Age of Conan

Never, ever ever have I understood this.

Yeah I played EQ back in the day, I've lost levels to dying.   No it wasn't fun, no it didn't add to the challenge, all it did was piss me right the ______ off.

MOST of us play MMO's for fun, not to be ticked off at the experience.   I can handle a harder DP if I die because of my own idiocy, but the number of times that lag, bugs or the like (say my priest just disconnected as we started the big fight..) means for every "Dang it Vic, that was DUMB" death there are 2-3 more "@#($@(@#" deaths.

I don't pay good money to suffer like that, and guess what kiddies, most people don't either.  I wish each MMO would launch with a "Hardcore DP" server.  If only to make a point about how few people would really play on one for extended periods of time.  

Oh, throw in PVP induced DP of any real penalty.   Guys, this isn't the days of UO and EQ, welcome to reality, people play for enjoyment, not for some artificial challenge foisted on them by people who need to prove their toughness in a video game.

Originally posted by MrVicchio

Never, ever ever have I understood this.

 

Yeah I played EQ back in the day, I've lost levels to dying.   No it wasn't fun, no it didn't add to the challenge, all it did was piss me right the ______ off.

 

MOST of us play MMO's for fun, not to be ticked off at the experience.   I can handle a harder DP if I die because of my own idiocy, but the number of times that lag, bugs or the like (say my priest just disconnected as we started the big fight..) means for every "Dang it Vic, that was DUMB" death there are 2-3 more "@#($@(@#" deaths.

 

I don't pay good money to suffer like that, and guess what kiddies, most people don't either.  I wish each MMO would launch with a "Hardcore DP" server.  If only to make a point about how few people would really play on one for extended periods of time.  

 

Oh, throw in PVP induced DP of any real penalty.   Guys, this isn't the days of UO and EQ, welcome to reality, people play for enjoyment, not for some artificial challenge foisted on them by people who need to prove their toughness in a video game.

 

 

I agree with your opinion.

Im not of the PvP persuasion 100%, I only dabble in that activity in any MMO I play and the PvP is a small side dish to the main course of the PvE Story.

That said when I do PvP I do it casually and although many people want a challenge, Id say ruining others gameplay by stealing their gear or adding a massive detrimental effect for dying is not a challenge but more a sadistic fantasy.

Fighting others and bettering them should be the only challenge you need, why do you want to humilate and cripple others at the same time. Obviously not everyone thinks like me and there are some that revel in such things but Im 'hoping' they arent the majority.

I can safely say that if they implemented a system like that I would not PvP. Like has been said by the OP there are other factors you have to take into consideration like lag, disconnections, or general bugs that could cause someone to die and causing penalisations in these casses would be harsh.

I think the best way to cater for these blood thirsty players would be to put them all on one server and let them nuke each other to the end of days, as for general servers leave it out is my opinion.

EQ has nothing on what most of these guys want for a DP. Most of the hardcore minority want player looting, perma- death, bla bla bla...

I remember losing levels and having to get my corpse out of the middle of Unrest... quite a few times. Its not fun. It actually sucks. But it makes you not want to die. It makes you pick good groups. And it makes you a better player.

I for one hope to see a similar type of DP given. I dont enjoy hardcore player looting or insane exp. decrease, but a nice hard smack in the face feels good every once in a while.

Oh dear lord mentioning DP with AoC can make someone have wrong ideas.

On topic people want harsh death penalty's because they think it's hardcore instead of fluffy carebearness.

If they can fool their mind with that fine by me :p

All games should launch with many server choices: FFA PvP, minimal PvP, Harsh DP, minor DP, perma-death...  The problem is that most likely all but 1-2 of the servers would have such low populations that they could not be self supporting.  Maybe companies should have a set server profit goal [I know - most likely the amount would be set to infinity] and use a sliding scale for players - $10/month for the highly populated servers, $15 for the medium, and $50 for the 200 player max server.  People could pay for the right to be uber...

Originally posted by MrVicchio

Never, ever ever have I understood this.

 

Yeah I played EQ back in the day, I've lost levels to dying.   No it wasn't fun, no it didn't add to the challenge, all it did was piss me right the ______ off.

 

MOST of us play MMO's for fun, not to be ticked off at the experience.   I can handle a harder DP if I die because of my own idiocy, but the number of times that lag, bugs or the like (say my priest just disconnected as we started the big fight..) means for every "Dang it Vic, that was DUMB" death there are 2-3 more "@#($@(@#" deaths.

 

I don't pay good money to suffer like that, and guess what kiddies, most people don't either.  I wish each MMO would launch with a "Hardcore DP" server.  If only to make a point about how few people would really play on one for extended periods of time.  

 

Oh, throw in PVP induced DP of any real penalty.   Guys, this isn't the days of UO and EQ, welcome to reality, people play for enjoyment, not for some artificial challenge foisted on them by people who need to prove their toughness in a video game.

 

 

I also wish they would launch harsher DP servers, so that I could play them.

Yep, I have been ticked off in games at unfortunate deaths, but you know what?

To me, without real risk, there isnt real triumpth.

I have played countless low/ no DP games since '99, and I have to say that I personally am bored sick and tired of the porridgy no-low-point no-high-point gameplay where everyone is a tourist, when they should be an adventurer. I am bored bored bored of feeling no fear when I enter an unexplored region, because I know I will just respawn unaffected if I die, and I am bored bored bored of feeling no anticipation before a major battle, because I know that failiure has no price.

I honestly think we, or at least the majority of us, are past the EQ1 point of constant LDs, horrendous lag, and technical glitches that you seem to be basing your opinion on... Sure, they still happen, but not really nearly often enough to base an entire game design philosophy on. I have the feeling you havent adjusted your PoV on this subject to reflect the reality of technology now, 6+ years later. Your opinion seems a little outdated tbh.

In short, I am glad you enjoy the... 'relaxation' of ez mode no DP play, but I personally want something deeper. To me, without feeling the lows, you can never experience the true highs.

     I see these types of threads all the time on a lot of forums for a lot of sites and the arguments are always the same.  There's the 'Why would you want a harsh Death Penalty?  That makes a game less fun!' crowd, and the 'Why would you want NOT want a harsh Death Penalty?  That makes the game less fun!' crowd.  My response is almost always as follows:

Think back to the classic console days, for example; Super Mario Bros.  Remember when you finally beat the game?  You didn't do it on the 1st try, (probably, ) and you probably started over quite a few times, not just a stage re-start, but a 'from the beginning' re-start.  You probably got pissed off a few times and went and did something else for a while from time to time, (or you broke controllers, and yelled at your TV, etc.  )  It's fairly likely that everyone who played the game had similar experiences, and the point is this;  You knew you only got 3 chances to get it right, before you would have to go back to the beginning and do it all over again, and when you got a little further than you had the time before, you probably got excited about reaching a new level and by the challenge of making it even further.  The excitement factor could easily be multiplied if you were on your last life at the time.

THAT is what a death penalty is supposed to accomplish.

Now, on the other side of that coin is good ol' 'God Mode' in Doom for example.  You had no reason to do anything the way the game was supposed to be played; infinite health, armor, and ammo?  Do what you want it doesn't matter.  Run through the whole game w/ the Chainsaw if you want.  Nothing to hold you back!  Sure it's fun for a while, but you know that because there was no drawback for anything you did or for how you approached your progress through the game, when you made it to the end you probably weren't impressed.

As it applies to an MMO, the philosophies implemented today don't tend to deviate far from 'Death Penalty = Pause to collect my stuff again.'  which is sad in my opinion.  That generates zero desire for me to figure out what I did wrong, or try a different approach to accomplishing a task; cause it won't matter if I fail.

So, to begin to close out this already overly-lengthy post, I can't throw my hat in w/ either philosophy in good conscience because I see merits and flaws on both sides.  Reward without Risk is not a reward worth gaining.  Penalty without Compassion is Punishment, with no lessons learned. (There is a difference between a Penalty and a Punishment.)

As to what I subscribe to as the best death penalty?  The original SWG was on the right track.  Whoever came up w/ the XP penalty / level loss penalty, (I blame Gygax personally, ) was just plain mean.  OG-SWG hit you where it really hurt; your stats.  That always made TONS more sense to me then 'I got hurt, and forgot a lot of stuff I did...'  OG-SWG you got your ass handed to you and you saw / felt it when you tried to just wade back in the the thick of things again:  You got your ass handed to you again because you were just beaten within an inch of your life moron; you're hurt! 

(The only point I would deviate from w/ OG-SWG would be to eventually hit the point of permanent attribute loss if injuries were ignored for a prolonged period of time.)

If you made it to the end of this; you get a 10% XP bonus for the next post you make that contributes to a conversation, instead of detracting from it. 

I enjoy having a death penalty (and looting)  in PVP or PVE because it makes me really "care" about the consequences of my actions. 

I think in any fight it should be more like real life, you really shouldn't take a chance unless you have a reasonable expectation of winning.  I despise PVP games like WOW where people thoughtlessly hurl themselves into fight after fight (like a FPS) because there's no real penalty for dying.

Which is why I guess I play EVE, because if I screw up in either PVE or PVE, it will cost me.  Just the other night I got careless in a PVE mission and suddenly saw my shields and then armor rapidly stripped away by a horde of NPC's.

I quickly targeted a nearby system and pleaded with my Battleship to hurry up and warp. I was 1/2 into structure (almost dead) when I finally made it out.

Its the rush you experience in moments like that which are totally missing from a game with no penalties.

OK, so not everyone needs that sort of excitement, but I do.

Whenever there is a FFA PVP server in a game, I always play a character on it.  (normally my second) Yet, I don't like ganking, not a big fan of PVP actually.  So why am I there? Because it adds to the challenge tremendously to accomplish the PVE objectives when someone is always trying stomp you in the process. 

Also, if anyone makes you mad, or is camping your mobs, you just flatten them.  It just adds so much more depth to the game play, other wise its just another boring cruise through mobs you can't lose to.

Look at LotRO. Some folks get so bored with it they actually do their best to obtain the "Undying" Title by playing the game totally safe in order to reach certain levels w/o a death.  That has zero appeal to me, I can't even imagine wanting to play a game that way. Me, I try to pull 4 mobs 3 levels above me just to see if I can survive the fight just to remain interested.