Originally posted by DoktorTeufel

And most people are worthless, grinding lumps.

Dude we can''t all be Kenneth Lay.

Originally posted by DoktorTeufel

Originally posted by firefly2003

why does a game have to cater to everyone ..? jeez if people want a pvp game let them have it ..... the people whining about FFA -PVP there is plenty of PVE games for you to play ...go play them...

 

Why? The reason is simple.

A lot of people just want to go to a spot marked on their in-game GPS, engage in completely mindless PvE activities, and grind out the biggest possible e-peen without being challenged or threatened in any way.

The only real challenge in any MMORPG is PvP, because you're playing with and competing against other real people. Everything else simply takes patience and/or luck to achieve, and a trained monkey can do it.

 

I like MMORPGs that require people to develop real skills to start earning anything worthwhile.

Yes, lots of games have gank squads and unfair fights. But unless you're a retard, you can BE in that gank squad eventually, and you can BE on the dominating team sometimes.

I have no sympathy for idiots who can't spell, hate PvE, and want to sit there peacefully farming digital money and clothing for themselves. And crafting digital potions or whatever.

 

I enjoy PvE myself sometimes, though usually only with a group. But PvP is far more compelling.

People who love PvP and strive to be skilled at it are elite. That's why WoW has 10 million subs, because you can be a worthless grinding lump and still accomplish something.

And most people are worthless, grinding lumps.

I was tyring to make a short statement but it seems every forum i have visited so far with any MMO wanting to do FFA PVP has been met with resistance mainly from the WOW crowd and the whines I have been seeing . So far it comes down to this with that crowd they want to be left alone and do their grinds and have the I win button on thier keyboards with no risk or threat against them involved. If they want this type of game why are they playing MMOs to begin with I hope they realize it is Massive Multiplayer it seems any type of risk to them is a inconvience and a burden on the whole community. I play MMOs to play with thousands of other people not hide in my shinies and valuables its very anti-social gaming and its just a lame excuse to blame PVP games for thier poor social skills. If they dont want it then everyone else shouldnt have it cause it hurts them from getting everything in the game with no risk involved.

Originally posted by firefly2003

Originally posted by DoktorTeufel

Originally posted by firefly2003

why does a game have to cater to everyone ..? jeez if people want a pvp game let them have it ..... the people whining about FFA -PVP there is plenty of PVE games for you to play ...go play them...

 

Why? The reason is simple.

A lot of people just want to go to a spot marked on their in-game GPS, engage in completely mindless PvE activities, and grind out the biggest possible e-peen without being challenged or threatened in any way.

The only real challenge in any MMORPG is PvP, because you're playing with and competing against other real people. Everything else simply takes patience and/or luck to achieve, and a trained monkey can do it.

 

I like MMORPGs that require people to develop real skills to start earning anything worthwhile.

Yes, lots of games have gank squads and unfair fights. But unless you're a retard, you can BE in that gank squad eventually, and you can BE on the dominating team sometimes.

I have no sympathy for idiots who can't spell, hate PvE, and want to sit there peacefully farming digital money and clothing for themselves. And crafting digital potions or whatever.

 

I enjoy PvE myself sometimes, though usually only with a group. But PvP is far more compelling.

People who love PvP and strive to be skilled at it are elite. That's why WoW has 10 million subs, because you can be a worthless grinding lump and still accomplish something.

And most people are worthless, grinding lumps.

 

I was tyring to make a short statement but it seems every forum i have visited so far with any MMO wanting to do FFA PVP has been met with resistance mainly from the WOW crowd and the whines I have been seeing . So far it comes down to this with that crowd they want to be left alone and do their grinds and have the I win button on thier keyboards with no risk or threat against them involved. If they want this type of game why are they playing MMOs to begin with I hope they realize it is Massive Multiplayer it seems any type of risk to them is a inconvience and a burden on the whole community. I play MMOs to play with thousands of other people not hide in my shinies and valuables its very anti-social gaming and its just a lame excuse to blame PVP games for thier poor social skills. If they dont want it then everyone else shouldnt have it cause it hurts them from getting everything in the game with no risk involved.

The WoW crowd wants to "Own" in everything they do without consequence, or the possibility of them   losing anything. Same reason they roam around in large groups and zerg. Most of that crowd was pulled from console games. They are use to linear games that in the end, no matter what, reward them...even if they play terribly over and over again to get there. Instant gratification.

I played EVE Online for 2 years...I don't exactly like losing items and/or cash either, but that's what makes it scary and/or exciting at the same time. I could feel my heart beating in my chest during every fight, and it was great. They should definately have FFA/ PvP servers. I'll be there.

Originally posted by OrmSunnhet

 

The WoW crowd wants to "Own" in everything they do without consequence, or the possibility of them   losing anything. Same reason they roam around in large groups and zerg. Most of that crowd was pulled from console games. They are use to linear games that in the end, no matter what, reward them...even if they play terribly over and over again to get there. Instant gratification.

 

There is nothing wrong with wanting to be rewarded. We are playing a GAME here. Being rewarded is what entertainment is all about. I am glad that developers have wised up the fact that that is what customers want.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by OrmSunnhet

 

The WoW crowd wants to "Own" in everything they do without consequence, or the possibility of them   losing anything. Same reason they roam around in large groups and zerg. Most of that crowd was pulled from console games. They are use to linear games that in the end, no matter what, reward them...even if they play terribly over and over again to get there. Instant gratification.

 

 

There is nothing wrong with wanting to be rewarded. We are playing a GAME here. Being rewarded is what entertainment is all about. I am glad that developers have wised up the fact that that is what customers want.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't be rewarded. Not by a long shot. Yes, it's a game, rewards are good....

What I mean is that rewards are ALL they want. Without consequences. They expect to win all the time (Hence nerf rants etc. on forums when they lose to "X" class), and get items, xp, and things like titles (To show the length of their e-peens) all the time and never receive any negative effects (Such as flagged for killing lowbies, negative xp loss or equipment loss) for losing a fight, or simply making bad judgement calls. Half of the fun in games such as these is that decision of if your walkign into a trap, have a chance against an enemy, or simply that chance of losing something if your decisions don't go your way.

Of course I stated basically the same thing in my last post, but  I hope that clears up my meaning a bit better. /shrug

Originally posted by DoktorTeufel

A lot of people just want to go to a spot marked on their in-game GPS, engage in completely mindless PvE activities, and grind out the biggest possible e-peen without being challenged or threatened in any way.

The only real challenge in any MMORPG is PvP, because you're playing with and competing against other real people. Everything else simply takes patience and/or luck to achieve, and a trained monkey can do it.

 

I like MMORPGs that require people to develop real skills to start earning anything worthwhile.

Yes, lots of games have gank squads and unfair fights. But unless you're a retard, you can BE in that gank squad eventually, and you can BE on the dominating team sometimes.

I have no sympathy for idiots who can't spell, hate PvP, and want to sit there peacefully farming digital money and clothing for themselves. And crafting digital potions or whatever.

 

I enjoy PvE myself sometimes, though usually only with a group. But PvP is far more compelling.

People who love PvP and strive to be skilled at it are elite. That's why WoW has 10 million subs, because you can be a worthless grinding lump and still accomplish something.

And most people are worthless, grinding lumps.

You sir, are my hero.

I just want to support those who hate WOW :)

Without PVP i get bored of any game in no time. The danger and challende of player vs player stuff is what makes MMORPGs special. If you don't need it - go play offline games, no MMORPG will ever match "offline" games when it comes to content and quality.

AI in all MMORPGs is just too stupid and predictable, any non-pvp gameplay is constant grind.

Newbie players and chieldren are usualy afraid of PVP, but then they either get bored and quit games or they seek PVP. For example in AOC - PVE servers population = constant whining and unsubscribing after 3 months. PVP servers - everyone is still having fun.
I hope Jumpgate will get as much from EVE as possible - complex combat mechanics, the one and only real market/economy, player owned structures, size of the universe.

For me - Jumpgate Evolution is same as EVE but with more intense combat that depends mostly on your piloting skills and not your fiting/equipment/skill level etc.

What would realy turn me off is if combat will be too simple like aim and shoot... They realy need to take out those instant hits and give "bullets" some flight time so that manuvering would mean something...

 First off i respect that people love their pvp and its fun for them, but for some reason if people disagree with them they seem to get bent out of shape. PVP is not the same for every one just the same PVE stuff isnt.

I see PVP as mostly flavour of the month class or build that dominates it till its changed. Then a new one will take its place. And just because you love the thrill of being ganked doesnt mean every one else has too. And there are basic tatctics for PVP are just like PVE, kill the healer or the squishy first and so on.

PVP can just be as predictable as any PVE enccounter because the same tactics are used till they do not work any more.  PVP fights dont last nearly as long as alot of PVE encounters(raids and boss mobs) because the encounter is designed to be tough.

Bottom line is that their are very strong opinions on both, and nether are both totally right or wrong, but what is wrong is putting one side down over the other just because they differ in views.

And PVP say if want a safe game go play a single person game like fallout 3 or oblivion, but PVE people can say the same for PVP, want pure pvp go play counterstrike or Halo trype game.

Originally posted by OrmSunnhet

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by OrmSunnhet

 

The WoW crowd wants to "Own" in everything they do without consequence, or the possibility of them   losing anything. Same reason they roam around in large groups and zerg. Most of that crowd was pulled from console games. They are use to linear games that in the end, no matter what, reward them...even if they play terribly over and over again to get there. Instant gratification.

 

 

There is nothing wrong with wanting to be rewarded. We are playing a GAME here. Being rewarded is what entertainment is all about. I am glad that developers have wised up the fact that that is what customers want.

 

I'm not saying that they shouldn't be rewarded. Not by a long shot. Yes, it's a game, rewards are good....

What I mean is that rewards are ALL they want. Without consequences. They expect to win all the time (Hence nerf rants etc. on forums when they lose to "X" class), and get items, xp, and things like titles (To show the length of their e-peens) all the time and never receive any negative effects (Such as flagged for killing lowbies, negative xp loss or equipment loss) for losing a fight, or simply making bad judgement calls. Half of the fun in games such as these is that decision of if your walkign into a trap, have a chance against an enemy, or simply that chance of losing something if your decisions don't go your way.

Of course I stated basically the same thing in my last post, but  I hope that clears up my meaning a bit better. /shrug

Nope. Many would call that the non-fun part. It is a GAME .. its job is to please and entertain us. Get rid of some of the harsher penalties help with the fun part.

And what is wrong with winning most of the time? 

Dear Developers,

Don't listen to the OP.

Thanks,

Abrahmm

 People should never adopt the WoW approach of ANYTHING. That freaking turd has single handedly crushed innovation and change in the MMO industry. On the up side, it's the community filter for every other MMO so we don't have to deal with the millions of screwballs it's drawn into a genre they had no interest in until it started spoonfeeding and catering to them (which they now expect from everyone else), but the downside is where we used to see something different in nearly every MMO release in years past, WoW has managed to make every MMO exactly the god damn same!

So please, never, EVER, suggest something so repulsive again!

WoW style PvP is for carebears!! PvP should be an anytime anywhere combat! Oh how I long for the days of Asheron's Call. Havning to worry about being jumped at any moment. The thrill of raiding 'enemy clans' home towns/life stones. Loosing and gaining items from death. Really, most o.O's cry because they feel like sheep getting killed by wolves. But any player who prays on lower leveled players is no wolf, he's just a o.O himself, the kind I always took pleasure in sending back to the lifestone!

*Edit

To respond to some other posts. The idea of PvP zones is what is killing PvP. I'm a fan of dedicated PvP servers that offer anytime anywhere ganking. Yes, it sucks to be in the middle of a fight and have a player come around and jump you. But its also the trill of the game! If anything, there should be limited non-PvP (safe) zones.

Since there are so many responses, I will give my short answer to your post:

NO!

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by OrmSunnhet

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by OrmSunnhet

 

The WoW crowd wants to "Own" in everything they do without consequence, or the possibility of them   losing anything. Same reason they roam around in large groups and zerg. Most of that crowd was pulled from console games. They are use to linear games that in the end, no matter what, reward them...even if they play terribly over and over again to get there. Instant gratification.

 

 

There is nothing wrong with wanting to be rewarded. We are playing a GAME here. Being rewarded is what entertainment is all about. I am glad that developers have wised up the fact that that is what customers want.

 

I'm not saying that they shouldn't be rewarded. Not by a long shot. Yes, it's a game, rewards are good....

What I mean is that rewards are ALL they want. Without consequences. They expect to win all the time (Hence nerf rants etc. on forums when they lose to "X" class), and get items, xp, and things like titles (To show the length of their e-peens) all the time and never receive any negative effects (Such as flagged for killing lowbies, negative xp loss or equipment loss) for losing a fight, or simply making bad judgement calls. Half of the fun in games such as these is that decision of if your walkign into a trap, have a chance against an enemy, or simply that chance of losing something if your decisions don't go your way.

Of course I stated basically the same thing in my last post, but  I hope that clears up my meaning a bit better. /shrug

 

Nope. Many would call that the non-fun part. It is a GAME .. its job is to please and entertain us. Get rid of some of the harsher penalties help with the fun part.

And what is wrong with winning most of the time? 

I cannot see what  sheep such as yourself find so fun in no challenge. If you were good at adapting to the mechanics of games...THINKING of ways around problems (Puzzles in other words (Use of stadegy), which makes games learning tools to exercise your brain as well, instead of simply allowing you to drool in the fact you are so 1337 with no challenge what so ever), you'd see where I was coming from.
 

Sure, games are suppose to be fun, hence, they are games....but half the fun is overcoming hard puzzles, quests, mobs, situations. Not simply "Pwning" everything with no consequences or challenge. It's only NOT fun to those who suck at games where they have to actually use their brains (Hence, look at most of those who disagree using craptacular english skills to argue.)

Sadly, the majority of those who disagree with their being any sort of challenge to MMO's, and only getting instant gratification pat on the back, e-peen stroking fests are those who have only experienced WoW as their first MMO. A.K.A. The console players WoW sucked into the genre. Not all, but the MAJORITY of them. If any of them had played UO or EQ, they would understand where MMO's began, what they stood for,  their intent, and where WoW strayed away from that concept in the name of  GREED..and ruined the genre for generations to come. Rant off.

Couldn't agree with you more. Its quite sad how PvP as in Player Vs Player has become more of item vs item now. Games used to be about skill and risk and the gratification of knowing you and the other person put everything they had into the fight and you came out ontop now thats gratification.

Now you don't need any skill at all all you need is diligence. If your willing to invest more time and money to the game you will prevail over someone who is genuenley skilled.

Originally posted by taxguy

Dear Developers:

I am constantly amazed that MMO games get developed with a strong emphasis on PVP. Frankly, i HATE PVP. Not that I am aginst one on one, which is somewhat honorable,but usually PVP turns out to be a gank fest of 6 on one or it starts after a player is engaged in RVR,which is also unfair..

The most successful MMORPG game in history is WOW. Why not adopt their strategy? Have some servers with very limited PVP unless consensual and some with wide open PVP except for starting areas. This would appeal to everyone.

Also, as with WOW, instead of forcing folks into PVP, you can have a few ( and I mean a very few) zones that are PVP oriented and give some good rewards. Thus, you would be using the carrot vs. the stick approach. You can even have special PVP events found in "arena" types of zones.

If you are going to put PVP in all servers, then at least make it painless with cheap insurance or little penalty for ship destruction,

If you want to maximize your player potential and therefore profitability, you will adopt my suggestions.

The very reason WoW is having sucha  number of players is becoz of the fanbase not for its gameplay ...and reality is wat people prefer....no arcade style anymore...learn to adapt or become a victim of evolution

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Originally posted by nariusseldon

 
There is nothing wrong with wanting to be rewarded. We are playing a GAME here. Being rewarded is what entertainment is all about. I am glad that developers have wised up the fact that that is what customers want.

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The point of playing a game is to have fun. Not to be rewards, but to be entertained from the playing of the game itself.
Many people have fun with games that challenge you and offers risks, many do not. Most mmos are aimed at the ones who do not.. no good mmo for risk has come out in years. Let the riskers have a game for once, instead of boohooing at the devs until they cave in and make yet another kiddy game

Originally posted by Indo

Making this game hardcore PvP alienates so much of the market. Why shoot yourself in the foot when you're out to make money? My still all-time favortie MMO was EnB and it had zero PvP. Granted, at some times I wish it did. If I wanted hardcore PvP I would be playing Eve (and yeah I played that for a while but it was so tremendously boring). IMO, PvP really works when there's no real penalty for dying (maybe time or XP or equipment durability ala EnB or other intangables like that). When you venture into the realm of losing your ship or equipment for dying, the game becomes a little too like reality for me. I have enough reality in my life. I play games to have fun. Regardless of what happens, I'll try JGE. Whether or not I stay depends on the game itself.

Jumpgate should not be aiming at the MMO market, most of the Ex freelancer and freespace 2 community has been begging and wishing for a decent replacement. If the game does not have grind based advancement and good pvp it will appeal to GAMERs and they will find a larger and more loyal player base than WoW refugees who only stay for a few weeks.

Originally posted by randomt

 

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Originally posted by nariusseldon

 

 
There is nothing wrong with wanting to be rewarded. We are playing a GAME here. Being rewarded is what entertainment is all about. I am glad that developers have wised up the fact that that is what customers want.

---

 

The point of playing a game is to have fun. Not to be rewards, but to be entertained from the playing of the game itself.
Many people have fun with games that challenge you and offers risks, many do not. Most mmos are aimed at the ones who do not.. no good mmo for risk has come out in years. Let the riskers have a game for once, instead of boohooing at the devs until they cave in and make yet another kiddy game

It is not a one or zero thing. From the expansion of the market, obviously MOST people would like a LOWER amount of risks. That is no reason why developers should go back to the niche high risk market.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by randomt

 

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Originally posted by nariusseldon

 

 
There is nothing wrong with wanting to be rewarded. We are playing a GAME here. Being rewarded is what entertainment is all about. I am glad that developers have wised up the fact that that is what customers want.

---

 

The point of playing a game is to have fun. Not to be rewards, but to be entertained from the playing of the game itself.
Many people have fun with games that challenge you and offers risks, many do not. Most mmos are aimed at the ones who do not.. no good mmo for risk has come out in years. Let the riskers have a game for once, instead of boohooing at the devs until they cave in and make yet another kiddy game

 

It is not a one or zero thing. From the expansion of the market, obviously MOST people would like a LOWER amount of risks. That is no reason why developers should go back to the niche high risk market.

 

 

Yes, because as I stated earlier the expansion of the market is mainly the console kids brought to MMO's via WoW that are use to little  risk. They are use to the console games that don't truly have any long-term detrimental effects on their characters. Their are a few games out their in the console market that do, but very few.

Long-term effects have been in MMO's since their birth because they are NOT console games. They are ever evolving, digitally breathing worlds that are persistent , and suppose to mimic life to a point. Where your decisions can make or break you.  That's the point I think you are either missing, or simply ignoring. The fact that it IS fun to know in a given situation that you have to THINK about your actions, because it could cause your character short and/or long term efects that may or may not be reversable. Their is no instant "reset to the land of sunshine and rainbows" button if you decide to be a moron and attack something or someone 10 levels higher than you, or try getting through an area packed with dangerous mobs, but didn't think of a planned safe route and instead tried to Leroy Jenkins (term you should be familiar with) it through.

What detracts immersion and the fun out of MMO's for long-time veterans of the genre is the new developer's lean towards low risk. It causes the above mentioned senerios amongst others. That's why I left WoW. I felt as though I was paying $15 a month for virtual daycare services because their was so little risk in anything you did that nearly everyone acted like idiots because their was nothing to worry about. Unless you weren't a raid addict and had to PvP in greens and blues(If you even want to really call it PvP), in which you risked dying to any purple wearer 99.9% of the time. That's about it. Other than that, you could rezz at safe points,  pay a barely noticeable repair bill for your gear, get no xp loss upon death, etc, etc. Where is the fun in it? Or the thrill of having a heroic victory, or truly crushing defeat...other than those that smacktard talked?