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News & Features Discussion  » General: Book Overview: Legend of The Syndicate

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67 posts found
  ABRaquel

Tipster

Joined: 1/19/04
Posts: 541

The air feels damp and oppressive, like a wet nun.

10/05/07 4:35:38 PM#61

 

Originally posted by Panilope

I don't recall asking you to convert to my viewpoint.  I don't recall requiring that you believe every word I say.  Frankly, I don't really care what you believe or don't believe.  There is plenty of typical forum trolling going on in this thread that I chose to offer a counter viewpoint based on our experience working with this guild.  If you don't like it or don't believe it or don't wish to accept the reality of it, that is your hangup, not mine.  I don't recall asking you to prove to me why I should give a hoot what you post or why anything you say should be any more relevant than anything anyone else says did I?  That is both the essence of what a forum means and it is also the primary reason forums are not used as a major source of gaming feedback.  They make people feel good because they get to post and let out their emotions but their actual value towards developing any meaningful content is nada.  But back to the topic you raised; I didn't ask you to prove you weren't a bully.  I just accepted that as fact.  You can either accept or dismiss my background but it doesn't really make a difference to me.  I am not here to convince you of my views.  I am simply here to share them, the same as you.  the difference is, I don't make global statements on behalf of all the other readers about what they should or shouldn't believe. Like I do in my day job, I make my case and let people decide what they will.   Since I don't think debating this with you will reach a conclusion you can accept, I do not see a reason to continue it.  I have said my piece.  You have said yours.  And with that, I wish you a good day and happy gaming.

 

Some times things are better if unsaid.

I'm not saying that you are a liar but your post just added more wood to the fire, since most people will outright dismiss it or even flame "The Syndicate" even more.

I understand when Developers work with old guilds, even my guild has worked with Arena.net and others during Alpha stage on some of their projects. What rubs people in the wrong way is always the way people portray themselves and unfortunately "The Syndicate" is NOT a guild that people really do look up or even know about them.

Just because they have hundreds of players in their guild doesn't make it more suitable to be legendary, just because they have been around for 10+ years doesn't make them any better than most guilds out there and just because they help some "unknown" developer that comes to MMORPG defending the reputation of The Syndicate saying that they are easy to work with, etc... doesn't elevate "The Syndicate" in my view and just adds fuel to this flame thread.

Its time to let this thread die, from all the replies in this thread only about 3 or 4 people actually like/know/belong to "The Syndicate" the rest don't like/know/belong to this guild.

EDIT: Again I have nothing against "The Syndicate" and I wish them all the best, the views and opinions expressed on this post are mine alone and do not reflect the position of my Guild towards "The Syndicate".

  Sornin

Novice Member

Joined: 2/28/07
Posts: 1138

Too weird to live, and too rare to die

10/05/07 8:40:02 PM#62

Originally posted by Panilope

I don't recall asking you to convert to my viewpoint.

I don't recall understanding what this sentence means.

I don't recall requiring that you believe every word I say.

I don't recall that being necessary to raise an objection.

Frankly, I don't really care what you believe or don't believe.

Clearly you do, else you would not post on forum and certainly not reply to responses, especially with a response like this.

There is plenty of typical forum trolling going on in this thread that I chose to offer a counter viewpoint based on our experience working with this guild.

Fair enough, I have no issues with that in and of itself.

If you don't like it or don't believe it or don't wish to accept the reality of it, that is your hangup, not mine.

Is it my hangup? No, I would say it is my privilege as a rational human being to be sceptical and question the "reality of it." You are claiming that someone who does not believe you has a problem, when the only "reality of it" is that dissenting opinions are perfectly normal and fine.

I don't recall asking you to prove to me why I should give a hoot what you post or why anything you say should be any more relevant than anything anyone else says did I?

I do not either, but then I never claimed that what I said was more relevant because I did not claim any form of authority; you did, which means your words, when substantiated are more relevant, and that is an earned privilege, not one granted for making unvalidated claims.

That is both the essence of what a forum means and it is also the primary reason forums are not used as a major source of gaming feedback.  They make people feel good because they get to post and let out their emotions but their actual value towards developing any meaningful content is nada.

I have no reply to this because it is a tangent and could be its own topic, "The psychology of forums."

But back to the topic you raised; I didn't ask you to prove you weren't a bully.  I just accepted that as fact.

If dissenting, debating, and not swallowing everything I read wholesale makes me a bully, then sure, I am a bully and proud of it.

You can either accept or dismiss my background but it doesn't really make a difference to me.

Thanks for the option, I choose the latter, thank you, but am willing to reconsider if you provide that tasty thing called proof.

I am not here to convince you of my views.

Excellent, then you will not be disappointed that you have not done so. By not seeking victory you have removed the possibility of defeat.

I am simply here to share them, the same as you.  the difference is, I don't make global statements on behalf of all the other readers about what they should or shouldn't believe.

And neither have I. I, too, stated my opinion, and you are just upset that it happens to call your opinion a fabrication. Be that as it may, other readers and posters are free to agree with me, agree with you, or form a new view.

Like I do in my day job, I make my case and let people decide what they will.   Since I don't think debating this with you will reach a conclusion you can accept, I do not see a reason to continue it.  I have said my piece.  You have said yours.  And with that, I wish you a good day and happy gaming.

Debating this with me could easily reach a conclusion I could accept, if you merely had the courage to back up claims with sources. You have claimed you work for a company that works with The Syndicate on professional projects, so prove it. Give us a link. Point to some things they have done. Tell us about what exactly your company does, how they do it, why they do it, and whom they do it for.

Anyway, it looks as though I touched upon a nerve.

There is a large difference between plainly stating an opinion on a forum, which many here have done quite well, and using credentials, inside sources, or other such things as the basis for one. The former does not attempt to gain validity by implying authority, while the latter certainly does.

If you want to reference companies, jobs, or sources, you have to come prepared to disclose them, else you add nothing to a discussion but smoke and mirrors. No rational person is going to believe someone who just happens to have an inside scoop, at a convenient time, yet makes no effort to validate it.

I have made no claims about my authority or credentials, as I have none pertinent to this discussion, so I do not have to provide any. If I were to claim I am an industry expert and wanted people to take my opinion seriously based on that, I would provide proof; hell, even just some names would help. You cannot even provide a name for the fabled company which relies on The Syndicate for various things. Therefore, while you certainly can say how you feel about the guild, you should also expect to be called out when that includes contact on a professional level, especially when it sounds like it came right off their own website.

I urge anyone to go to www.llts.org and see how much they stress how great they are on almost every page, whenever possible. While it is fair to mention achievements, this is so prevalent in almost every part of the site that you wonder if whoever is writing it can find hats to fit their head!

The best passage:

"Follow The Syndicate as they navigate the ever-changing online world and develop into an unstoppable juggernaut that shaped the future of the virtual world."

Who can write that? Honestly! An unstoppable juggernaut? Shaping the future of the virtual world. All of it. Not one part of it. The entire virtual world.

  rogee14

Novice Member

Joined: 4/10/06
Posts: 18

10/05/07 11:39:16 PM#63

I don't understand why people who've not read the book are opening their mouth about it

If you've read it, please give some feed back. If you have not read it, please stfu.

I still can't believe how much bullsh!t I had to read thru, just to read the hand-full of post worth reading.

Thanks for the well thought and worded posts Panilope.

The rest of you go enjoy a game or a girlfriend, or read a good book

UO,EQ,AC,AO,DAoC,Lin,RoE,E&B,SB,EVE,PS,SL,SWG,TT,FFXI,
HZ,CoH,L2,Ryz,EQ2,WoW,GW,RF,DDO,SR,FoM,Van,

  Syndicate

Novice Member

Joined: 1/26/04
Posts: 20

10/06/07 8:32:16 AM#64

We would like to once again than Jon for taking the time to read our book and offer up his review of it.  The large volume of emails we have received to discuss various aspects of it and of our guild has been amazing.  Just in the past week we were able to help three guilds begin the process of trademarking their guild names.  We were able to work with several guilds to help flesh out their recruiting practices and/or their internal rules to help them develop stability in their communities....  MMORPG.COM was able to help us make those new friends and hopefully strengthen the overall gaming community a little bit more.

While we do have a high opinion of ourselves and our achievements, we are also HUGE supporters of a stable, successful online gaming community....  Whether you measure your success by how quickly you defeat a monster.. or your prowess against other players in battle.. or by the longevity and stability of your community.. or by the amount of fun you have with your buddies.. there is room enough for all to have fun and be their own 'success' in the virtual worlds.  If we haven't already met and become friends and if our path and yours can cross in a positive way in the future we would love to make contact with you and your guild.  A stronger community benefits us all.  It means more people playing games for longer.  That means more revenue for developers which means more investment in new games which leads to new and exciting worlds for us all to enjoy for years to come. 

We do recognize there will still be naysayers out there that like to put us or others down.  That is the nature of the beast when it comes to online gaming.  We subscribe to the sentiment behind the following quote when it comes to dealing with that: "For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe, no explanation is possible."  We look forward to many years of fun, successful, rewarding online gaming and community development with all of you. 

  Bountytaker

Novice Member

Joined: 1/09/07
Posts: 323

10/07/07 12:21:50 PM#65
Originally posted by Syndicate

We would like to once again than Jon for taking the time to read our book and offer up his review of it.  The large volume of emails we have received to discuss various aspects of it and of our guild has been amazing.  Just in the past week we were able to help three guilds begin the process of trademarking their guild names.  We were able to work with several guilds to help flesh out their recruiting practices and/or their internal rules to help them develop stability in their communities....  MMORPG.COM was able to help us make those new friends and hopefully strengthen the overall gaming community a little bit more.

While we do have a high opinion of ourselves and our achievements, we are also HUGE supporters of a stable, successful online gaming community....  Whether you measure your success by how quickly you defeat a monster.. or your prowess against other players in battle.. or by the longevity and stability of your community.. or by the amount of fun you have with your buddies.. there is room enough for all to have fun and be their own 'success' in the virtual worlds.  If we haven't already met and become friends and if our path and yours can cross in a positive way in the future we would love to make contact with you and your guild.  A stronger community benefits us all.  It means more people playing games for longer.  That means more revenue for developers which means more investment in new games which leads to new and exciting worlds for us all to enjoy for years to come. 

We do recognize there will still be naysayers out there that like to put us or others down.  That is the nature of the beast when it comes to online gaming.  We subscribe to the sentiment behind the following quote when it comes to dealing with that: "For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe, no explanation is possible."  We look forward to many years of fun, successful, rewarding online gaming and community development with all of you. 


To be fair and balanced, I'll say that this post was MUCH better than your original.  Better wording, tone, and topic.  Very different than the arrogance filled first one.  Nice job adjusting/improving the PR.

  Bountytaker

Novice Member

Joined: 1/09/07
Posts: 323

10/07/07 12:26:14 PM#66

Originally posted by Panilope

Bountytaker, your observation is valid if all we did was work with one group and all decisions were based off of that one set of interactions.  My comments above were an explanation as to why we did work with The Syndicate but should not be taken as policy statement that the only thing we do is to work with them.  A book could be written entirely on the topic of how game concepts are created and fleshed out.  Myself and our entire team are all gamers the same as any other development team.  So a primary source for ideas is our own experience.  Many of us are in guilds.  A couple of my team are in The Syndicate but many more of us are in other guilds.  We discuss ideas with the people we know there and factor that in.  A common thing studios do is to run focus groups.  They are another source of input.  Sometimes marketing companies are engaged to do their own focus groups and research.  The big trump card is, of course, the actual beta test.  We do closed betas and internal betas and friends and family betas and guild betas and the like in order to get feedback.  My post above merely states why we do work with The Syndicate and what they bring to the table for us.  We do a great deal of other information collection and fleshing out of ideas from a variety of sources.

 

I am sure someone will point out that I didn't really mention forums as a source.  Every game has forums but there is a very low signal to noise ratio on them.  Too many complainers and whiners with incoherent thoughts.  Too many varying minority viewpoints that often conflict with each other.  What we use forums for is to look for constructive participants that we can then include in our focus groups and in our beta testing.  Those people don't have to agree with the majority, and it is often good if they don't, but we do not value or utilize flames and whining posts which often dominate forums.

 

The Syndicate is a group that we are glad to work with and have as a part of our process but it is not the only part of our process.  A fantastic amount of ideas go into designing a game and those come from a bunch of sources.

 


My comment(s) were directed specifically at your statement that this guilds "longevitiy" was primary in making them usefull.  Not that guilds, in general, were the only usefull tools in game development, for I am not so uneducated to think that a game is designed with only one set of feedback.

 

My point, simply, was that as much as "longevity" might make a group seem optimal for advice, isn't there also the high probability, in the mmo genre, that choosing advisors based on "longevitiy" could also be detrimental.

 

If you want to comment on that specific topic, your comments and mine, feel free.  If you're done, that's fine too.

  Panilope

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/02/07
Posts: 4

10/07/07 1:23:47 PM#67

Bountytaker, I agree with you about longevity if it is the sole determining factor in who we or any company works with.  A better way to have explained myself would have been to highlight the qualities we look for and explain that those qualities take time to develop.  Since there are so many guilds overloading the gaming world and because most of them are flashes in the pan, most groups do not develop those qualities to the extent that they get noticed and validated by we the development teams.  If we are all being honest here, we should be able to agree that many of the most vocal forum guilds during the beta stage are often nonexistant by the time the game begins or within a few months of the game going live.  So longevity is a means by which qualities such as stability, a track record of success, a reputation for quality work that includes meeting deadlines and producing meaningful results and the like can be created.  Simply being old, as you said, is not sufficient.  It takes a great deal of time to develop a meaningful track record so you stand out from the swarm of guilds out there. 

Longevity, therefore, is an important component to my personal scorecard when I look for partners in the community.  You could equate it to applying for a job.  If you send in a resume that contains very little experience you are less likely to get the job.  In order to have a resume that contains enough experience, time has to pass and you have to do noteworthy things during that time.  So at the risk of being slammed for pointing it out again, The Syndicate is very old and over their years of existence they have worked on many projects and have fleshed out their resume.  Because of that, I have a high level of confidence in their ability to produce results, in a timely manner, of the level of quality I need and expect.  They aren't the only source of player feedback we use but they are a valuable one.

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