|76 posts found|
10/09/07 4:14:00 PM#61
Originally posted by Serling
Renting a car =/ (does not equal) paying a subscription fee to play a game.
If I rented a Viper from a company and, in the wording of the contract, the rental company stated "The rental company retains the right to exchange your Viper for a yugo at its discretion", then I would be foolish to expect that this would never happen.
Moreover, if it did happen, I would (of course) retain the right to be mad, but would be defenseless against people who told me " Duh, your expectations are irrational".
In every contract, EULA, License Agreement, ect of every MMO I have every played in, there are provisions for changing the game, nerfing, even provisions for serious amounts of "downtime".
Fallacies that exist in your post include :
A- Non Sequiter
B- False dilemma
C-Fallacy of the Consequent
D- Ad hominem
E- Perfect solution fallacy
F- Accident fallacy
G- Argumentum ad populum, Appeal to ignorance, Appeal to emotion
This isnt just a random list. They're all there imho.
An example of how this links to your post. This is non sequiter. (Since you wont go to the link):
Non sequitur is Latin for "it does not follow." In formal logic, an argument is a non sequitur if its conclusion does not follow from its premises. In a non sequitur, the conclusion can be either true or false, but the argument is a fallacy because the conclusion does not follow from the premise. All formal fallacies are specific types of non sequitur. The term has special applicability in law, having a formal legal definition.
Here are two types of non sequitur of traditional noteworthiness:
1) Any argument that takes the following form is a non sequitur:
Even if the premises and conclusion are all true, the conclusion is not a necessary consequence of the premises. This sort of non sequitur is also called affirming the consequent.
An example of affirming the consequent would be:
"I" could be another type of mammal without being a human. While the conclusion may be true, it does not follow from the premises. This argument is still a fallacy even if the conclusion is true. It is a non sequitur (note that it is the exact same argument form as in example 1 - the form is always a non sequitur).
Viper Vs. CoH.
Viper: Probably have the right to be mad.. Typically is not stated in rental contracts that can be replaced with a yugo. Ergo, justified.
CoH: Right to be mad. However, warned innumerable times in ToS, License, historical expectations, ect ect.
Affirming the consequent/ Non sequiter argumentative fallacy.
2ndary: appeal to emotion and ignorance.
Dont get me wrong. I wish MMO's could be as perfect as you obviously *expect*.
I dont think CoH is a perfect MMO.
I, too, get angry when a char i have put time, effort, and money into gets 'nerfed' 'borked' or 'destroyed'.
However, again, irrational expectations.
10/09/07 11:51:43 PM#62
Originally posted by DrowNoble
Honestly when I read Serling's posts I couldn't believe it was about the same game I've been playing for the past year and a half. I've really enjoyed myself, and have had good customer service as well. Well, I guess we all see through different lenses. I respect others' views, but I've had a very positive experience, and appreciate it after the stuff I went through with the Star Wars NGE. The communication and customer service in CoH has been consistently far better than what I was used to in SWG. It's been very refreshing.
10/10/07 5:20:46 AM#63
They are both payment for services contracts. The product or service doesn't matter. The payment for services is what defines the contractual relationship, ergo it is analogous!
The actual wording of the EULA says "game experience MAY change". It doesn't indicate anywhere in the EULA that it WILL change. If you're going to parse the language, look up the difference between "may" and "will."
The rest of your post looks like nothing more than a cut and paste job, so I'm not even going to bother addressing it.
10/10/07 5:31:39 AM#64
Last post to you as well:
The point about the stealth nerf was in reference to Emmert's oft stated disdain for no reward without risk. In his world, free xp is apparently tantamount to kidnapping. Fine. But then don't turn around and in an act of sheer and utter hypocrisy create a reward for doing nothing at all!
Get it now???
Apparently free XP is OK now under certain circumstances. Fine. Now that we've established that we can get free xp, let's negotiate. We've established what the Cryptic devs are. Now we're just haggling over "price."
These devs have always said one thing and done exactly the opposite, even when it came to telling us to six-slot powers they KNEW in a matter of weeks would not be worth a damn six-slotted!
You love the game. Great! I get that. Feel the way you do about it, and I'll feel as I do. I'm not asking you to change your views, only warning those who might wish to try it what a god-awful grind it is, and how - like me - you can spend hundreds of dollars and hundreds of hours building a toon only to see all your time and money wasted! That's hundres of dollars and hundreds of hours I'll NEVER GET BACK! Maybe you're OK with a company like Cryptic and its devs treating its customers like dirt, but I'm not!
Maybe you people don't feel cheated by these cretins, but I do, so don't tell me how I should feel about my experience with them, OK?!?
10/10/07 9:06:24 AM#65
Originally posted by ArcAngel3
One thing I appreciated about changes made to CoH over the past year and a half was that there was dialogue with me as a player about possible changes, pros and cons etc.. I didn't get that in SWG. We got an entirely new game system "sprung" on us, right after we bought an expansion designed for professions that were about to be entirely deleted. I also appreciate that CoH has tried to warn us of upcoming changes and their rationale for them. I liked being able to buff the heavy bots in Recluse Victory, but I understand why they felt they should change that, and I respect their reasoning. It didn't come as a bad surprise, nor was it senseless. Also, after changes have been made, we've always been given a free respec to modify our characters in light of the new changes. So yes, I've seen changes to the game over time, but the core game mechanics have always remained the same, the changes have made use of player input/dialogue, we've been advised of upcoming changes and the rationale for them, and we've been given respecs (that work--another happy change from SWG) to help us adjust to the game changes. So I can still understand people not liking changes to their game, but if they're made, my experience has been that the process is a lot more respectful and collaborative than what I was used to. I've appreciated that. When I felt robbed by SOE it was because I lost 3 entire mastered professions and 2 years worth of quest progress, and because this massive change was a very unpleasant surprise that rendered features I just bought in a new expansion useless. Losing my ability to buff the heavies in CoH could be desribed as getting a flu shot (it was a bit painful, but I understand the reason for it). The treatment I received from SOE was like a surprise decapitation.
I still respect someone else's right to be p.o.ed, but I wanted to highlight that comparing changes made in CoH to changes made via the NGE in StarWars Galaxies (comparison was made in one of Serling's posts I believe) is like comparing acorns to atom bombs.
10/10/07 10:46:16 AM#66
Originally posted by Serling
So if the game presented to you changes, you still enjoy the right to play as stipulated in the subscription, but you have no right to dictate when or how the game world be changed. The game belongs to Cryptic, you do not own a share of Cryptic or the game. NO.
All these are clearly delineated in the agreement you clicked AGREE before you can start playing a game. Its a contract. It is the contract you entered to with your payment. You are all wrong, the payment for services does not define a contractual relationship. Even if you enroll in a free game and hence no payment on your part, you are still bind by the contractual relationship when you click AGREE. If you do not read it, its your problem. If you violate the agreement when playing a free game, you are still legally liable.
The first dog I killed when I log on drop me a golden sword, when I log out and come back tomorrow, the game is twitched so that the dog no longer drop me a sword. Time to call the sheriff.
If the game experience MAY change, than change is a possibility and you are forewarned. If the weather guy says it may rain tomorrow, then you should be ready for it. You MAY die if you jump off a tall building. You might not die, but if you die, don't be surprised. MAY =/= WILL, yes, but MAY =/= WILL NOT. MAY means both are possible. It may not happen today, it may happen tomorrow or the day after.
10/10/07 4:12:31 PM#67
Originally posted by AlienShoresTwo things I wanted to see added to CoH were some form of crafting (beyond building bases and crafting temp powers), and more variety in the missions. Even though I liked the game when I started playing, I did notice the repetative nature of the missions, and wanted some diversity.
The crafting wishes were met with the introduction of the auction house, and the recipe and ingredients drops. It's a simple crafting system, and a simple economy, but they both work well and I find have a real fun factor. I especially get excited when costume piece recipes drop, or when I get a rare ingredient that's needed for premium enhancement sets.
I found that the Safeguard mission expansion in I9 added some diversity to the PVE experience. It was pretty cool to race against time to get the villains either before they rob the bank, or before they make it to the getaway truck. With a large group, you also get to fight an archvillain in the bank. Then what really made it interesting for me were the side missions you could unlock by finding and defeating the mobs with keys. Each of the side missions is unique (stop an arson attempt, find contraband weapons, prevent a jailbreak etc.) It's fast paced and has variety. I still enjoy those. I10 brought periodic alien invasions to spice things up, and a new high level zone full of missions. These missions also add some variety. Rescuing npc superheroes that fight alongside you against alien invaders is fun. The zone also feels like more of an immersive world in that you can battle Rikti across the zone in open areas, and join in multi-team raids to plant explosives on the alien mother ship and bring it down.
I'm an SWG vet, so used to enjoy base-busting pvp. I7, which came shortly after I started CoH added base busting to the mix in a high level PvP zone. You can also use heavy robot "pets" in that zone, which is fun for me, since I play a healer mainly.
I'd still like to see another element added to the game to promote non-combat socialization. I'm not sure what that would look like, but the game has been modified to try to address its earlier repetative nature. I think the changes are on track, but there's room for more to come.
10/10/07 11:58:45 PM#68
One final response to this bit of misinformation:
Tell this to the Assassins (A/Es), Ritualists, Elementalists (E/As), Warriors (W/Mos) and "55" Monks (Mo/Ws) who have solo builds that CAN solo - no heroes or NPCs - in places like the Underworld, Fissure of Woe, and other zones where they make huge loot and xp by farming whole zones!
In fact, guildwiki.org has lists of different solo farming builds people can link to and use to spec their characters for solo farming.
So yes, it is possible to solo in GW with the right build. And when you do, killing the equivalent of a +6 minion (Hard Mode) yields 300 xp per kill. With triple xp runes, that goes to 900 per kill! Even in Normal Mode, killing a +4 minion yields 250 xp per kill! And to get from one level to the next requires about 14,000 xp. That's flat for every level (skill point) you get at level 20. In CoH, you have to grind out 5 million XP just to get from level 40 to 50!!! Yeah, there's no grind at all in CoH!
But guess what? With a level cap of 20, XP in GW doesn't really matter. And now the A-Net devs are discussing no cap at all in GW2. The level grind is what drives people to keep paying subs to play, because everyone who plays wants to reach that gold at the end of the rainbow. Being a max-level toon is - for many players - a status symbol. It means "I've arrived". Take character progression via levelling out of the game, and you kill one more reason to grind, something the devs at Cryptic - apparently - know nothing about.
10/11/07 12:12:15 AM#69
Strawman. I never said I did. It's a rental agreement, not a purchase agreement.
And when said developer - namely Jack Emmert - wrote repeatedly that they should listen to their customers, that they should provide more information on what they were doing, that the customers deserved better communication from the devs, THEY were the ones creating the expectations many of us in the early days had about this game! Go back and read Emmert's comments from the beginning! He was the one saying they should listen to the customers and nerf "as little as possible"!
So on the one hand, they obligated themselves to a level of service they were neither able nor prepared to offer! That either makes them liars or incompetent, and while they had no contractual obligation to make the kind of promises they did regarding customer service - once they did THEY were the ones who created the unfulfilled expectations that pissed off a lot of people - even to this day!
Nerfs are one thing, but don't take my money then turn around and cheat and lie to me like I'm just a piece of dirt or an idiot! That is why these people get my contempt! If you can't "get that", that's your problem!
10/11/07 12:18:31 AM#70
OMG! LMAO!!! Go back and re-read the thread and then please point out where I EVER claimed to be objective on this!
My point about objectivity was to illustrate how the defense of this product is no more objective than a disdain for it. Clear enough for you now???
10/11/07 8:15:33 AM#71
Originally posted by SerlingOh come on try to reason, not shouting and screaming.
Yes the developer has suggested his intention to seek views from its players, including you but not just you. I played CoX too along with a lot of friends, and there are thousands more online everyday. I for one like the changes and spoke out against the Fire/cold tank, against the smoke tricks against chain summoning fire pets. Yes I do not like the game to be trivialis after lvl 32 with fire imps and after 36 with slotted fire imps. I welcome the change. I know you love your overpowered pets, sorry man, play another alt.
Too bad the developer cannot satisfy the views of everyone, and these views are conflicting. To each his own. You do not like the change you stopped paying, others enjoyed the change they keep paying. So? That is it period. Why keep posting here, criticising others who pays? Express your wishes but if its not adopted, move on.
They do not take your money and go around lying. You volunteer your own subscription, you try to buy an account and then maintain it with your own hands, not at gun point. Your subscription carried no conditions binding the game developer to twink the alts to your liking. You pay for it and regret now? Oh well next time you go to a movie and find your favourite hero killed, go sue the movie director and ask for your money back. He took your money and go around lying.
Stop posting emotion and start posting with reason. Know your limits. You are just 1 of a few tens of thousands of subscribers, and you only shore up $15 a month per account. That is hardly enough to pay for the energy bill for an hour. He does not serve you alone, control your ego. His only obligation is to give you a login account to participate in the game world when the servers are not down. Anything else you come yelling for is out of order, he does not owe you anything else. Try to ask politely and reason, and if he does not immediately implement what you want, wait or go play another game. That is your only option. Until you got enough money to buy Cyptic or NCSoft, that is all you can do.
Wait for the next patch and hope, or quit.
10/11/07 9:11:00 AM#72
I was a beta tester for CoH, and played it up through publish two or so (before the Winter Lords, which I understand was a powerleveling haven).
My reason for quitting? I was finishing off my Jedi grind in SWG. Had a house there, which automatically made it a stronger by in, and I was putting intensive effort into finishing that off. Wasn't playing CoH, as I was very, very close to finishing off a post-9, pre-CU MLS+MDef Jedi.
A lot has happened since then. Long story short, when I was finishing the Jedi grind, some folks who had helped me needed my help, and I was involved with their guild's crisis, and their town's crisis. By the time I had finished with those, NGE hit. In order to help mitigate that, I went looking for a game wherein our non-causual guild could replicate the feeling of having their town, houses, etc.
Found VSoH, took 'em there.
Now, I have time to take another look at CoH and CoV, and I must admit: the ED changes are more in-line with what I understood the powers to be intended to be, back in the day. Even at 34 (when I quit, that was actually close to the hero limit of 40), CoH is quite fun.
Flat out, I regret cancelling my subscription, and I have reknewed simply because it feels like the game I wanted to play, back in the way back. Personally, I'm glad that flight no longer has the 40% reduction in accuracy; a few of the other changes remind me a *lot* of the gripes we used to have (looks like most, if not all of my former complaints were actually fixed!)
11/05/07 11:35:25 PM#73
I know this is possibly the wrong place to be asking this...but of course i am still amazed at the fact that NCSoft does not release free trials like WoW, and Eve Online and other games, Don't you think the servers would have more people playing?!?! lol.
Anyway, I really need some help. Me and my best friend are debating on playing this game but we dont want to go out and spend money on this game just to find out that we don't like it, lol. Between the two of us buying the game and monthly time it would be rather disappointing to find out we wasted the money. I have searched and searched and searched and cannot find a code. I even have a friend who will re-activate his account to play with us if we start playing. Chances are if we start playing we'll end up paying to play it.
Does anyone know where I may be able to find 2 free trial codes? We both downloaded the game, all 2.5GB just to find out that we can't play it, lol talk about being rather frustrated.
If anyone can help i would greatly appreciate it, all i need is to find a code for myself and my friend. I would forever be grateful!
Along with replying to this, you can try emailing me at: firstname.lastname@example.org since i don't check this much. Thanks again!!
12/04/07 5:41:45 PM#74
I tried the 14 day free trial back when issue 10 came out... I'll post what I thought about the game.
Graphics: Sub-par with games I am used to. Most of my games have visuals that are far better than the ones in CoH/V. However, this is not a bad thing for me. The customization, even at a cost of the "Awe" factor is FAR worth it. The game runs smooth as silk for me with max settings and allows me to actually make a character I enjoy! Everything seems to blend terrificly so nothing seems out of place. Sure, not the best graphics, but that does not hurt it at all!
Leveling: Levels take a little bit. Not terribly slow, but they are not just handed out to you either. I really enjoyed getting new powers as I leveled up and the ability to choose what I got!!
Difficulty: Pretty easy as far as I am concerned. When I was playing, I spent my time as a Gravity Controller with force fields. I regularly soloed even mobs and even yellow cons. In groups I'd take on a yellow con mob and actually kill him faster than the group could kill the same mob type... go figure. This isn't to say I couldn't be over powered and killed. I went down many times, but I emerged victorious many more times. Many mobs are just plain EASY. But... Im a SUPER HERO... could you imagine lowly grunt taking out superman? HECK NO. Major Villians take out super heores... not grunts dang it! he he.
Loot?: I loved it. Thing would appear in my inventory bag thing whatever it was, and all things didn't require me to loot a corpse. I didn't need "gear" really either. I LOVED THIS. I play other MMOs where 95% of my time I work on harvesting, farming, etc, just to afford gear and spells to be able to lvl up to a point where I got to do it again. Here... I can just run off and save the day!
Overall: I love this game as a now casual player. I cannot be all hardcore like I was in EQ1, ain't got the time. This game allows me to come on with any amount of tme and feel accomplished. And since so many make alts, it's easy to find people to team with. There isnt people ALL over, which is nice too cuz I hate feeling overcrowded... we aren't so super if there are more heroes than regular people right? he he.
The bad is that the maps are used over and over again. Even in 14 days I was like "Seen it". But hey, EQ1 was like that too when they added the adventures. I had a good time with the game during my trial and am considaring getting the game.
12/04/07 5:49:16 PM#75
ty. i find everyones comments very interesting. I have played many mmo's but never tried COH. i am going to try out the free trial and see how i like it.
12/05/07 12:10:44 PM#76
Graphically, CoH is probably better than the cartooney look of That Other Game but not nearly as detailed as EQ2 or Vanguard. The character creation system is excellent, many many options available to you so you won't look like everyone else. Power effects are good eye candy too, with some good physics added in (mobs fall down stairs, bullet shells on ground scatter as you move thru them, etc).
Leveling is set to a good pace. For those that are "impatient" you can increase the difficulty of the missions for greater risk to gain greater rewards. Plus Hero side, usually when you arrive in Atlas Park at level 2 (from tutorial) many join a sewer team. After about an hour in the sewers you'll usually be around 7ish.
With Issue 9 they added a crafting system that doesn't break the game. Gives the hardcore types something to grind for, but those that don't want to can still compete decently.
Overall I've been very pleased with CoX. Since 2004 other games have come and went off my PC, yet CoX remains. One can only take so much dancing elves on mailboxes ya know.....