Pirates of the Burning Sea

Originally posted by Gyrus

 

Interesting you should mention Monopoly.  Sadly for you I have done some serious analysis of Monopoly in the past (when I was really into game design)...

Monopoly actually has a couple of things in common with todays MMOs.
Do you know that when it was first shown to Parker it had "52 design flaws"?
http://www.hasbro.com/games/kid-games/monopoly/default.cfm?page=History/history
And Monopoly does actually suffer from inflation in the same way as MMOs and for the same reason:
PASS GO - COLLECT $200.

Also, due to Monopoly's design the game can rapidly stalemate if players DON'T agree to trade properties "off the board" via negotiation... oh oh... what's that then?  Starting to look a lot like Gold Farming?

{FWIW Junior Monopoly is actually a better game (in terms of game design) IMHO.}

 

As for the rest of your post: As for it being "against the rules" - OK fair point - but WHY? 
Again we come back to weaknesses in the virtual economies.
It causes inflation?  No, being able to endlessly produce money causes inflation.
You sum it up nicely with the faucet and drain analogy.

You again mention issues which fall back on game design and spamming of chat channels.
So once again, what is the issue here.  If it's the chat spam - target that.

If it is against the rules, it is cheating.  Cheaters SHOULD be barred from playing the game.  I'm not arguing here whether it *should be* against the rules or not - but it is, and if it is, then banning those players is the right thing to do.

Yes, virtual economies are generally weak and easily abused.  So rules are set into place to help prevent that sort of abuse.  People who break those rules for profit are hurting every player.

Should the devs work at developing a better economic model?  Perhaps.  But should the players feel like they are being ethical cheating at the game because there is a flaw in the design?  I would think not.

Yes, those economies will eventually run into trouble anyway, even without gold farmers.  But it will happen much, much faster with them.

Originally posted by Owyn

 

You completely ignored my point regarding Monopoly;

No, I didn't.  Your point was that Gold Farming is "cheating".
My point is "Why?"

What is the issue with it?  Why is it against the rules?  Just because the games company says so?
How does it hurt the game?  Or other players?
The only convincing arguement I see against it (even from Developers) is that Gold Farmers "chat spam".
All the other issues are to do with game design.

Originally posted by Owyn

 

... lets use chess instead then.  Would you keep playing with someone who switches pieces every time you turn your head away?  Or would you play ANY game with someone who routinely cheats?  

Look, I play a lot of games.  Not all the games I play are "balanced" - and that's OK - so long as you know the rules before you start.  Some games are actually MORE interesting and challenging because of this.
Would I play Chess with someone who switches pieces?
YES actually.  I play both Knightmare and Proteus Chess http://www.sjgames.com/ourgames/chess.html

Originally posted by Owyn

 

YYes, virtual economies are generally weak and easily abused.  So rules are set into place to help prevent that sort of abuse.  People who break those rules for profit are hurting every player.

Should the devs work at developing a better economic model?  Perhaps.  But should the players feel like they are being ethical cheating at the game because there is a flaw in the design?  I would think not.

Yes, those economies will eventually run into trouble anyway, even without gold farmers.  But it will happen much, much faster with them. 

So, it comes down to design, or rather bad design by the Developers.
So the "rules" are a Stop-Gap measure to cover the flaws in that design?

Okay, fair enough.  But the long term solution then would be to deal with those flaws - not continue to waste resources repeatedly hunting down and banning "players" who don't care anyway?

Originally posted by Gyrus 

No, I didn't.  Your point was that Gold Farming is "cheating".
My point is "Why?"

What is the issue with it?  Why is it against the rules?  Just because the games company says so?
How does it hurt the game?  Or other players?
The only convincing arguement I see against it (even from Developers) is that Gold Farmers "chat spam".
All the other issues are to do with game design.

 

Reasons:

• Because gold farmers steal peoples accounts. they now have a vested interest in making money by using corrupted websites to hack peoples accounts or fake emails to entice people to give up their account information. Then they steal their items/money/characters and resell it.
• This also causes more overhead on customer service who have to deal with restoring accounts which in turns increases the wait time for people with real in game problems.
• Because gold farmers run 24 hour unattended farming macros to get currency all day long.  games are designed with economies to support typical playstyles which should generate X amount of currency in a play session.  Spread that across all the players to get an average.  When people use real world money to buy currency that is not limited to an average persons play time, because a gold farmer can run multiple accounts to meet demands of as many people that will buy, which will cause inflation.  Now a normal player must pay for inflated prices while still only able to earn X currency per hour.
• because a gold farmer will exploit a currency dupe bug to the extreme.  See examples of SWG/EQ2/Vanguard where the total amount of exploited currency in the game exceeded the legitimate currency in the game.  In one case in EQ2 exploiters duped 20% of the entire combined ingame economy  in ONE weekend.  Just think about that.   It's not like that can be dealt with easily either once the money gets into the economy.  Roll the server back and legit players lose what they were doing or remove it all and some legit player lose their money or lie and say you got it all without legit players losing anything which is impossible.
• Because gold farmers use stolen credit cards or just charge backs to their farming accounts which is a net loss that is eventually passed on to the entire player base.  It may come in increased costs or less money devoted to developing new content.  Either way you are funding their business even if you don't buy their product.
• Because all those automated farming characters take up a slot on the server.  Believe it or not a server can only hold so many connections and each farmer is one less real person to add to the community, guilds, PvP, etc. 
• Because they spam their currency selling advertisements in game that annoy the crap out of people and break immersion
• because a gold seller will not hesitate to break the EULA in any fashion that nets them income.  They will stomp all over another players play session if necessary to get what they want.  Ninja looting, kill stealing, training another player or just general griefing to make someone leave an area they want to farm.  They are not there to play the game and your playtime quality doesn't matter to them.

I have listed a few reason that show currency sellers have a negative impact on the entire playerbase universally so that a few people can get a leg up or skip doing something they don't want to.

Can you name the benefits that currency sellers offer the playerbase as a whole?  

Keep in mind all the negatives too....

Daffido11, your posts lists a lot of negative things in MMOs - are all these things attributed to Gold Farmers exclusively?
Are you seriously saying ALL Gold Farmers hack and steal accounts?
That's a bit like saying ALL PvPers are gankers?
Or how about ALL players who play Pirates are immature teenage griefers?

As an example the issue of Chat Spam comes up as an arguement against Gold Farmers.  Yet I have seen societies recruiting in chat too.  I find this chat spam just as annoying - yet is that OK if they are not Gold Farmers?

You mention 24 hour macros?
That may be true in other MMOs but in PotBS - it was FLS who designed in the 24 hour macro - by having labour accumulate in real time?

The economy 'dupe' as you call it is a game exploit and I have addressed this in post above.  Sure - maybe not honest - but as much the "fault" of the developer if you want to point fingers?
It goes against the intent of the game?  Oh really?  How do you know?  How do you know that the developer didn't put it in there specifically to allow players to make / recover a lot of money quickly?  (There might be a valid design reason for this).  The fact that a few players then 'exploit' this to the extreme is something the designer must account for.

Stolen Credit Cards?  This is a criminal matter.  The Developers need not deal with this.  Let the charge go through (don't ban them) and the problem will land in the lap of the Credit card Company and the local law enforcement.
Are you seriously saying that ALL Gold Farmers use stolen Credit Cards?  And they ALL get chargebacks?

Taking up a slot on the server.  OK - how is that different to a merchant player who goes AFK all the time taking up a slot?  So long as the game comapany gets payed???

Then you mention spam... (fair point - so target the spammers)

Then you mention a host of negative in game behaviours I have seen from any number of players - not just "Gold Farmers".

Positive things about Gold Farmers?
Well, I don't use them myself, because for me it's about personal achievement - but they do allow a new player to get a head start quickly and for very little effort (just some cash)
- Now as I say, that's not my thing - but many players want to do this because they hate grind etc.  My personal view is that if you are THAT impatient you should avoid MMOs... but that's just my opinion.

It also provides a way for players to "sell out" of a subscription they no longer want.
- So, if I sub up for 12 months and 2 months later decide I don't like the game - I can sell my stuff and get something back on my sub (assuming the company does not allow refunds)

So long as they don't use exploits, hacks etc they are the ultimate crafters.

If you don't use them - it doesn't really effect you though does it?
So what if little Johnny uses Mommy's CC to purchase 1000000 dubloon to buy a 1st rate ship of the line and a level 50 character?
He has no idea how to use it and will get pwned.
If that's the way he likes to play - I pity him and his family.

But I can still have fun regardless.

Originally posted by Mithrandolir

Kudos to them! I love it! Hit the buyers early, put a fear into them (need more than a 24 hour ban though) and you will see the sellers start to dwindle without a decent market here.

Below is reposted from VN

***********************************************

 

I don't wanna piss on your parade , but you cannot scare gold sellers , its chinese farmers doing a job they get paid to do , if you ban a account they just create a new one and continue from there.

Originally posted by Gishgeron

I kind of agree with Gyrus.  Gold Farming is teh result of bad design.  People who suggest it causes inflation apparently haven't yet figured out that most video games don't actually have an economy.  IN a real economy, there is a FINITE amount of money in circulation.  If more is introduced into circulation, the value of each individual note goes down.

 

In a lot of these video games, money is CONSTANTLY being produced from thin air.  Inflation is going to happen regardless of Gold Farming because the entire system is forcing it by not limiting the amount of money inside it.  In a perfect world, the would be very finite amounts of "gold".  That would create a true economy, where this set amount got passed around from vendor to vendor and player to player.  Eventually, you'd find a situation very similar to the world we see now...where some people would be very well off and others would never be.

 

But as long as these games still introduce money into the system from thin air....ingame economy will just never exist.

Actually, most games do have an economy pre built into them, and its true, gold farming can upset it.  Most games have money "drains" built into them to take cash out of the economy.  In DAOC it was the housing system, where a major house could cost 10 plat a week to maintain.  In WOW its the mount system, where players spend a fortune that vanishes into thin air.

The problem is farmers rarely spend money on such drains, they throw it all back into the economy, so their effect is more profound than a normal player and it is harder for the developers to adjust the drains to account for their impact w/o hurting the legitimate player.

I'm not against gold buying though, I think the effects are manageable, and they actually impart some benefits like selling rare item drops at a great frequency than a player would, since again, they rarely use them.  They also provide a lot of raw materials for sale in the economy that might never get there if left up to players to farm, since that tends to be more boring.

I'm not sure gold farmers sit and hack accounts. Why hack the account when you get money from that person? Thats just stupid.

But we have group of people that make fake mails and sometimes people don't see it's fake until it's too late.

That happens a lot with Bank accounts. You can read about it in the News or watch it on TV, still everytime there is a new fake Bank mail asking for login and password 200,000 people fall for it...