WAR (Warhammer Online)

Originally posted by Pheace

 

Originally posted by Kremlik

As already meantioned tons of times 'stealth' shouldn't be an option in any mmo UNLESS it has heavy drawbacks and actally requires cover to hide..

WoW's rogues made this doubly troublesome by granting rogues with fairly easy chains of stunlocks and very good escape means.. meaning rogues were not only good at 1v1 combat but it was commonly used with GROUPS of rogues meaning it was pointless to attack back thats if you could actally do anything due to the locks, and IF you did manage to attack back they could easily disappear and run away, they are VERY much 'I win' classes, hence why a lot of players hate stealth..

i'd quite happy allow for rogue types with 'stealth' IF stealth required cover to make you 'invisable', any stun give a anti-stun buff to prevent chaining stuns and escape skills required a heavy cost to use.. then many players would be happy to have a 'stealth' class ingame if that class 'requires' the use of the above three skilltypes

 

 

Are we still talking PvE here or PvP? At top level PvP most classes have easy means of breaking out of the stunlock (trinket,bubble,bestial wrath) If not to win a match at that point at least to get away (throw a fear or whatever to get that headstart). The class that has the most problems with a rogue is probably a warlock.

I myself have little to no problems with rogues when they jump me but then a hunter has some good skills to get away.

 

And escape abilities don't make "I Win" classes, they make "I Don't Lose" classes and *that* is something I agree on a lot of players hate but that does not make them overpowered in my opinion.

That said, I wouldn't be adverse to the extra things needed to be able to stealth like you mention. For me, I don't care whether stealth is in or not but the reasons I see for it not being in so far are silly at best imo. (Mechanics reasons anyway, Lore ofcourse is justified, although they're not exactly sticking to the lore throughout the game)

 

 

Edit: Also, people keep bringing up rogues, since obviously they are based on stealth fighting but I don't hear anyone talk about the druid who can also stealth just as well as a rogue yet I hear noone speak about that being overpowered. What would be wrong with that kind of stealth?

Ahh with druid's version although it still has the 'invisable' aspect this is still tbh a 'no no', it's that combination of 'stunlock/stealth/escape' that makes rogues THAT disliked, I do agree that Warlocks are just as bad but thats due  to the fact that like stunlocking the player in pvp loses complete control of the character and that further disliked by the fact unless your a certian class it's hard to 'break' fear..

Saying that you said stunlocking can be broken via trinkets, but thats basically WoW is 'requires' XYZ gear wise in every aspect of the game but if a MMO wont be that gear dependent and just going from a skill base, plus that 'escape' skill out of stun/fear lock only has time to work that once were all a player really has to do is wait a bit then coniue the locking..

The problem is that in a PVE situation yes crowd control like stuns and fears should be used to keep a mob out of combat, but in a PVP situation yes it should do the same HOWEVER it shouldn't allow for combat damge to continue on that CC'ed player without bringing them back into the fight, thats the issue, anything 'out of combat' should be classed as such, it's very irronic as skills from a mage in WoW that take either the player casting or CC'ed mob/player out of combat remain so until broken/expires which imo is correct, so why isn't that true for warlock and rogues skills?

Originally posted by Trollstar

 

Originally posted by Pheace

 

Originally posted by Trollstar

 

Originally posted by Pheace

Personally I think the Dark Age of Camelot aspect is weighing in very hard in people's judgements here. I have little problems with the rogue's in World of Warcraft, I'd *definately* not call them anywhere near to overpowered. (I'm a Hunter myself)

 

Playing catch with a rogue, seeing one person at a control point but never being sure if there aren't druids/rogues stealthed keeps things interesting imo. Stealthers are also excellent on information on area's you'd otherwise not get close to.

 

I personally think there are plenty of things stealth classes can bring to a game, just don't make them ridiculously overpowered like in Daoc.

 

Naw, while its true, stealthers in DAOC were a major pain, even in WOW they were irritating, especially as you were trying to level up on a PVP server.  You'd be there, minding your own business, pulling 2 or 3 mobs that were well witihin your range and then out of no where a Rogue would uncloak and nail you while you were at 50% health and had 3 mobs on you.

Now, I'd be all for them if in the previously described scenario the moment they attacked me I was insta-healed to 100% and the mobs immediately aggo'd the stealther.

 

 

 

So your anti argument is based on the fact that a stealther "may" gank you unaware in PvE?

I mean, disregarding the fact that Warhammer is almost holding your hand through that already with their core ruleset and next to that the chicken, getting ganked is gonna happen if it's a level difference and you're fighting a mob anyway whether you saw him or not, not to mention at least for me as a hunter a similar level rogue jumping me certainly wasn't the end of the world.

 

It seems like a silly argument at best to base not having the mechanics it brings to PvP to be lost because it could be used for griefing in PvE(especially in a game based on PvP) and even then it only gives a small edge unless the class is either higher level or overpowered to begin with.

 

Good point, WAR is a PVP centric game and as you pointed out, the issue isn't that big of a deal in that case.

But I still prefer the combat to have everyone on the field where I can see them, and not have people magically popping out of thin air to attack.

 

Fair enough, I personally prefer the uncertainty of not knowing what I'm facing ^^

Originally posted by Kremlik

Saying that you said stunlocking can be broken via trinkets, but thats basically WoW is 'requires' XYZ gear wise in every aspect of the game but if a MMO wont be that gear dependent and just going from a skill base, plus that 'escape' skill out of stun/fear lock only has time to work that once were all a player really has to do is wait a bit then coniue the locking..

 

The only reason that is is because it's gear in that game, there's nothing stopping developers from making it an innate ability. It's just an example of something that can make it so an ability can be countered. it just happens to be a trinket in WoW.

To me stealth is just a "safe zone", not as perfect as say a WoW Paladins bubble but to the same effect. At any time stealthers can say "okay I'm outta here" and pop into their own little world where they are relatively "safe" from external sources.

While stealth is nice for giving that player a feeling of being an "assassin". Gameplay wise I see it as nothing more than a crutch for people who can't play on the field like others. Don't get me wrong I had a 60 rogue when I played WoW and he was fun, (I'm not going to deny stealthing is fun) but he was my least played 60.

Stealth is just not as prominent to my gaming experience as some I suppose.

I am pleased that WAR has no stealthing classes.

EDIT: (HYPOTHETICAL) Just to add I had a 50 Infiltrator in DAOC too, and if they ever decided to toss in stealthing classes it better not be like DAOCs. I loved 1 shotting people with PA but I hope it wouldn't be that simple anymore.

Originally posted by Consensus

The dark elf assasin. And with it stealth.

If you know something about warhammer then you know how awesome these guys are. heres a concept art for one by me.

an mmorpg w/o stealth means no proper rogue class. which means a crippled mmo. warhammer has a great stealth class in the lore already. why leave it out? to keep the game simple it seems.

If you actually played Warhammer "TT" you would know why there are no stealth classes in the game in a WOW,EQ2 and DAoC sense.

Go buy the rule book, the Dark Elf book and you will find out there is a difference between hidden (applies to assasins,they are not moving around "hence hidden") and stealth (moving through undetected "difference than sneaking within 3 inches of your foe invisible like EQ2").

If you want Stealth in the aspect of being within 5 inches of your enemy and not being seen (invisible), I think you are looking at the wrong game, EQ2 and WOW has that. 

On a note, I think they did good by not putting a cheap skill in the game and who knows, they haven't really went into description about the Shadow Warrior and we all know they fall in the category of the scout class.

Originally posted by Impyriel

To me stealth is just a "safe zone", not as perfect as say a WoW Paladins bubble but to the same effect. At any time stealthers can say "okay I'm outta here" and pop into their own little world where they are relatively "safe" from external sources.

While stealth is nice for giving that player a feeling of being an "assassin". Gameplay wise I see it as nothing more than a crutch for people who can't play on the field like others. Don't get me wrong I had a 60 rogue when I played WoW and he was fun, (I'm not going to deny stealthing is fun) but he was my least played 60.

Stealth is just not as prominent to my gaming experience as some I suppose.

I am pleased that WAR has no stealthing classes.

EDIT: (HYPOTHETICAL) Just to add I had a 50 Infiltrator in DAOC too, and if they ever decided to toss in stealthing classes it better not be like DAOCs. I loved 1 shotting people with PA but I hope it wouldn't be that simple anymore.

I did my fair share of ganking people out in the open world.  NEWS FLASH.  Rogues are underhanded, cheap, mean, and any other bad thing you can think of.  They are supposed to kill for profit, steal for profit... in general, be a nuisance.  If you don't see their place in an MMO, then you are just another carebear.  Sure, they can go AFK rather safely, they can pick and choose their fights, gank, scout without much danger.. but they had to have stealth and stunlocks to be effective.

Someone said Warlocks had the toughest time against rogues.. well, how about you be a rogue in WoW and attack a warrior with a powerful 2 hander.  It was suicide.  There is a weakness to every class.  Mages and Warriors were tough.  It was like that for every different class.  Stealth is fine.  Diminishing returns on stuns would be fine.  Have to be near underbrush or trees.. or structures would be a good addition.  I still think the vanish ability should be there.. but only if rooted where you have control of your character.  But it shouldn't break abilities that would allow you to see stealth and it shouldn't break dots or an ability that would slow you.  That way, you may not be able to get back to safety before the 10 seconds wears off.

In a game where WAR is everwhere.. and RvR has a lot of siege in it.  Where large armies are... scouts should have an opportunity to not be seen.  You would be extremely ineffective against a group of players on your own even if you are stealthed.  Plus, you can always go to PvE only zones to level up.  They are in every tier of the game.  Ganking lower levels isn't even an option.  And it is DAoC''s fault to give sleathed archers the ability to one-shot players.  The chicken should change a lot of it.  I understand the table-top game doesn't support stealth.. but this is a video game.. there are plenty of things in the MMO that won't be in the old game.

Whether there is stealth or not.. that's fine.  But, I believe it is a viable option and could certainly be balanced.

Originally posted by DAS1337

 

Originally posted by Impyriel

To me stealth is just a "safe zone", not as perfect as say a WoW Paladins bubble but to the same effect. At any time stealthers can say "okay I'm outta here" and pop into their own little world where they are relatively "safe" from external sources.

While stealth is nice for giving that player a feeling of being an "assassin". Gameplay wise I see it as nothing more than a crutch for people who can't play on the field like others. Don't get me wrong I had a 60 rogue when I played WoW and he was fun, (I'm not going to deny stealthing is fun) but he was my least played 60.

Stealth is just not as prominent to my gaming experience as some I suppose.

I am pleased that WAR has no stealthing classes.

EDIT: (HYPOTHETICAL) Just to add I had a 50 Infiltrator in DAOC too, and if they ever decided to toss in stealthing classes it better not be like DAOCs. I loved 1 shotting people with PA but I hope it wouldn't be that simple anymore.

I think that your assumption that people who play rogues can't hang with the non-stealthers in battle is dead wrong.  I had a 70 rogue before I quit.  Every type of BG.. I would be the top killer, defender, attacker.. one of them, if not all, at least.. most of the time.  I played a rogue exclusively.  So much that I didn't even have another 60.  The closest was a 56 holy priest.  I think you are assuming I assume that, which is wrong. It's not about your "wow rogue" it's about "stealth". I think stealth is a whole dimension of gaming, and yes I think it is a crutch style of gaming. I think stealthers can hang, but like I said it's a safe zone. I will also say though that it is incredibly fun to play stealthers as well. When I played them though, I felt like I was playing a game on easy difficulty.

 

 

I did my fair share of ganking people out in the open world.  NEWS FLASH.  Rogues are underhanded, cheap, mean, and any other bad thing you can think of.  They are supposed to kill for profit, steal for profit... in general, be a nuisance.  If you don't see their place in an MMO, then you are just another carebear.  Sure, they can go AFK rather safely, they can pick and choose their fights, gank, scout without much danger.. but they had to have stealth and stunlocks to be effective. See other thread about stealth and my "immersion factor" response.

 

Originally posted by DAS1337

 

Originally posted by Impyriel

 

In a game where WAR is everwhere.. and RvR has a lot of siege in it.  Where large armies are... scouts should have an opportunity to not be seen.  You would be extremely ineffective against a group of players on your own even if you are stealthed.  Plus, you can always go to PvE only zones to level up.  They are in every tier of the game.  Ganking lower levels isn't even an option.  And it is DAoC''s fault to give sleathed archers the ability to one-shot players.  The chicken should change a lot of it.  I understand the table-top game doesn't support stealth.. but this is a video game.. there are plenty of things in the MMO that won't be in the old game.

 

Whether there is stealth or not.. that's fine.  But, I believe it is a viable option and could certainly be balanced.

The best example I can give for how stealth works in Warhammer is with that of the Tabula Rasa game and the Ranger class. Your pretty much off the radar while moving around but you are not invisible "can be seen all the time".

Hidden works differently also, it works in where you can pretty much blend in a s