are supposed to live a life that is popularized by modern Bible interpretations, then what exactly do you think we homosexuals are supposed to do?  Should we marry a woman and lie to her by saying we love her?  I could never love a woman, only a man.  Should I do this because you say that it says that I am supposed to in the Bible?  If that's the case, then would I not be breaking one of God's Ten Commandment's brought down by Moses?  Thou shall not be bear false witness.  I don't believe in lying or being deceitful.  That's exactly what I would be doing to a woman if I did that.  It would not be fair to her, myself, or any children we might have.

That shows how illogical and crazy those interpretations are.  They are incorrect and need to be questioned.  I know it's going to take a long time for them to be corrected, but at least someday people may quit damning us in life and instead let us be blessed as God has.  You have no idea how bad the scorn we go through hurts and damages a person.  It's a reaction that drives a lot of us away from God.  If that's the case, then how could God approve of societies behavior?  Even the worse criminal is told he has a chance at redemption.  Yet, we are told that is not the case.  In a lot of peoples eyes we are worse than those criminals.

Originally posted by MadAce

 

 

 

Originally posted by nurgles

Originally posted by MadAce

 

 

What does science tell you about religion? Does religion have a reason for existence according to science?

 

 

But let’s take one example of these stories and see if it is always successful. "thou shall go forth and procreate" therefore contraception is sinful.

Telling to go forth and procreate does not equal not to practice contraception. Your interpretation is skewed.

 

BTW, priests, celibacy.

 

Originally posted by nurgles

 science is simply a tool, like language, spears etc,  it does not give any moral value to anything.

 

 

Religion is a tool too.

 

And scientific reason can give us a moral compass.

any interpretation of a religeous statement is supported by faith. you can say my interpretation is skewed due to your faith but i can have faith that my interpretation is true. tbh i was using monty python's "every sperm is sacred" song as a reference fo that example.

Reigeon is indead a tool, unfortionately an inconsistant and unreliable one. For example miracles are unrepeatable.

I think the view that "scientific reason can give a moral compass" is terribly flawed and the misunderstanding that  causes of most Religion vs Science debate.

Science gives us ways and means to act with some resonable expectation of outcome, it is then people that use their own morality to judge which action is good or bad. Forensic science will tell us what kind of knife you used to kill your wife, but it will not tell us whether or not it was a good thing to do. It may then suggest a better, more efficient knife to use in the future.

if you have some examples of where you think scientific reason can give a moral compass i would be interested.

Originally posted by nurgles

 

Originally posted by MadAce

 

 

 

Originally posted by nurgles

Originally posted by MadAce

 

 

What does science tell you about religion? Does religion have a reason for existence according to science?

 

 

But let’s take one example of these stories and see if it is always successful. "thou shall go forth and procreate" therefore contraception is sinful.

Telling to go forth and procreate does not equal not to practice contraception. Your interpretation is skewed.

 

BTW, priests, celibacy.

 

Originally posted by nurgles

 science is simply a tool, like language, spears etc,  it does not give any moral value to anything.

 

 

Religion is a tool too.

 

And scientific reason can give us a moral compass.

 

any interpretation of a religeous statement is supported by faith. you can say my interpretation is skewed due to your faith but i can have faith that my interpretation is true. tbh i was using monty python's "every sperm is sacred" song as a reference fo that example.

Reigeon is indead a tool, unfortionately an inconsistant and unreliable one. For example miracles are unrepeatable.

I think the view that "scientific reason can give a moral compass" is terribly flawed and the misunderstanding that  causes of most Religion vs Science debate.

Science gives us ways and means to act with some resonable expectation of outcome, it is then people that use their own morality to judge which action is good or bad. Forensic science will tell us what kind of knife you used to kill your wife, but it will not tell us whether or not it was a good thing to do. It may then suggest a better, more efficient knife to use in the future.

if you have some examples of where you think scientific reason can give a moral compass i would be interested.

Religion is a tool. A very adjustable tool. So if it's inconsistent and "unreliable" (?) then it needs to be adjusted.

Scientific reason can give us a moral compass. Doersn't matter whether or not this truth makes you feel uncomfortable. We need a moral compass to achieve a certain goal in society. One goal can be to achieve a militaristic society (Sparta where it's acceptable to kill babies if they don't live up to certain standards.

Religion VS Science debates are held by people who understand neither sufficiently to form an pinion about them.

Examples: Anything.

Set a goal and scientific reason will give you the most efficient way to achieve it.

And this gives certain basic rules in almost any society. Like "don't kill". A loss of life is a loss of investment for society.

And so on and on.

In fact, our moral compass isn't randomly made up. There are reasons why we judge certain things to be morally unacceptable.

Originally posted by MadAce

Examples: Anything.

Set a goal and scientific reason will give you the most efficient way to achieve it.

I do not deny that there are reasons we judge certain things to be morally unaceptable, but i do deny that science yields those reasons. Science can be used to support a morality (or an immorality), but it does not create the moral structure.

lets take "don't kill", the morality that you are pushing there is one of pacifism. In conflict you could use non-lethal force also as you are using non-lethal force you could allow a greater level of collateral. So lets use an IR laser to permanantly burn the retinas out of any enemies leaving millions of combatants and non-combatants permanantely blind.Is it then morally acceptable to make children blind for the sake of a 'don't kill' morality.

through science you can acheive the goal, but the goal has to be judged by people first. Science can offer predictions to the outcomes of an action through modelling and understanding the current situation, but it can not say that blinding millions is worse or better than killing thousands.You may be able to calculate a cost to society (looking after blind people is expensive), but again the society has the oportunty to judge it as a cost worth paying to retain their moral value (killing peole is bad).

oh, and it doesn't make me uncomfortable to think that science could yield morality, i just don't understand how it could.  It's like saying "my kitchen knife told me to to kill people" or "my hammer is telling me to build houses not bash peoples skulls in".

Originally posted by MadAce

 

Originally posted by nurgles

 

Originally posted by MadAce

 

 

 

Originally posted by nurgles

Originally posted by MadAce

 

 

What does science tell you about religion? Does religion have a reason for existence according to science?

 

 

But let’s take one example of these stories and see if it is always successful. "thou shall go forth and procreate" therefore contraception is sinful.

Telling to go forth and procreate does not equal not to practice contraception. Your interpretation is skewed.

 

BTW, priests, celibacy.

 

Originally posted by nurgles

 science is simply a tool, like language, spears etc,  it does not give any moral value to anything.

 

 

Religion is a tool too.

 

And scientific reason can give us a moral compass.

 

any interpretation of a religeous statement is supported by faith. you can say my interpretation is skewed due to your faith but i can have faith that my interpretation is true. tbh i was using monty python's "every sperm is sacred" song as a reference fo that example.

Reigeon is indead a tool, unfortionately an inconsistant and unreliable one. For example miracles are unrepeatable.

I think the view that "scientific reason can give a moral compass" is terribly flawed and the misunderstanding that  causes of most Religion vs Science debate.

Science gives us ways and means to act with some resonable expectation of outcome, it is then people that use their own morality to judge which action is good or bad. Forensic science will tell us what kind of knife you used to kill your wife, but it will not tell us whether or not it was a good thing to do. It may then suggest a better, more efficient knife to use in the future.

if you have some examples of where you think scientific reason can give a moral compass i would be interested.

 

Religion is a tool. A very adjustable tool. So if it's inconsistent and "unreliable" (?) then it needs to be adjusted.

Scientific reason can give us a moral compass. Doersn't matter whether or not this truth makes you feel uncomfortable. We need a moral compass to achieve a certain goal in society. One goal can be to achieve a militaristic society (Sparta where it's acceptable to kill babies if they don't live up to certain standards.

Religion VS Science debates are held by people who understand neither sufficiently to form an pinion about them.

 

Examples: Anything.

Set a goal and scientific reason will give you the most efficient way to achieve it.

 

And this gives certain basic rules in almost any society. Like "don't kill". A loss of life is a loss of investment for society.

And so on and on.

 

 

In fact, our moral compass isn't randomly made up. There are reasons why we judge certain things to be morally unaccepta