Originally posted by Kyleran

 

Besides, its obvious you've never played DAOC, where talent trees in a class really made a big difference in how they fought.  WOW wasn't the first, nor is it necessarily the best (IMO), I'd have to put it at a little better than average.

My thoughts exactly.  Spec customization was one of the things that made DAOC great.  Anyone know if Mythic is doing something similar with WAR?

PreNGE SWG was in a league of it's own. You could be a smuggler that used his fists, or a ranger that used a pistol or a carbine. You could even be a dancer that wielded a two handed vibrosword in  combat. You could mix and match skills any way you wanted.

If you want a real customisation for powers...try City of Villains/Heroes.  There are about 5 primary choices, 6 secondaries choices and 5 AT...this is 150 classes for each game...now you will often find a hybrid of you, but does a druid complains to see a shaman in EQ?  Not really.  Adds the epic/patrons and all the alternatives pools + the IO slotting and well...you will be customised and nobody will be identical to you...at worst some player will be similar if you take a cookie cutter.

If you want a real customisation for look...try City of Villains/Heroes.

And finally...CoV/H is simpler and easier to start, yet harder and more complex to master.  Which is what you want from a game, easier to start, harder to master...this is the way.

Originally posted by Vhaln

 

Originally posted by Kyleran

 

Besides, its obvious you've never played DAOC, where talent trees in a class really made a big difference in how they fought.  WOW wasn't the first, nor is it necessarily the best (IMO), I'd have to put it at a little better than average.

 

My thoughts exactly.  Spec customization was one of the things that made DAOC great.  Anyone know if Mythic is doing something similar with WAR?

The thing I miss the most from DAoC and that other devs never adapt for some obscur reason is how you don't have to rebuff constantly anyone.  You go to whatever the name of the screen, select who to buffs according to limits, and your done.

Buffs never fade, never goes away, you can't buff anyone outside of your group.  Simple and efficient.  Simple is good (not dumb).

I will never understand why other MMOs doesn't adopt this buffing system.  It is vastly superior, you adapt the buffs only when the group members change, and that is it.

Originally posted by Nomatica

I played many mmorpgs and i think blizzard is the only company that really perfected the talent system. And still does, i have yet to play a mmorpg with a AA/Talent system like WoWs, because for one reason.

When we play WoW from 1-40 40 talent points in there really is a TRUE change to the class it makes it feel like playing a whole class all together kind of like a new class. Once at 40 you can tell a major difference between a Prot war/ fury war/ arms war , Holy priest/Shadow priest, etc. I think talents are a must have in any mmorpg because it really allows you to be more unique to your class WoWs system is ALMOST skill based mixed with a level based system.

I Tried EQ2 talent system and for some reason it just doesnt hit the spot like WoWs does.

Erm...

You played 1 other game and decided that WoW is somehow the best at this? 

Hint:  The only TRUE character customization system is a 100% character skill tree system rather than a class/level system.  Currently there are exactly two titles that do this:  EVE and UO.  And both of them blow WoW out of the water in this area.  (Both are older to, which I find ironic).

well this thread gave me my laugh of the day.

Originally posted by Taram

 

Originally posted by Nomatica

I played many mmorpgs and i think blizzard is the only company that really perfected the talent system. And still does, i have yet to play a mmorpg with a AA/Talent system like WoWs, because for one reason.

When we play WoW from 1-40 40 talent points in there really is a TRUE change to the class it makes it feel like playing a whole class all together kind of like a new class. Once at 40 you can tell a major difference between a Prot war/ fury war/ arms war , Holy priest/Shadow priest, etc. I think talents are a must have in any mmorpg because it really allows you to be more unique to your class WoWs system is ALMOST skill based mixed with a level based system.

I Tried EQ2 talent system and for some reason it just doesnt hit the spot like WoWs does.

 

Erm...

You played 1 other game and decided that WoW is somehow the best at this? 

Hint:  The only TRUE character customization system is a 100% character skill tree system rather than a class/level system.  Currently there are exactly two titles that do this:  EVE and UO.  And both of them blow WoW out of the water in this area.  (Both are older to, which I find ironic).

 

In reality, changing "classes" via skills in EVE takes months of waiting, so I don't consider that to be a real option.

"WoW....true character customization"????

LMAO........ no seriously.......

Originally posted by Nomatica

 

Originally posted by rikilii

 

Originally posted by Nomatica

Originally posted by daarco

 

Originally posted by Nomatica

I played many mmorpgs and i think blizzard is the only company that really perfected the talent system. And still does, i have yet to play a mmorpg with a AA/Talent system like WoWs, because for one reason.

When we play WoW from 1-40 40 talent points in there really is a TRUE change to the class it makes it feel like playing a whole class all together kind of like a new class. Once at 40 you can tell a major difference between a Prot war/ fury war/ arms war , Holy priest/Shadow priest, etc. I think talents are a must have in any mmorpg because it really allows you to be more unique to your class WoWs system is ALMOST skill based mixed with a level based system.

I Tried EQ2 talent system and for some reason it just doesnt hit the spot like WoWs does.

 

 

Whow..whow...whow....whow....slow down.

First: The class/level system is a joke to the whole chracter creation system.

Second: Talent trees?? Is what what players of 2008 think is a character creation system??

What have becomes of MMOs? A couple of years ago we would laugh at this....now people agree its good. I dont understand what have happend here. 

Im to old for this *#¤#".

Can you name a better non skillbased leveling talent system?

Whoa..whoa...whoa....whoa....slow down.

 

Who said anything about "non-skillbased?"

I've never even played it, but I'm pretty sure that Eve Online takes the crown for current "successful" MMOs.

SWG pre-NGE also had WoW beat hands down in terms of customizability.

whoa..whao...whao....whoa....slow down.

 

 

You totally bypassed everything i said, i said can you name a mmorpg with a better talent system than WoWs that is NOT a skill based mmorpg not a level base.

Although the talent system does allow some flexibility it cannot compare.

1. Stats, in DDO you place your stat points where you want. Want to make a Dex based Two Weapon Fighter go ahead, feel like making a Strength based Fighter, options there, want to make a Hit Point tank? Load up on your Con, feel like making a defencive tank with Combat Expertise? Put a few extra points into Int.

2. Feats, the Feats are similar to talents except you are not locked into any one "line" at a time. (with the exception of directing your character towards certain feat "lines" that have hefty feat pre-reqs) Feel like maxing out the Two Handed line you can, only want to go part way down the Two handed line and add Combat Expertise, Improved Trip and Sunder? Options there. Want to make a Trap-Monkey Rogue direct your feats towards Skills, want to make a Combat Rogue load up on combat Feats, want to mix the two go right ahead.

3. Enhancements, to further customize your character you gain 4 Action points a level which can be spent down class/race enhancement lines.

4. Multiclassing, DDO allows multiclassing of up to three classes opening up enhancement lines for those classes up to the level you have in that class. Want to make a 7/7 Ranger/Rogue you can, feel like making a "Batman" build (Paladin/Fighter/Rogue) and do a little of everything? You can. Want to make an Evasion tank splash 2 levels of Rogue onto your Fighter or Paladin. Feel like making a Trap disarming Cleric splash a level of Rogue in there. Battle Cleric splash a level of Fighter or Paladin and pump up that Strength. Splash a level of Sorceror onto Cleric to boost your Spell Point total and gain double SP from items. The possibilities are literaly mind-boggeling and you see some extreamly strange builds out there.

Originally posted by Kulthos

 

Which is sad considering that both games are renowned for griefers making them unplayable. 

 

In reality, changing "classes" via skills in EVE takes months of waiting, so I don't consider that to be a real option.

Wait, I'm confused. How is 'character customization' being able to become anything you want at any second?

I suppose being able to go from a warrior to a healer to a spaceship captain to some sort of animal in a few seconds is 'customization', but how is that a 'character' when you're *everything*? That doesn't sound unique at all.

Originally posted by Sunrider

you want true customization and character creation? go play city of heroes.

Seriously, if you think WoW can even come close to CoX in character customization now that inventions are out well then I would like a sample of whatever drugs you are on, because they must be pretty good.

Power customization alone is better.  Then add in visual customization. Base creation customizations.  Far more options and variation for power choice.  Its just not even close

And frankly I do not really like the talent system style.  I would rather have something more like D&D feats than talents.

Anyway even for EQ clones WoW talent system is second best.  The EQ2 AA's are more interesting , IMO.

I agree with some here that WoWs system is poor and boring.

The best character customization I have encountered in a class/level game, is DDO hands down. free skill point allocation,  free stat point allocation, almost unlimited freedom in choice of feats, multiclassing, 4 enchantment points per level, Some classes have to choose their spells per level... Its almost impossible to make two identical characters..

...naturally, in a game with so much freedom, the class balance goes haywire...but DDO dont need it

Originally posted by Nomatica

I played many mmorpgs and i think blizzard is the only company that really perfected the talent system. And still does, i have yet to play a mmorpg with a AA/Talent system like WoWs, because for one reason.

When we play WoW from 1-40 40 talent points in there really is a TRUE change to the class it makes it feel like playing a whole class all together kind of like a new class. Once at 40 you can tell a major difference between a Prot war/ fury war/ arms war , Holy priest/Shadow priest, etc. I think talents are a must have in any mmorpg because it really allows you to be more unique to your class WoWs system is ALMOST skill based mixed with a level based system.

I Tried EQ2 talent system and for some reason it just doesnt hit the spot like WoWs does.

But as far as class-games are concerned, I will agree that it's pretty good. The best? I dunno, I really don't think I can make that call. Mostly it will come down to opinion, I think.

It beats class-games without any specialization trees, for sure.

Originally posted by Nomatica

 

Originally posted by rmk70

 

Originally posted by Sunrider

you want true customization and character creation? go play city of heroes.

I really don't see how CoX has skill customization really. A tank is a tank, a DPS is a DPS, a support is a support. You can't stray far at all from what your class is created to do.

 

It sure does have a lot of customization for looks though, no doubt about that.

like you said a tank is a tank a dps is a dps, why WoWs talent system is good because take the paladin for example

 

A holy paladin talent spec cant take worth crap but if you take the talents and make a protection speced paladin it can become a true tank.

Now take a priest

A priest can be a main healer or if talent changes it can become a fierce dpser.

And there are far far far far more possible specs in Cox than there are in WoW.   Add in inventions and the possiblies go from an order of magnitude more specs to two orders of magnitude.

Have you ever even heard of an offender build?  I mean seriously this is just rank ignorance.  The variations in gameplay of  just the defender Archetype could probably encompass half the classes in WoW.  The defender Archetype in CoX utterly destroys the WoW priest class in different gameplay options offered.  I would go so far as to say the defnder archetype alone has more variations in gameply than WoW's entire class system including the talents.

This post is staggeringly wrong.  It actually hurts my brain.

Anyone saying a CoX Archetype has less variation than any class in WoW, whatever class it is, is so far wrong it boggles my mind.  I am tempted to say this is one of the most blatantly incorrect things I have seen on these forums.  And that says a lot.

Originally posted by gestalt11

 

Originally posted by Nomatica

 

Originally posted by rmk70

 

Originally posted by Sunrider

you want true customization and character creation? go play city of heroes.

I really don't see how CoX has skill customization really. A tank is a tank, a DPS is a DPS, a support is a support. You can't stray far at all from what your class is created to do.

 

It sure does have a lot of customization for looks though, no doubt about that.

like you said a tank is a tank a dps is a dps, why WoWs talent system is good because take the paladin for example

 

A holy paladin talent spec cant take worth crap but if you take the talents and make a protection speced paladin it can become a true tank.

Now take a priest

A priest can be a main healer or if talent changes it can become a fierce dpser.

Come on.  Do you people even play CoX?  There are all kinds of high DPS tank specs. 

 

And there are far far far far more possible specs in Cox than there are in WoW.   Add in inventions and the possiblies go from an order of magnitude more specs to two orders of magnitude.

Have you ever even heard of an offender build?  I mean seriously this is just rank ignorance.  The variations in gameplay of  just the defender Archetype could probably encompass half the classes in WoW.  The defender Archetype in CoX utterly destroys the WoW priest class in different gameplay options offered.  I would go so far as to say the defnder archetype alone has more variations in gameply than WoW's entire class system including the talents.

 

This post is staggeringly wrong.  It actually hurts my brain.

 

Anyone saying a CoX Archetype has less variation than any class in WoW, whatever class it is, is so far wrong it boggles my mind.  I am tempted to say this is one of the most blatantly incorrect things I have seen on these forums.  And that says a lot.

 

 

I think you nailed it on the head here. I have played both games, and the city of heroes series blows WoW away in this aspect. This really is a no brainer, and a debate is a waste of time.

Originally posted by rmk70

 

Originally posted by aionix

WoW's talent progression is good...however I've also played EQ2 and the AA system and advancement in skills is a little more in depth and grants further choices...however you'll still always have those cookie-cutter builds that seem to overpower TRUE character uniqueness

EQ2's talent system is actually inferior to WoW's in that EQ2's does not allow your class to alter it's general platform of use; WoW, on the other hand, does indeed do that.

 

As the OP said there's a fairly substantial difference between Prot warriors, Fury warriors, and Arms warriors.

In EQ2 all it does really is increase your overall productiveness and efficiency of what your class's basic premise is; which in reality is not customization at all, but rather upgrading.

The certainly change the purview of a mystic in a similar way shadow spec does for a WoW priest and in addition EQ2 had two separate kinds of AA's and lets you go down multiple trees.

Many other AA offer new special abilities as well. 

Finally your ciriticism of why EQ2's AA don't offer much difference is also true of a large portion of WoW talents.

Overall all they offer about they same amount of bonus efficacy and playstyle change ups.  But EQ2 offers two dimension to it and WoW only offers one.

Originally posted by gestalt11

 

Originally posted by Nomatica

 

Originally posted by rmk70

 

Originally posted by Sunrider

you want true customization and character creation? go play city of heroes.

I really don't see how CoX has skill customization really. A tank is a tank, a DPS is a DPS, a support is a support. You can't stray far at all from what your class is created to do.

 

It sure does have a lot of customization for looks though, no doubt about that.

like you said a tank is a tank a dps is a dps, why WoWs talent system is good because take the paladin for example

 

A holy paladin talent spec cant take worth crap but if you take the talents and make a protection speced paladin it can become a true tank.

Now take a priest

A priest can be a main healer or if talent changes it can become a fierce dpser.

Come on.  Do you people even play CoX?  There are all kinds of high DPS tank specs. 

 

And there are far far far far more possible specs in Cox than there are in WoW.   Add in inventions and the possiblies go from an order of magnitude more specs to two orders of magnitude.

Have you ever even heard of an offender build?  I mean seriously this is just rank ignorance.  The variations in gameplay of  just the defender Archetype could probably encompass half the classes in WoW.  The defender Archetype in CoX utterly destroys the WoW priest class in different gameplay options offered.  I would go so far as to say the defnder archetype alone has more variations in gameply than WoW's entire class system including the talents.

 

This post is staggeringly wrong.  It actually hurts my brain.

 

Anyone saying a CoX Archetype has less variation than any class in WoW, whatever class it is, is so far wrong it boggles my mind.  I am tempted to say this is one of the most blatantly incorrect things I have seen on these forums.  And that says a lot.

 

 

I was going to bring up CoX Archetypes, but aren't they a different animal? Not Skill Based, but are they really Class Based? I'd say "Ability Set" based.

But if you consider them class based, then yes, CoX trumps WoW.

Originally posted by vajuras

I thought WoW was pretty good for a level/class system til I played Guild Wars which trumped it for me.

 

It is its own animal.  Something entirely new.  I don't even know what to call.  But its pretty damn impressive.

I've never been so impressed by an RPG design, and I have the 1 edition Monster Manual 2 memorized.  Not that 1ed D&D was designed amazingly, but I have read alot of rpg stuff.

With WoW you could put your talent points wherever you like. if you just randomly distributed your points you'd be gimped, there are countless forums and posts about theorycrafting the talent trees. Some go so far as to have graphs and optimum dps with a system of attaching a value to a particular attribute or statistic.

In reality there looks like there are lots of choices to be made with regards to talent trees, but in truth there are 3 as others have said a PvE, PvP and raid. There are slight variations in what talents to pick, but the core skills are chosen, because the ones NOT chosen plain suck.

If players could pick talents without severely gimping their character then you could argue that WoW has true customisation. Who in their sane mind would deliberately gimp their character just to be different? Yes there are small tweaks, options, you could put a point here instead of there, but there are so many players out there that the bad options are debunked usually very quickly.

So to sum up, there aren't many options, because a lot of the talents suck the big one forcing the majority to pick a "build". Blizzard could remove the option of talents altogether and just give 3 subclasses per class raid, pve and pvp. Would it matter in raid or pve? No. In PvP? Well any serious PvPer would want to optimise their setup anyway so it would probably be fairly similar. In arenas provided the game doesn't drag on, most PvP builds would own a more PvE one although you'd be surprised what great players can do.

Originally posted by PrinnySquad

 

Originally posted by gestalt11

 

Originally posted by Nomatica

 

Originally posted by rmk70

 

Originally posted by Sunrider

you want true customization and character creation? go play city of heroes.

I really don't see how CoX has skill customization really. A tank is a tank, a DPS is a DPS, a support is a support. You can't stray far at all from what your class is created to do.

 

It sure does have a lot of customization for looks though, no doubt about that.

like you said a tank is a tank a dps is a dps, why WoWs talent system is good because take the paladin for example

 

A holy paladin talent spec cant take worth crap but if you take the talents and make a protection speced paladin it can become a true tank.

Now take a priest

A priest can be a main healer or if talent changes it can become a fierce dpser.

Come on.  Do you people even play CoX?  There are all kinds of high DPS tank specs. 

 

And there are far far far far more possible specs in Cox than there are in WoW.   Add in inventions and the possiblies go from an order of magnitude more specs to two orders of magnitude.

Have you ever even heard of an offender build?  I mean seriously this is just rank ignorance.  The variations in gameplay of  just the defender Archetype could probably encompass half the classes in WoW.  The defender Archetype in CoX utterly destroys the WoW priest class in different gameplay options offered.  I would go so far as to say the defnder archetype alone has more variations in gameply than WoW's entire class system including the talents.

 

This post is staggeringly wrong.  It actually hurts my brain.

 

Anyone saying a CoX Archetype has less variation than any class in WoW, whatever class it is, is so far wrong it boggles my mind.  I am tempted to say this is one of the most blatantly incorrect things I have seen on these forums.  And that says a lot.

 

 

 

I was going to bring up CoX Archetypes, but aren't they a different animal? Not Skill Based, but are they really Class Based? I'd say "Ability Set" based.

But if you consider them class based, then yes, CoX trumps WoW.

The problem is they are comparing a WoW tank to CoX tanks and they simply have no clue.  I had to compare classes to archetypes.  Explaining the archetype concept would take too long. 

It is enough to show that there statement is completely wrong though.  Tanks can tank and tanks can do very good damage, they have far more different ways to protect themselves and far more different ways to do damage.  Trying to say the warrior class and its talent spec trumps the tank archetype is simply preposterous given, that the WoW warrior has three ways to go and the Tanks AT has more than 20 and both the CoX and WoW versions can DPS or Tank or Both.

Then add in inventions with all the other customization and special procs and we are talking about prot /fury/arms versus 20 different power set combination expanding into 100 different builds. 

Is the comparison fair?  No an AT is far more flexible than a class.  That is why this post is so staggeringly wrong it hurts my brain.  If they even had an inkling of what they were talking about they would never have tried to make this comparison.  Its flabbergasting.