General Discussion

...the many PvP games out there flounder since they obviously don't have the one feature YOU want. It could be amazing except for [insert your special pvp rule here] so you won't play that one.

...in games that offer both PvE and PvP, PvE population GREATLY outnumbers PvP population. Then you end up trying to balance PvP and end up ruining PvE.

...in Games like Cabal Online where you have 3 PvE servers and 14 or so PvP servers, you can hardly get on a PvE server due to it being full, the PvP servers are sparsely populated and the FFA PvP server is a ghost town.

It just seems odd that many people don't realize that PvP is a horrible idea when trying to appeal to the masses.  You can make the absolute best game in the world with every feature anyone could dream of and then you add PvP and you kill it.  PvE'ers (those that pay the bills) simply won't give the game a second look.  Why is this so hard to understand?

Pvp is definately necessary to a good MMO, but I agree that games completely based on pvp have an extremely small niche audience.  This is not to say that a game based solely on pvp cannot exist (after all, the market is valid even if it is small).  It's just that pvp only games will likely not succeed on a grand scale. 

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...the many PvP games

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Anyways...

The PvE<->PvP orientation question is kind of an old theme now, even on these forums. ^^
You may not have noticed that, but PvE<->PvP discussions have finally started to shift to conservative<->sandbox discussions.

So, instead of starting yet another thread about how PvE players outnumber PvP players and why this is the reason PvP players should be ignored, you should try to demonstrate how sandbox games will not be able to appeal to both PvP and PvE players.

Good luck with that :)

Originally posted by zaxxon23

Pvp is definately necessary to a good MMO, but I agree that games completely based on pvp have an extremely small niche audience.  This is not to say that a game based solely on pvp cannot exist (after all, the market is valid even if it is small).  It's just that pvp only games will likely not succeed on a grand scale. 

I also agree with one of the OP's statement, People dont like to play PvP based games because...There's something that they dont like or the dev's arent going to make it the way they want it. So what I have to say about that is, when you can program and make a game of your own just shut it and move on.

I just hope I dont offend anyone, which I is unlikely...

LoL

PvP games?

You can't make a PvE game and throw together some PvP servers as an afterthought and call it a PvP game.

Yes, we PvPers cry for a PvP game, but we aren't gonna play a piece of crap game. We aren't going to play a game that has empty promises of PvP, and then turns out to be another game catered to the watered down PvE market.

PvPers aren't playing Cabal because it sucks. If they made Hello Kitty PvP edition, you can't come whining to us that there are no PvPers playing the game. Of course we aren't going to play that. That's not what we want.

We want a GOOD game that is designed from the ground up with PvP in mind. If Blizzard made World of Warcraft 2, and only had PvP rulesets, but with gameplay as polished as WoW, I GUARANTEE you that every PvPer would flock to it, and probably many PvE players would jump ship as well.

It's easy to cater to the PvE market. You throw together a dungeon and some monsters and tell some players to go kill it. PvP on the other hand... it's a different story. You can't make a game and just tell us to go kill eachother. There are so many facets and so many factors in PvP. We're picky. We aren't so easily please, and we aren't so quick to buy into a shitty product.

Just to add to Admiralnlson's first point, to make your point of "Many PvP" games make sense you would have too look at all PvP games. Pure PvP games are imensly successful by pure PvP I mean counter strike, CoD4 and  any other game that is purely PvP (He never said MMORPG)

The fact is very few games can balance PvP and PvE since most games build on their PvE first and add PvP second which doesn't make sense for balance terms. Balancing the characters and skills against each class at different levels then generating the monsters / PvE encounters around those numbers would make a much more balanced game.

Unfortunately no game has attempted this yet (that has been released to my knowledge.) Looking at APB  they kept talking about stats but no grind or leveling  so i'm assuming due to the fact it is a Purely PvP game they have the characters and the stats balanced out for how long a person has played / their skill at the game. Now the have the perfect basis for a amazing PvP and PvE game they just don't want PvE (from what I've read).

Your idea of "pvp" is not the same pvp the pvpers want.

And just FYI, PvP is a BIG MARKET. Bigger than most think.

We are here. We're all just waiting for something to tickle our fancy.

Pre-Ren UO was built on it's PvP foundation.

AC was built on it's PvP.

Shadowbane was built on it's PvP foundation.

Even Star Wars Galaxies was built on it's PvP foundation.

All of these games have changed vastly since they started because gaming companies are sell-outs and drool at the thought of getting a few more subscribers. PvPers are long term players. We build communities and play the game to play against other people. PvE players play the game and then have nothing left to do once they have seen it all. You reach the cap and get all your cool armor and are left wondering what to do.

If a single game could capture the PvP market the way WoW has captured the PvE market, it would dominate MMOs, and probably have the most outstanding long-term player base ever. The only problem is that no game company has really figured out how to do it.

where did you get this idea? take pvp out of wow and guildwars and see what happpens. where did all the fun go?

Originally posted by sonicsix

...the many PvP games out there flounder since they obviously don't have the one feature YOU want. It could be amazing except for [insert your special pvp rule here] so you won't play that one.

...in games that offer both PvE and PvP, PvE population GREATLY outnumbers PvP population. Then you end up trying to balance PvP and end up ruining PvE.

...in Games like Cabal Online where you have 3 PvE servers and 14 or so PvP servers, you can hardly get on a PvE server due to it being full, the PvP servers are sparsely populated and the FFA PvP server is a ghost town.

It just seems odd that many people don't realize that PvP is a horrible idea when trying to appeal to the masses.  You can make the absolute best game in the world with every feature anyone could dream of and then you add PvP and you kill it.  PvE'ers (those that pay the bills) simply won't give the game a second look.  Why is this so hard to understand?

i hope you arent talking about the North American CABAL. cause well once it hits mid afternoon or so, its packed. both servers and almost every channel is full. need to see for your self? ogplanet.com hosts it.