General Discussion

Originally posted by elvenangel

I dont know how anyone can dislike the live action combat system...its not twitch considering there is an 'auto' attack button & there's plenty of delays depending on if your using skills, changing weapons, or casting spells. I personally love it and I hate real twitch combat games since I usually suck ass at them. 

You only swing as fast the weapon lets you and if you dont know what your doing your going to die no matter how fast you are.   Once you get past the lower levels of the game you have to actually use strategy if you want to be able to complete the some quests without a ton of deaths & entire party wipes which can really be a miserable experience if your at the end of a really long chain. 

I only played the DDO trial for a couple of hours, and while I'm sure what you're saying is true, first impressions matter a lot and the impression I got was that I was playing some weird mix of D&D and Diablo...

"Oh look, a spider!" *clickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclick* "OK, it's dead!  On to the next!"

I hate twitch systems in MMOs.. MMO combat should be about strategy and tactics, not who can click the fastest/most accurately.  But that's just my opinion, of course.

I hate twitch systems in MMOs.. MMO combat should be about strategy and tactics, not who can click the fastest/most accurately.  But that's just my opinion, of course.

Weapon speed isn't affected at all by how fast you click.  Weapon speed is weapon speed.  Also, your number of attacks per round doesn't increase until your BAB (Base Attack Bonus) does, as you level up.  Finally, because tumbling, flanking, active shield blocking, and just plain out getting out of the way all have an effect (it's real time, if the bad guy swings and you're now 5 feet away, it doesn't still hit you)...strategy is pretty important.

Ok well I have gotten enough responses and they confirm a lot of what I had heard before.

So let me put this hypothesis out which is sort of the reason I started the thread.  I think using D&D was actually something that doomed DDO to being niche game.

The multiple different preconceptions about what D&D should be and what an MMO should were bound to alienate many people when they see their wants no fully implemented.

You have people who think D&D is about dungeon crawls.  Looking at the modules this is not so wrong.  Lost Caversn of Tsogocanth, White Plume mountain, large parts of The Keep on the Border Lands, Vault of the drow al the way to Queen of the Demon Web pits.

At the same time you have D&D player who thinks its all about exploration and an open world.  They are not wrong either.  As long as they had that kind of DM.

On the other end we have MMO expectation.  About being a "world".  About sideline activities like crafting and economy.

Each person has various things they think should be in D&D and in an MMO.  When you shove the two together and in addition make a very different combat style.  I think the you were bound to be a niche game.  Because not only are people's ideas about D&D different between each other but trying to smoosh D&D and an MMO together.

Basically I think both D&D and the idea of what an MMO is carry too much baggage and that baggage is extremely variable between people.  That it was impossible to make a version of DDO that satisfied everyone and still be a quality product.

I think they were doomed from the start, no matter what they did.

I have to agree and disagree Gestalt.  I'm not sure you can call the game doomed.  It has a steady base of players that the developers now cater to and work hard for.   Even their GM support team is fantastic.   I do believe your right int he fact DDO is a niche game.   Its not an utter failure but it'll never climb the ladder of say EQ1 and attract more and more players.   I think it'll always keep its loyal base around and maybe that loyal base will bring in new people but I think the devs have decided to just go with it instead of trying to say NGE it which would destroy the game for some of us. 

If DDO had been a serious EQ style game I'd probably of stopped playing it by now since I'll be honest I came to DDO to get a break from the overly serious stuffy attitude that other game communities have.  Thats not to say that there aren't those who don't act this way but it seems to minimally effect the game for me. 

DDO is a really good niche game and you either like it when you try it...or you don't its really no different than any other game.   I personally loved DDO's first 5 quests and its low lvl solo only quests.  I know DDO is a group game and I've resigned to that and if it wasnt' for my friends...I'd probably of left.

BTW DDO's combat is not twitch if you don't want to Live Action style time your swings just hit Auto Attack there is an auto attack button (to a poster further up).  It just helps to use the live action style for some tactics (not to mention it keeps you awake unlike other games where you can just *turn on auto attack n stand there maybe even get a soda) against large raid bosses where you have to break the raid in half and time out the attacks to keep the boss from wiping out half the party.

I think they were doomed from the start, no matter what they did.

 

I think your entire premise is flawed.  I think they were struck with an inability to appeal to everyone, focused on a specific group, and have provided a fantastic game for their needs.  That game, and that group continues to thrive and grow.

Originally posted by theniffrig

I played the trail last year and didn't really give it a chance. Then a while back I tried it again and this time I did give it a chance to win me over. I really enjoyed the game. It was very different to WOW and thats what I was looking for, something different.

The combat system is brilliant. I also didn't mind the small 'instanced' world. The dungeons are brilliant too. Soloing early dungeons in the game reminded me of playing The Legend of Zelda games (which are my favourite fantasy games). However, as I increased in level, I found it hard to find a group sometimes & when I did get into a group, I found they raced around the Dungeons (because they had done them before and knew where to go). This even happend when I mentioned that 'I had never done the Dungeon before' and to 'go slow'. It kinda has killed the game for me. That & the fact that I'm really enjoying the solo content in the game, but whats the point of paying for an MMO if I don't group with other players? I dont want to pay a monthly sub for a solo game.

The other game I'm currently playing is VG. This game is like the opposite extreme of DDO. Here you have a huge world to adventure in with no real instancing. But, this game might just be too big and open for some people. DDO is too small and closed for some people.

It's hard to put my finger on, but none of the MMO's I've tried have held my attention playing them for several hour sessions at a time other than WOW & SWG (pre-CU). I guess the real 'problem' i have with DDO & any other MMO I dont like is that they don't hold my attention for hours on end.

I think you put your finger on a very important but yet subtle issue .. balance. Too much instancing and the game is like single-player game. Too little and you have camping. Too small a world and the game does not play like a virtual world. Too big a world and places seem to be empty.

Those are not black or white issues that can be settle as "instances are good" or "instances are bad". It takes a lot of judgement  and experience to strike the right balance. I believe WOW is so successful partly because they get these kind of trade-offs done right.

Originally posted by elvenangel

I have to agree and disagree Gestalt.  I'm not sure you can call the game doomed.  It has a steady base of players that the developers now cater to and work hard for.   Even their GM support team is fantastic.   I do believe your right int he fact DDO is a niche game.   Its not an utter failure but it'll never climb the ladder of say EQ1 and attract more and more players.   I think it'll always keep its loyal base around and maybe that loyal base will bring in new people but I think the devs have decided to just go with it instead of trying to say NGE it which would destroy the game for some of us. 

 

If DDO had been a serious EQ style game I'd probably of stopped playing it by now since I'll be honest I came to DDO to get a break from the overly serious stuffy attitude that other game communities have.  Thats not to say that there aren't those who don't act this way but it seems to minimally effect the game for me. 

 

DDO is a really good niche game and you either like it when you try it...or you don't its really no different than any other game.   I personally loved DDO's first 5 quests and its low lvl solo only quests.  I know DDO is a group game and I've resigned to that and if it wasnt' for my friends...I'd probably of left.

 

BTW DDO's combat is not twitch if you don't want to Live Action style time your swings just hit Auto Attack there is an auto attack button (to a poster further up).  It just helps to use the live action style for some tactics (not to mention it keeps you awake unlike other games where you can just *turn on auto attack n stand there maybe even get a soda) against large raid bosses where you have to break the raid in half and time out the attacks to keep the boss from wiping out half the party.

I would go so far as to say it might be more popular if it was NOT D&D.

Consider this NWN is heavily instanced.  But not an MMO.  The instancing problem many people have is because of the MMO side not the D&D side, yet getting rid of instancing would mess with things on the D&D side.

Its a catch 22 for many people in the audience.  But most people do not look for catch 22s they just figure out what they like and then react.

I know ..and I agree lol :) My agreeable ness is a rare feature.

I like DDO as a niche game...though your right if it didn thave the D&D moniker it'd of probably done alot better.  As a D&D pnp player I admit had alot of expectations ... so when the game launched i pretty much just shelved my copy till well 6 months ago!

Originally posted by Vincenz

 

  On top of that, it doesn't even have a DnD feel because to me there is no camp