I've had this idea for a while and thrown it around MMORPG.com from time to time, so please tell me what you think.

In World of Warcraft, for the 5-person dungeons (in Outland) you have Normal and Heroic difficulty versions.

The Heroic versions drop better gear, and are more challenging and less forgiving of mistakes.

They require increased coordination, communication, higher base-line gear, and better class balance. So I guess you can say that they require more "skill" to complete in comparison to their Normal difficulty counterparts.

Would you like to see the same Normal vs. Heroic difficulty setting be applied to Raiding?

The current raid structure in games like World of Warcraft is already pretty hardcore. You have to plan and schedule your raids, make sure you have proper class balance, assign roles and use stategies, and of course (at least in WoW) have the appropriate base-line gear level.

So I'd say, you'd turn the current crop of raids into the "Heroic" version, and then create an easier version of the encounter and dub it the "Normal" version.

The Normal version wouldn't be as rigid in terms of strategy and class balance, the base-line gear levels would be lower.. in essence, they'd be much easier then the current raiding scheme.

Of course, by doing so, you'd have to offer appropriate rewards, which means gear that is better then the 5-person dungeons but not as good as the "Heroic" or current-crop of raiding gear.

You could even lower the size requirements if you so choose. Instead of 10 or 25 people required it could be 5 or 10 respectively. Not too sure about that idea though, because the large team size is half the "problem" with current raiding.

I think this is a great idea because:

1. It's gets more people in the door. You get more people experiencing the end-game, downing bosses and completing raids, what better way to motivate end-game PvE players then victory?

2. Good way to "ease" players into the more "hardcore" and challenging world of Heroic Raiding.

3. Why create content that only a small % of your player base will ever experience? With scaling difficulty settings, more people can see the content and experience all the game has to offer.

4. The current crop of raiders still have the best gear and are still looked up to. With my idea, you don't take anything away from the current crowd who raids in MMOs, but you give so much more to the crowd who doesn't raid now but wants to.

What do you think?

*obviously this applies to more games then WoW, but I use it as an example given it's popularity and reach in the MMO market*

I am definitely for the idea.

As it is right now, it is very heard to get into raiding and I am not sure I will ever be able to do that. However, i do want to see much of the content. This is a great way to do so.

They probably should also add the heroic mode to all the pre-BC dungeons. I skipped over many of those when I level up my main. Now I probably will get to see some of them by either running friends through (I am only at 67 though) or doing it with my alt.

It will give me great incentives to go through them with my main properly (it is quite different to just run someone through) if they become heoric.

Yeah I've always thought they should add Heroic mode for the old world dungeons for groups of 5 level 70s.

They should even had Heroic level 70 mode for the old Raids.

Make ZG and AQ20 into 10-person level 70 raids, and all the old 40-person raids to level 70 twenty-five person raids.

Update the gear, resize/touch up the encounters.. and BOOM

You just doubled your end-game PvE content.

I wouldn't complain!

What's the hold up people?

So many are so pashionate for or against raiding, so come on! Tell me your thoughts.

And remember this thread is NOT about raiding vs. not raiding...

If you don't like raiding and don't think it should be part of the game, then say to yourself "what could be done to make me enjoy raiding" and then read my idea and answer the poll.

You took an idea that has already been implemented reiterated it asked if they would apply it to old world instances and pawned it off as your own idea...

Originally posted by dirtyjoe78

You took an idea that has already been implemented reiterated it asked if they would apply it to old world instances and pawned it off as your own idea...

I'm talking first and foremost about Raiding.

The inclusion of old world content is just a bonus topic.

And no, the "Normal" and "Heroic" mode are not my idea, I'm just asking should they be implemented into Raiding too?

Go troll somewhere else please, thanks.

DDO offers between 3 and 4 difficulty settings for all quests AND all raids.  I love it, and yeah...the difficulty and the loot scales accordingly.

Excellent Vincenz.

I'm glad they do!

They need to expand on this idea in other games, the more options the better!

Scaling loot vs. difficulty FTW

Why run the same difficult raid 4 times until you "get it right" when you can instead start at Difficulty 1, get some loot and accomplish something, then move to difficulty 2, then 3, then 4....

Makes more sense to me

Raiding/PvP/RvR, not on my server.  All loots redistributed in GROUPING.

I want to start at level 1 and group.  And I want to conclude my game experience in group.  I don't want to feel shafted because I don't play something else.  I am a grouper, I deserve to either succeed or fail at been the best grouper always grouping.  Best groupers have to be groupers.

Raiding is grouping...

Just on a larger scale.

As I said in my blog comments:

You don't NEED to raid to do the small-group encounters.

That's the way WoW works.

You do the normal 5-person dungeons. This prepares you for the heroic 5-person dungeons.

The heroic 5-person dungeons prepare you for raiding.

But if you don't want to raid, then if you can complete all the heroic 5-person dungeons and get the best gear from them,

well you are now the best you can be at 5-person grouping.

Using raid level gear for 5-person heroic dungeons is over kill.

You don't NEED the raid gear. Sure, it may make things a touch easier, be raiding vs. heroic 5-person dungeons are two seperate beasts.

Originally posted by heerobya

Raiding is grouping...

Just on a larger scale.

As I said in my blog comments:

You don't NEED to raid to do the small-group encounters.

That's the way WoW works.

You do the normal 5-person dungeons. This prepares you for the heroic 5-person dungeons.

The heroic 5-person dungeons prepare you for raiding.

But if you don't want to raid, then if you can complete all the heroic 5-person dungeons and get the best gear from them,

well you are now the best you can be at 5-person grouping.

Using raid level gear for 5-person heroic dungeons is over kill.

You don't NEED the raid gear. Sure, it may make things a touch easier, be raiding vs. heroic 5-person dungeons are too seperate beasts.

I do need EVERYTHING which make me a better grouper.  Been a subpar is not an option.  If the best gear is awarded in raid/PvP/RvR...I am not going to waste my time.

I start grouping at level 1.  I want to group, all the way to total uberness, always grouping.  Failing or succeeding should only be determined by grouping.  Not by weither I accept to play a FOREIGN gameplay or not.

Raiding is KILLING grouping.  It is definitely not the same.

raiding sucks.  I play MMO's to play with people not work with people(seriously you're expected to do more work in WoW than in WurmOnline which is almost 100% about crafting, building, and maintainence).

don't get me wrong I'm not all about death to raiding, I'm for the death of forced raiding.

That is your opinion and you are obviously entitled to it, and I respect your opinion.

But that is not the topic of this thread.

This thread is about making raiding better / more accessable, not removing raiding all together.

Thanks!

its a good idea.  they need more of this stuff for ALL dungeons.  Heroics in WoW are really only for 70's and only with some decent gear.  still it means those dungeons are not left to rot and its easier to find groups.

This is more than just "an opinion".

The journey is all that matter.

The journey is determined by the path of progression for every achiever out there (1 of the 4 big category)

If raiding is part of that path of progression, at ANY point, then raiding is enforced on EVERY achiever.

Any game which force me to Raid/PvP/RvR is a game that I will NOT play, nor buy, nor encourage, but openly discredit.  To make raiding "better", you first must stop to enforce it.

But you are the one thinkging that you are being forced to raid.

If you can complete all the small group content without raiding, then how are you forced to raid in order to complete the small group content?

Because you will gain XX dps from raid gear it will make the small group content easier?

Yeah, but you don't have to have that XX more dps to complete the encounter.

So I think it's a pride thing.

You say you want to be the best grouper, and you don't like that people that raid are "better."

5-person PUG (pick up group) vs. 25-person, all guild coordinated, planned, scheduled raid...

Yeah, I'd say the 25 person raid is more challening and they deserve better reward for the challenge.

I just don't understand.. raiding isn't forced. If you feel it is, then maybe you are playing the wrong game, or more likely for the wrong reason.

what do you mean raiding will be a hell of a lot more entertaining to raiders when only those that completely want to be there are.   

WoW is the only game that ever made me feel forced to raid or pvp which is why I quit (seriously before alot of the changes you couldn't get a group unless you had the appropiate 'gear' i've always thought this was ridiculous for just small non raid quests but thast how people who were learning to raid acted and still do).  

When you reach end game there's only one progressoin path and its gear (In WoW atleast it is most other games have alternate systems of progression beyond gear).    I don't hate raiders and I do think those that love raiding deserve some really fantastic stuff because its NOT easy but I've always felt they've been heavily catered too in WoW and I came from EQ1 the king of Raids.    I just didn't feel limited in EQ1 though since they had AA, various epic style quests that yea you needed a large group for but were not raids, various skills and languages you keep learning & discovering, crafting, and of course exploring every nook & cranny through faction manipulation. 

EQ1 & various other games had stuff for everyone you never had to raid and yea some were elitist asses over it but we can say that about any type of player group.   WoW took raiding and because its so popular and there's so many new players ...they took it and made it the end all be all for some people and thus those people are Elitist and jerks for no reason other than "i did this WoW raid' but yet they know very little about MMO gaming general.

There just needs be various ways to progress at end game besides Gear in any game.  That way raiders can raid, super pve groupers can group, pvpers can kill, and everyone else can continue to progress through various alternate trees of enhancments or crafting or exploring only available at high to end game levels.

Allowing any one group to be the end all be all is catering and thus in a PvE based game..a complete Shame.   Allowing any one group access to everything is again a shame.   Various ways to play various endgame needs, the more paths you have the more experimentation for players.  You never know what you might like if there's more than one way to go and you poke at all of them curiously.

I guess it can't hurt to do, but I doubt making "easymode" raiding will do anything for WoW.

The people who are currently raiding think they are uber and will only do the difficulty as it is currently.  The easier ones won't be done by the rest of the WoW community who are currnetly no raiding because basically they simply don't like raiding in any form.

DDO has multiple difficulty levels to its raids and when my characters reach the raid game I will cancel my DDO sub just like I canceled my WoW sub and basically for similar reasons.

As for the old raid dungeons I think it would be better for them to scale to 5 or 10 mans instead of hard/easy that way at least more than 15% of WoW can actually see the story of the game.

Originally posted by heerobya

But you are the one thinkging that you are being forced to raid.

If you can complete all the small group content without raiding, then how are you forced to raid in order to complete the small group content?

Because you will gain XX dps from raid gear it will make the small group content easier?

Yeah, but you don't have to have that XX more dps to complete the encounter.

So I think it's a pride thing.

You say you want to be the best grouper, and you don't like that people that raid are "better."

5-person PUG (pick up group) vs. 25-person, all guild coordinated, planned, scheduled raid...

Yeah, I'd say the 25 person raid is more challening and they deserve better reward for the challenge.

I just don't understand.. raiding isn't forced. If you feel it is, then maybe you are playing the wrong game, or more likely for the wrong reason.

When you put the pinnacle of progression into a raid instance then you are essentially forcing people to do it.

Anyone who tries to say gear is not part of WoW progression is silly.  Anyone who says people shouldn't care about progression in an RPG game is simply not being realistic.  And given that the designers structured the entire game around progression is basically silly as well.

This is a simple and inarguable fact:

Many people decline to raid because they dislike it, not because its challenging.  In fact many people do not find it challenging at all.  I certainly don't.

Punishing these people, who happen to be in the majority as well, is stupid.  I don't care if you think raiding is hard.  Because a) I do not like raiding and will not do it and b) I do not think it is hard.

So for raider to get better progression, which everyone knows they do, is not acceptable.  To think it is going to be acceptable to people who simply find it boring and tedious it silly. 

To think it is wise to just shove your hand into people's faces and reward some small group better for no good reason is assinine.

Even if the false challenge of raiding were a real challenge it would not matter because many people simply hate doing it and punishing them with worse progression because they don't like some tacked on crap is ludicrous.

Originally posted by heerobya

But you are the one thinkging that you are being forced to raid.

If you can complete all the small group content without raiding, then how are you forced to raid in order to complete the small group content?

Because you will gain XX dps from raid gear it will make the small group content easier?

Yeah, but you don't have to have that XX more dps to complete the encounter.

So I think it's a pride thing.

You say you want to be the best grouper, and you don't like that people that raid are "better."

5-person PUG (pick up group) vs. 25-person, all guild coordinated, planned, scheduled raid...

Yeah, I'd say the 25 person raid is more challening and they deserve better reward for the challenge.

I just don't understand.. raiding isn't forced. If you feel it is, then maybe you are playing the wrong game, or more likely for the wrong reason.

I will add to it. The fact that MOST WOW players never raid (someone has some statistics somewhere but I don't have the reference handy) shows that raiding is not forced.

Originally posted by heerobya

Excellent Vincenz.

I'm glad they do!

They need to expand on this idea in other games, the more options the better!

Scaling loot vs. difficulty FTW

Why run the same difficult raid 4 times until you "get it right" when you can instead start at Difficulty 1, get some loot and accomplish something, then move to difficulty 2, then 3, then 4....

Makes more sense to me

Lets take a "raid Encounter", it is a 20 dollar final boss and normally takes 40 people.  What I imagine you are suggesting is if you go into this raid with 10 people, you don't want that 20 dollar final boss to by 20 dollar, but some number higher than that.  That would be exploiting and meta gaming to me.  Scaling is fine, but a given mob or encounter needs to  have it's explicit limit.  If you want to go for it with less than the number it was designed for so you can feel a "challenge", that is great.  But a 20 dollar encounter is a 20 dollar encounter.

Originally posted by wjrasmussen

 

When I read the scaling loot vs difficulty, I hear a problem.  Most people don't mention a cap on it.  In fact, I suspect most people want to use it as a way to exploit a system.

 

Lets take a "raid Encounter", it is a 20 dollar final boss and normally takes 40 people.  What I imagine you are suggesting is if you go into this raid with 10 people, you don't want that 20 dollar final boss to by 20 dollar, but some number higher than that.  That would be exploiting and meta gaming to me.  Scaling is fine, but a given mob or encounter needs to  have it's explicit limit.  If you want to go for it with less than the number it was designed for so you can feel a "challenge", that is great.  But a 20 dollar encounter is a 20 dollar encounter.

Well yeah there obviously needs to be caps on the high end and the low end.

You don't want to make them soloable by someone with good enough gear/skill (or do you?) and you don't want to have them scale up too high.

But still, scaling requires the devs to create or "randomize" multiple encounters... I suppose they could put things on some kind of slider but you'd have to make sure every point on the scale is balanced and the loot matched the difficulty...

In other words, a hell of a lot of work.

The heroic vs. normal 5-person dungeon split is a "simple" solution that offers pretty much the same results.