General Discussion

I think the problem here is the educating of our young men about women in the first place.  I too understand what you are saying  in regards to the reactions of men to an attractive woman. I can meet someone on a game and  only intend friendship, and they always seem to want to change that as soon as they see me... My best friends are all guys, in fact I had to punch my best friend in the mouth for trying to kiss me once, it is amazing that we are still best friends till this day.  Women and men can be friends without it being sexual in nature, though I  think that males for the most part need to think with their heads instead of  below their beltline.

Though I would also like to add that alot of women respond to attractive females in an unappropriate manner as well, I went on a fishing trip with some of my friends I met in game and some friends I knew before I started playing.  A girl I had met on the game was dating one of the guys that attended.  I had considered her a friend of mine and had no interest in her companion.  After the fishing trip she started sending me crazy emails saying that her man was no longer allowed to talk to me and alot of nonsense . They actually broke up over that arguement even though I had already decided I thought it better for the peace in my life to not talk to either of them.

Originally posted by airhead

 

3. no. It's not wrong. It's just the way it is. Even in real life, people play up to social stereotypes of one's gender to get what they want. How can one possibly suggest that a virtual world have a higher degree of morality than the real world? no way.

4. yes. Now this pisses me off. Using females and sex to sell stuff. Objectifying women... I hate that. There is enough of that in modern day commercials. It basically turns women into a piece of meat. Females excel at so many things, and consistute 50+ percent of the worlds population, and hey, I saw my 3 kids being born.... no way in hell a guy could deal with that.

If you're so against the objectifying of women, why are you objectifying the representation of one that you control in the eyes of the people you manipulate for gain? You also forgot the last question in my last post.

What benefits does the flexibility of this choice create when taking place in an environment that decreases a number of social inhibitions and how do we overcome the disadvantages?

Think worst case scenario for interests' sake.

Originally posted by NoUrbanLight

 

Originally posted by airhead

 

3. no. It's not wrong. It's just the way it is. Even in real life, people play up to social stereotypes of one's gender to get what they want. How can one possibly suggest that a virtual world have a higher degree of morality than the real world? no way.

4. yes. Now this pisses me off. Using females and sex to sell stuff. Objectifying women... I hate that. There is enough of that in modern day commercials. It basically turns women into a piece of meat. Females excel at so many things, and consistute 50+ percent of the worlds population, and hey, I saw my 3 kids being born.... no way in hell a guy could deal with that.

There are a million things I can say to other points in this thread, but this struck me as a big one.

 

1. If you're so against the objectifying of women, why are you objectifying the representation of one that you control in the eyes of the people you manipulate for gain? You also forgot the last question in my last post.

2. What benefits does the flexibility of this choice create when taking place in an environment that decreases a number of social inhibitions and how do we overcome the disadvantages?

Think worst case scenario for interests' sake.

1. Why would I practice something that objectifies women when I'm against it? Let me preface by saying that I do NOT think playing a female toon means I'm objectifying women, and I don't think pretending to be a female toon to get some kid to give me a good item is stealing. Maybe he got a good feeling from it! Maybe his overall fantasy experience and enjoyment of the game increased?!  Who are we to say otherwise?

(NOTE: I was on the objectifying thing because of how game devs make the female toons look like hookers, responding to your 4th question. Playing a sexy acting female toon is not what I was referring to, as I answered no to the question before that with reasons. So for the record, I do not grant that I've actually objectified women... games and commercials have.).

However, I will play along with your categorizations.... here goes: There are numerous reasons I would do such a thing: I'm a hypocrite. I'm selfish and greedy. My shoes are too tight and heart is 3 sizes too small. I want young people to get used to being let down, to feel the negativity of disappointment, to not just think, but know that there is no god, no morals, and they are soon to die and turn to dust, and there is no meaning or morality in life. But I guess the biggest reason is: because I can.   (balls in your court now, to show why someone who thinks like this should not be in your world. What you gonna do? ban me? lol)

2. I'm trying to wrap my head around your phrasing of the question. There are pros and cons of letting  people play a gender different than what they are in real life. (what are they?). And how do we eliminate and/or minimize the cons while keeping the pros.... is that right?

PROS: It lets people explore life from the other side. To imagine what it would feel like to be a female in a social setting, with nothing but teenage boys hitting on you about every topic. I think this would be a beneficial educational experience. It also let's one explore the degrees and methods that could be used to manipulate the opposite sex to one's advantage; and from that, be better able to recognize said activities in real life. And of course there is the pixelated look... i.e. personally, I rather look at a female's ass than male's... oh well.

CONS: And what are the cons? I believe if you are going to say they must be minimized, then you should at least list a few don't you think? The only one I could think of, (you said think worst case), is that a pedophile acts like a female, induces some kid player to meet outside of game, then rapes and kills him (stuff like that).....

Ok. That's bad. Definately a con. How do you minimize that? You NEVER meet anyone outside of game without a group at a minimum, and you always assume that one's digital self image (using matrix terminology i think) has NOTHING to do with one's real life existence, (something numerous others here (not just me) have been saying over and over). The onus is on the individual, as it is with all social interaction (email, myspace, and MMOs). Of course we can find and lock up pedophiles and we should, but ultimately, we need to teach everyone, starting at age 2, to not talk to strangers....

What other cons or disadvantages are you referring to?

One interesting difference I've noted in players is that some see their characters as extensions of themselves, while others do not.  I play female characters sometimes, and will think of my character as "she," not "I."  Third person.  The scantily clad elven babe I have total control over. 

If I thought my character was supposed to represent ME, I'd be a lot more uncomfortable running around as the wrong gender.  Yet then some people call my character a he, in public chat, meaning me? Or they call me a she in tells, as if I'm my character?  The difference of perspective can get a little weird.

Originally posted by Sunder

 

Originally posted by deviliscious

I would have to say anyone that tries to separate what you do while you are at your computer and what you do anywhere else into separate worlds are the ones that need evaluation.  Players are played by REAL people,  They spend REAL time working on them. That is not pretend. Now when you look at games  like second life where pixel items cost real money, and those thing provide REAL income for those people, and People can Really get sued over things in the game, the reality of this issue becomes even more clear.  Who ever came up with the idea that just because you do it on a computer it  isn't real? That in itself is the thing that is crazy.

I have stayed out of this thread ever since my dear friend Devil here became so active, but I must comment at this point.  (I will try not to step on your toes like in the last thread we bantered on however) At any rate, as I have always been clear about, both in games and on this forum, I am a male.  I am married.  I play games with my family.  It is common place for me to say "A family that plays together, stays together" and on that premise alone, I will argue this point til the day you die (Coz I will outlive anyone who is obviously such a moron)  I am a REAL person, playing a real GAME.  I play a role while in said games.  Be it that of male, female, warrior, magician, or intergalactic applepie-saber wielding jedi... etc.  It is QUITE easy to see that these things are not real.  For anyone to take them so seriously and so real is rather ignorant, or juvenile.  I will let you decide which category you fit in better.  People spend REAL time of their lives playing games like monopoly.  That does not make anyone, nor does it imply that anyone wishes to be, money grubbing investment bankers.  It means that people play a game for the sake of enjoyment.  As far as people opening law suits against people who play online games... that shows the level of their idiocy also.  I do not live my life to cater to idiots, and will not conform to their petty small mindedness.  That goes for lawsuits, or people who treat online games as their personal corner strweet bar and want to go lookin for some easy ass.

 

Quickly, to address a comment a couple people made in earlier posts, It is not the people who are males playing females, or females playing males that truly have a "Problem" so much as the people who are sitting at their computers and see a "hot chick" saunter by and decide they should try to hit them up for some action outside of the realm of the actual game world.  If however a male player playing a male toon see's a female toon in a game and decides to approach them... in game, that is perfectly acceptable.  When you sign into a game as a toon, you sign in to that "reality" (I can hear the flames already) and must accept the ups and downs that come with it.  Be it that some male pig is always hitting on you (Women and Men deal with it daily in the real world, get used to it and stop whining) or that some alleged "young female" is always asking for your stuff.  (Have kids?  Nuff said) 

In the end, if you happen to encounter a shallow mind who does not want to talk to you because you are a female playing a male, or a male playing a female... quite frankly, you are better off without them.  It is the closed minded people who try to segregate everyone and place everyone in their own little niche boxes and keep people from just being what they are... another multi-faceted individual that make the world a worse place.  Racial, gender, and religious bias and hate anyone?  No thanks.  I get enough in the real world.  I have no room for another hitler to rise up in a game setting. :)

 

maybe Devil is in need of a man LOL

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Originally posted by Dameonk
Glad to contribute to an interesting poll.
I am male and I have always made male characters. In-fact, in some Korean MMO games that force you to be female to be the type of class that I want to play I just quit and uninstall right there.
I consider my character an extension of my own person & want it to resemble something close to myself, or at least someone that I would want to be. My "avatar", as it were.

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You hit the nail on the head there on what I am like as well.

Again, why stop at merely gender?

Why not ask players if they're negro or jewish in real life?

I mean, can you imagine? That guy playing a white mage MIGHT ACTUALLY BE A BLACK PERSON, or EVEN A JEW!!111 How outrageous would if be if they misled you into believing otherwise??

Does this sound offensive, prejudiced, or even ridiculous to you? Cool, now we're on the same page.

Seriously, instead of worrying about the real-life gender of someone's pixelated avatar, perhaps you should be more concerned if they're even old enough to have pubic hair?

Pedophilia trumps homophobia in my book.

I'm a virtual transsexual most of the time.