Real PvP was in Neocron till they ruined it :(

What we need is less fantasy mmos getting tired of sword swinging and elf RPer pervs.

 

For real PvP we need to have Rockstar make a Grand Theft Auto MMO with Gangs, Thugs, Cops, Swat and military all playable with player owned safe houses.

 

Now thats a game ill play for a long time!

 

So come on Rockstar make GTA Online!

I think this blog would have been more accurately titled "What SOME Gamers Want".  THIS gamer certainly does NOT want PvP in her MMOs.  There are all kinds of players out there with all kinds of likes and dislikes; thankfully, there are games to fit most tastes. 

That is why I like Guild Wars--it keeps the PvP separate from the PvE.  Players can kill each other to their hearts' content, but they don't bother those of us who do not relish getting ganked and griefed. 

I couldn't quite understand the assertion that high end content is restricted to raids and PvP--Guild Wars Eye of the North fairly reeks of high end content that majors on PvE.  I am sure other games can be cited that exercise similar creativity, although Guild Wars is a real gem.

I realize that I am doing exactly what I tweaked the blogger for doing--touting his own likes.  But I am not claiming that all gamers want the same thing I do--it is just my gaming preference.

I prefer PvE.  PvP is purely a fantasy, a 'wouldn't it be nice' sort of thing where the 'bad guys' would play to lose or to defend their own turf rather htan gank people.

I am not a competitive gamer - what i want is to go in and fight with, not against, other players to take down opponents.  I actually don't *care* if its pvp or pve as long as i am having fun with a group of friends.  Until roleplaying games came along, i did not play games.  like... at all.  having to compete with any friend - poker, chess, atari shoot em ups - whatever - they really lacked appeal.

 

WITH.  not AGAINST!

 

Always.

I agree with the some of the previous posters about DAoC.  The pvp (RvR as they called it) felt more meaningful than other game's attempts.  Instanced pvp is fun but has no impact on the game as a whole.  Why, steal an enemy realm's relic and you just gave everyone in your realm a buff where ever they are.  Their battlegrounds were non-instanced, only 5 levels (1-4, 5-9, etc) and had a keep that could be seiged and seized.

The problem with pvp is that it takes only 1 person to ruin things for a lot of people.  Think about real life cops.  If just ONE cop is found to be corrupt, it will jade the public into thinking most of the cops are corrupt.. even if they aren't.  Same thing in pvp, if one player goes around ganking people.. those people will think that everyone who pvp's ganks.

Unfortunately there are cruel, petty and immature people in the world and many of them play MMO's.  The anonymity of the internet only encourages these types of people to ruin people's gameplay.  Heck I even knew a guy who said that his main reason of playing WAS to ruin other people's gameplay.  My enjoyment from pvp comes from defeating an opponent that was challenging and had a realistic chance of defeating me.  One shotting a player 60 levels below me, who I could of went afk and had lunch and still be alive, is not my idea of fun or "1337 gaming skilz".

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Originally posted by Ithi
...That is why I like Guild Wars--it keeps the PvP separate from the PvE.  Players can kill each other to their hearts' content, but they don't bother those of us who do not relish getting ganked and griefed. 
...

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IMHO Alianse Battles in GW:Factions is way to go. Your opposite is same level as you and battle result depends of fight skills and tactic (except if there is afkers or leavers). Also this is fight for territory and towns. But this is only basic for good pvp and need to be improved.

I like the Lineage 2 PvP system, i will point out the things i like in PvP.
The PvP system should have features like:

1. Why should you want to kill a player ?:
   - take his (or his guild's) castle or zone control, wars between guilds,
   - kill him for PvP Rank (will increase damage with any weapon, become more strong),
   - take his items (if or when he drops them),
   - penalty system (become hated and hunted).

2. When you get killed:
   - decrease your experience (delevel),
   - if you are hunted, drop items off your char or from your inventory.

 

I've never seen an online game deal with ganking in a realistic way.     Think about it in RL.   If I were to mug and stab someone coming out a vendor,  I'd immediately be wanted by the law.   This means that everywhere I went, I'd have to be very careful not to get recognized.    If I did this serially, ganking several people over time, I'd become more and more wanted by the law.   Furthermore, due to the violence of my "muggings", the law would probably be just as likely to kill me as arrest me.  

This is the kind of realism I'd like to see added to PvP in games.    You want to be a robber and mugger?   Go ahead, but expect realistic consequences.

 

 

ever consider some people just dont like PVP for one reason or another?

some for moral reasons disslike killing/slaughtering  and killing a charactor run by another player is beyond what they are willing to do,,

others comes down to  effectivly unfair fights   pure PVPers  vs  casual/part time PVPers sort of like a navy seal vs bill the construction worker  its usually worse because games dont allow for  gurilla tactics or effective ambushes .

I generally dont like dieing in a game and especially dont like dieing when Im so outclassed out matched  im not having any fun.

 

Im playing EVE right now and it has free for all PVP  and its crippling EVE  only 200k accounts

and people are so crouded into the "noob" areas  its overloading the server  as of last report 78% of the players were in  high security space and only 22% were out in low security.

 

for ma as a casual player "carebear" to  want to get involved in PVP  several things are required

1. there must be some relativly safe areas where i can play unharassed

2.  there must be half way areas where you can fight but not get killed, so that casual players can practice without the unacceptably high risk of getting killed,,  bloody and wounded yes.. this would allow players to test themselves and to practice tor more hostile locations.

3. there must be some way that as a casual player that I can last long enough in a fight to feel that i wasnt just meat for someone elses grinder  and that I feel that my fighting/death was valuable to my side in short  if im gonna risk getting killed  I want a very good reason  just because its PVP is NOT a good enough reason for me,, just because there is a fort to fight over is pointless to me,, what does the fort posession offer?   there is no starvation in games so its not about   capturing more farmland or supplies  politicol might be another reason  if players gave a crap about who is their king.

Originally posted by brindy666

he was spot on about south shore in wow - i loved the pvp there before pvp even gave you any recognition or reward.  i thought it was a great bit of the game that overlapped pvp with pve and there really should have been some pvp objectives there to complete (if you wanted).  sadly, the implementation of pvp in wow killed the game for me.

as for daoc, when i used to play it you couldn't really do pvp until about level 20 or so, but had a lot of fun when i did get to do pvp.  tthey did introduce pure pvp servers at one point, but i don't remember being able to level by doing pvp - it was a matter of doing pve and hoping you didn't get pasted and hope you got invited to one of the larger guilds for protection.  eventually thugh i got bored before i managed to max out my character, mainly because i was playing on american servers from the uk. 

so thanks to mythic, i am very much looking forward to warhammer online! 

i never really understood why pvp wasn't a bigger part of all mmorpgs really - i mean fps games have always been pvp - so why not rpgs? 

 

You don't remember being able to PvP in the 15-19 BG's? Well, no matter, because about 2 years ago they introduced BG's for 1-5, 6-10, and 11-14 in addition to the other ones. Plus, they created a 1-5 & 6-10 mini DF type dungeons in additions to the new BG's. Plus, every level can enter New Frontiers and PvP. I remember going to New Frontiers with my guild in my teens and gaining all kinds of levels. The enemy doesn't know what level you are, so you are helping by making your realm seem like it has more power than it really does. So you've always been able to PvP from lvl 1-50, you just chose not to for one reason or another.

PLANETSIDE   got all weard and dimentional    whic makes it TOTALLY suck

they should have went the way of starship troopers  with dropships    and zero g space stations 

it would have attracted alot more people.

I played PS for a while but the endless back and forth battles became prety pointless without other content

it was better once they made bases more secure by putng doors in.

 

to me a good game would also include functioning fortifications and defences  balisti  cantipults  oil cauldrons   gates and drawbridges   and differing races would have different equipment and tactics  like  battle elephants  or attack wolves

 

I think the key to success with PVP MMO's is for devs to realise instanced play whilst popular when we all sit round talking about it - isn't people's favoured route in practise.

Look at Blizzard and what they did... brought out the battleground instances to kill open world PvP. The BG's were really enjoyable but the absence of world pvp focus alienated people and left them with only a soft PvE focus. So prior to and after the Burning Crusade expansion they shifted their focus back. (a little too late for some).

Look at Lord of the Rings Online. The monster play whilst separate from the PVE game isn't number balanced. At any time you can enter and the odds can be for you or against you. But search the forums - you will not find a single post by any player asking for numbers to be balanced like the WoW BG's were.

DAoC is probably the best and most successful RvR game currently at retail. Are the numbers balanced?

People like freedom to be able to come and go as they please. People like risk and adversity. People like open world PvP.

And I agree with the OP that the first MMO to come along and offer a route to the level cap entirely through PvP will gain a lot of support. Warhammer Online is shaping up nicely for that so keep an eye on it.

Originally posted by eric_w66

I believe all MMORPG's fail at pvp combat.

They succeed in griefing and ganking.

PvP means to me a fight between players where the skill of the player (not the arbitrary power of a toon leveled to 50 or whatever) decides the outcome. WW2 Online, Planetside, etc, are examples of this kind of PvP. Everyone has a chance to win for the most part (rifleman vs tiger, not so much, but Tigers are super rare, and rifleman are not). Besting an opponent in this style of combat is a rewarding experience for me.

In MMORPG's however, aside from the somehat balanced small instances in some of them (BG's in WoW etc) typically devolve into one sided gank fests (DAOC, L2, Shadowbane, AO, etc). Without balance, you have grief. Superior numbers and levels wins the day. Every... single.... time........ That would bore the hell out of me, but apparently there are sufficient numbers of sociopaths in the world that it makes game developers think of them first (PotBS, Warhammer, AoC) when designing new games. I find no joy in ganking someone 5 or 6 on 1. That's not fun for me, and I shudder to think of what kind of person it is who does find it enjoyable (Did they boil puppies alive when they were younger? Put firecrackers into frogs?)

And on the opposite side, the person who gets ganked 5-6 on 1 will find it unenjoyable as well. They'll probably cancel the account if it gets bad enough (Shadowbane anyone?) This kind of PvP where levels and items and time played (and numbers) matter far more than skill is self defeating for the developer. Sure, you don't have to provide end game content as these people are more than willing to sit at a spawn point for hours on end waiting for a helpless victim to come along.... but sooner or later, the game runs out of helpless victims and it goes under.

As for why most games aren't Open PvP, I wonder why... its these same sociopaths who'd ruin it for everyone but themselves. Its why we have laws in our societies. We shouldn't NEED them, but there are people, just as in these games, who'd go out of their way to mess with everyone (or worse) if they weren't in place. And sometimes even the laws don't stop them and they have to be jailed or put down (see the colorado religious school shootings just yesterday). Wouldn't suprise me if the idiot who went on the shooting spree was a griefer in some MMORPG.

I totally agree its these low life jerks that cause many to quit or leave  in SWG  people would camp the hospital  and if someone did actually kill the guy,, he would respawn at the clone center 100 ft away

another time these guys droped an enemy base  at minimum range outside the major rebel town  and bases were basicly invulnerable and had a bug so you could shoot from inside, and they had poison makers that were effectivly  weapons of mass destruction.  when it came down to it  the rebels actually had to stop assaulting the base and  attack the developers  with mass petitions and  mass forum spams  for them to get off their ass and do something.  i wonder what it was like for them to get several hundred petitions  all on the same thing or to have every forum held hostage.

in eve  ive had so many unarmed haulers and miners  destroyed by gankers  that I left eve

PVPers are basicly cowards and want easy cheap kills i call em puppy killers  because their idea of enjoyment is by harassint the weak and defenceless  and game mechanics  promote this type of harassment,  because developers dont play their own games    makes you want to find a dev and  ambush him with a 2x4 in the face.

Actually SWG had an ability that allowed the town militia to make people in their town attackable if they didn't leave within a certain period of time.  Unfortunately do to an unfortunate incident involving kicking out a csr from a town and then ganking him, the ability was revoked.  Not sure if that was the sole reason the ability was removed, but I remember it made quite a stink at the time.  Made for a good screenshot too

heres a hint, make your CSR/DEV avatars   either invulnerable  or  badasses.  theres allways gonns be someone that wants to take on a dev/god.

I love RVR. It gives real purpose and meaning to pvp.I look forward to Guild Wars 2 and the promise of some intelligence and understanding of how to construct and managie an rvr oriented game.

Originally posted by SwampRob

 

I've never seen an online game deal with ganking in a realistic way.     Think about it in RL.   If I were to mug and stab someone coming out a vendor,  I'd immediately be wanted by the law.   This means that everywhere I went, I'd have to be very careful not to get recognized.    If I did this serially, ganking several people over time, I'd become more and more wanted by the law.   Furthermore, due to the violence of my "muggings", the law would probably be just as likely to kill me as arrest me.  

This is the kind of realism I'd like to see added to PvP in games.    You want to be a robber and mugger?   Go ahead, but expect realistic consequences.

 

 

Sorry about the format , it doesen`t want to space for some reason. There are a few out there that have a good system in place for this and many that were not well thought out at all. I would give EQ 2 the prize for the worst ganking, backstabbing , unsupervised so called pvp that rewards players for murderering others and has no mechanics in place to allow survival for solo players and 0 consequence for griefing. 2 Moons has one of the best systems with an actual dungeon for those who murder players in excess. IF you atk a player and they choose to fight back , then it`s considered pvp without consequence. If they don`t fight you and you go ahead and kill them , then you accumulate negative points for PK. If you have over 500 negative points from going around killing pople who are doing pve or whatever , you can be sent to the castle dungeon along with others who have gone on killing sprees. There are guards that will spawn also and arrest you and the castle gaurds will atk you on sight. If you end up in the dungeon , you have to stay in there and can`t do pve or level up until your time is up , which could be more than 12 hours in some cases.The time will only pass if your logged in also. Anyone can visit the dungeon and observe the player killers standing there behind bars , I use to go there and tease them for fun and they would get so pissed off they would try and atk me through the bars lol. These are usually the same griefer types that are in every game that offers pvp that think they can pk people for no reason. You can pvp as much you like as long as the person your attacking fights back but if you just go around murdering anyone you will end up with consequences. Self defense and murder = 2 different types of killing. To bad 2 Moons is a grinder , if someone would make a game with Korean style graphics and pvp combined with American style pve and gameplay it would be nice. Seems like all the good pvp games are grinders and all the good pve games have lame pvp systems. EQ 2 is a great game and it has a very nice skill system etc. but the pvp on the open pvp servers has 0 consequence in place and it encourages ganking , kind of like the old saying " if you give someone an inch they will take a mile " and in that game they do. Even guys that have played mmorpg`s for over 15 years have quit that game in disgust because SOE has no clue when it comes to pvp mechanics.

Isnt there enough fantasy style MMOs? come on the developers for MMOs need to look into something new!

click on game list and sort by genre.

NEED NEW IDEAS! not same old games with minor differences

cant wait for Huxley omg something different oO

If its sword swinging arrow shooting you want go for it but my god, we need a change of pace!

Need more PvP based games with balance get tired of the games that you need to quest by collecting (insert body part) and turning it into (random name thats barely pronounceable) or "grinding" a bajillion mobs. i see these types of games and keep moving.

I kinda feel PvP is an essential part of MMOs, because at least for me I enjoy that element of uncertainty. Also I like PvE as much as the next guy, but when you or your leaders can go online and get the easiest way to kill some raid boss it seems to lack some fun.

What I look for in an MMO besides fun is can I PvP when I feel like it and can I PvE without having to worry about that one guy who like to kill people when they are PvEing. Personally I'm not a huge fan of a
a set number vs. a set number I like my PvP with a little unevenness sometimes. I think the unevenness helps to control people who feel the need to "twink" characters. That and the set numbers are usually fairly low like a max of 15 or so, not saying all are, but most. And who doesn't love huge armies clashing with at least 50 people in each all trying to take/defend some base. DAOC's RvR is most likely gonna be the end all be all of my favorite "PvP".

DAOC (best PvP I've ever seen), if they do Warhammer in the same style I just might have to pick it up.

 

Full Control of you char and the fight.. which means NO Click to walk with the mouse.

What about Lineage II? This game is almost exlusively PvP with PvE serving only as a training & loot gathering device before engaging in major PvP battles. I mean i hate the grind of PvE but PvP in this game is totally worth it. The same with EVE online with the most hardcore PvP in the world where making a wrong step can set you back couple of hundred millions ISK and months of hard work... That's the point of PvP, the fun, the excitement.. Why do EVE has one of the most closely knit guilds (corporations)? Beacuse their relationships are forged in battles where they can loose everything they worked for ages in a blink of an eye. And who plays EVE? MATURE people. People with jobs and families not spotty teenagers who are hoarding stupid amounts of useless loot... And that leads to the point of the whole rant: PvP is mostly for MATURE people who want to play with the risk of loosing loot, experience but that what makes the whole thing exciting. Besides just how much PvP expands the whole MMO concept is unbelieveable. I mean stupid ore convoy in EVE is major mission where coordination of defense against other players takes hours and the only thing the devs contributed to this adventure is the game engine and mechanics everything else is player created without stupid instances or big bosses at the end, just a struggle of guiding an ore convoy through 12 0.0 systems with 3 months worth of mining the ore, now THAT's the game i want to play where players create scenarios and events not the script. Hopefully WAR will kick ass in the PvP department because it's what a lot of people want to have the game WORTH playing. After playing LOTRO for as month i turned around and asked myself what do f**k am i playing this for? The missions i'm performing don't matter because they'll be repeated thousand times over, the loot is the same as all the other players', killing mobs is clicking on them and doing the maths between my dps and their hp... And teaming only when a mob is too tough for us to slay i mean that's pointless and no fun. Hopefully WAR and AoC will live up to the PvP hype. Hopefully Tabula Rasa will introduce REAL PvP content with missions against player controlled Bane (this games SCREAMS for real PvP).

Eve Online has the best PvP system I have ever seen.  For PvP to be good there has to be sever consequences for loosing and rewards for winning.  I will never enjoy a faction-based PvP system again after playing Eve.  Free-for-all is where it is at!  Yes it is a pain for the developers to balance and get right but if they do they will pull every PvP fan to their game. 

If you haven't PvP'd in Eve Online I suggest you do.  There is a very steep learning curve but you can PvP effectively in just a few days.  For fun I rolled a pirate alt and after 3 days of training I was able to school a 23-day old character.  I have never had a such a rush from a game before.  Come on...  did your heart rate ever double while grinding in WSG? 

Eve Online gives you this adrenaline rush because one false move can set you back weeks of ISK (game money).  In Eve, death hurts, and that is why it is so much fun.  To put it in WoW terms it would be like loosing your Tier 3 armor set when you die.  Some of it would be damaged beyond repair but some of it would lie there on the ground for anyone to pick up.  Sounds harsh but space is a harsh place...

If you do try it out, read a lot and join a training corporation like Eve University on day one.