Originally posted by Anofalye

Favorable criticism...here is some for you:

 

Raid-free server, where all you do is add an alternative way to raiding, so all groupers can get this raiding gear in another, "easier", way.  Be it on merchant, in the loot table of some mobs, whatever...

 

See, how many games out there are not ending in PvP or in Raiding?  Only 1, and it is CoX.  And guess what...it is the LEADING non-fantasy MMO; despite a long history of nerfing (and this is extremely bad to nerfs players who are PROGRESSING...but that would be another topic in itself).

 

You have data, go check EQ and EQ2... pick any moment of the day you prefer, whichever.  Look at the % of players currently in a raid serverwide.  This is a minority among the minority of players who remains/play these games.  Catering to them at the expense of the majority is non-sense.  I can understand that devs remove the unlimited levels which were catering to players like me, but to replace it by something worser?  All the games out there, they either cater to this minority...or they are PvP.

What are you babbbling about? All the fantasy based game needs end game content. Hence it is the reason why soe, blizzard needs high end raiding guild's help to shape, test contents for all fantasy based games. Without a high end guild helping QA contents there wouldnt be any quality raiding content in any mmo games. Did I mention WOW  is still #1 mmo market. It has raids, so why arient those 8 million subscribers quit then? Believe it or not, People raid for gears. Its called progression of characters. You say people dont want to raid, but data in wow clearly shows there are raids going on in Wow or another fantasy mmorpg. Vangaurd is a unpolished piece of trash, they dont even know how to code the game engine well. It's a dead game, and im ashamed to even purchase guild edition of vanguard for it. Vanguard is trash.

Vanguard for me has been enjoyable, I like all aspects of it. I honestly think that it can be resurrected to be a great game now that Sony has control over it. I don't think that Sigil had the resources to complete this project, it was just to ambtious. The main issue I have with it is server population.  It can be hard at times to find a non guild xp group although for the most part you can find a group to do the major quest lines.  One of the biggest problems that Vanguard faced was that it was a resource hog. It needed an above average machine to run it smoothly. When I firts started I had a AMD 2900+ Socket A chip and a ATI 800x card. I had to run it at low settings but I could still struggle through it.

One things I think that could possible help is revamp the grind from 1-30. Make it more solo friendly a bit more crafting xp would be nice also.  However, if Sony does that they risk the anger of players who want the game harder. (I find it funny that Valent of whatever his name is wants to make the game easier but so many players are complaining that Sigil made it to easy) I am a 27 Weaponsmith right now, I get a little less that 1% xp per item made in a work order. I get abotu 3-4% for a batch work order. when I am adventuring I get about 1% xp per kill. However I get significant xp for completing quests. If I recall I was getting about .3% xp per kill at level 59 When I was playing EQ2. So if they were trying to slow down xp then they accomplished that. However one thing they forgot, is that no matter what  yoru vision of the game is, you still need people to play. Yes you will have the people who enjoy the "hardcoreness" of the game btu they are not enough to succesfully run the game. So now Sony has a critical decision to make. revamp the game to make it appeal to more players or alienate some of the current vanguard crowd. Its a tough decision to make.

What I can't stand is that some people who have not played the game since beta or release keep slamming this game. They make false statements about performance and what not.  A month ago I upgraded to a E6600 2 gigs ram 8800 GTS card. I run this game at high settings at about 35 FPS. The game is one of the most beautiful I have playered. So yes performace is an issue if you have a sub standard rig. But since mine is no longer I really enjoy it.

Now this is not to say that Vanguard is not without problems right now.  There are some. World population, empty areas, bugs, etc I would advise people to wait a couple more months, give Sony about 3 months or so to fix and change some things and give the free trial a shot. Make your own decision, don't listen to people who obviosuly hate the game for whatever reason. I have yet to find a MMO that I haven't given it a second third or fourth try. If I don't like it I will wait and see what they change 6 months or a year down the road and try it again, especially if it is free! After all, what do you have to loose but a few hours of  your time.

Originally posted by Furor

Did I mention WOW  is still #1 mmo market. It has raids, so why arient those 8 million subscribers quit then? Believe it or not, People raid for gears. Its called progression of characters. You say people dont want to raid, but data in wow clearly shows there are raids going on in Wow or another fantasy mmorpg.

But WoW has seen that large-man raids are not as popular as they first thought.   The BC Expansion abolished 40-man raids and there are much more 5-man end-game dungeons.  There are still 20-man raids of course and it's likely raids will always be a MMORPG mechanic but there was that infamous statement from Blizzard where they revealed the number of raids that occur on a typical weekend on the US servers at the first Blizzcon and the number was about 10% of the total US server population.   

It's a minority who raid but they are the hardcore audience that will always be a part of MMORPGs so raids will be as well.   But don't be surprised if future games take the same turn as WoW and lessen large-scale raid content.   We're already seeing that with the upcoming batch of games, I don't remember hearing about a single one that is touting large-scale raids as a major feature (though they still might be a part of the games).

As for the thread topic, I find myself doubting the statements of ANYONE claiming the game run wells for them.  And if they're claiming that they're 'ignoring' bugs I counter that if they want to pay a company to produce a buggy-game then that's their problem and it's just convincing companies that they can produce trash and people will buy it.

When they have the free trial, I will give the game a try and then I'll make up my own mind but I have to say the 'haters' have a lot more backing them up in terms of hard, solid FACTS than ANY of the Vanbois.

Some people just don't understand the difference between fact and opinion and I'm not going to say that Vanguard is a Magnum Opus or anything, because it simply isn't but I get tired of trash talkers and people who insist that their personal insight, backed by whatever fact is supposed to be enough to for anyone to just give up or say, yeah, "you're absolutely right.. I must be a total moron not to see the world exactly as you do."  That's called a lack of respect and consideration.  At that point it isn't about who's right or wrong.  We all like what we like.

100000 people could tell me that the concept and mechanics suck but that's still opinion.  The only fact is that 100000 people said it and I'm not those people.  I don't like Monster Energy Drink.. It tastes like bad cough syrup to me but someone likes it because they're still selling it.  Does that make it a bad drink?  No.. its just my opinion.

That's the way it seems.

Here's my opinion: 

Vanguard could have been better.. It could have been tons better in content and polish.  However, I like the concept and I like the mechanics.  I like most of the classes.  I still haven't found an MMO where I enjoy every single class combination they have.  I like the concept they used for crafting and diplomacy.. its still lacking but I don't think there's a single MMO that could live up to what I think those two SHOULD be.  So, I putter away playing EQ2 and Vanguard casually with friends while I beta and watch the MMO scene.  I've trialed or been in Beta for most MMOs and I, of all people, should know what I enjoy. 

My machine ran vanguard alright in Beta and after my most recent upgrade it runs it at max settings between 24 and 45 fps, dipping its lowest, usually in cities.  People had video problems and still do.. I just happen to not have suffered from much of it.  There were all kinds of bugs:  Buffs that canceled when hitting a chunk line, instadeath on crossing chunk lines, stuck in the world, stuck on objects, guildinvites that wouldn't work across chunks, social server crashes, bugged groups, bugged chat, broken quests, classes that needed revamped... there were tons of things that couldn't be put in because it was simply released too early with too little testing and too little funding.

I like Vanguard for the most part and it may die or it may not but don't posture and lecture me or treat me like I'm stupid because I like SoBe instead of Monster. 

Originally posted by Alienovrlord

 

Originally posted by Bahamutff10

 

Originally posted by Alienovrlord

 We are also finalizing the Brotherhood system. This will allow you and your Brotherhood members to share XP, even when your characters are offline." Bill explained that it was a device to keep friends together.

Now THIS is a great idea! Neat new take on a way of keeping friends together in a MMORPG.  It will be interesting to see if they can make this mechanic work.

This is a very old idea thought up by Sigil and was called the Fellowship system. I don't remember Sigil implementing it but they still deserve credit for thinking of it.

If Sigil thought it up, why didn't they implement it? 

I can say I thought up the idea for anti-gravity boots.  That doesn't mean I should get credit for them if someone else makes a working pair.

Talk is cheap.  Getting an idea to work is what makes one deserving of credit.  Of course, the SOE people sitll have to show they can implement the idea successfully.

Originally posted by shrunken_man

I hope Vanguard can be fixed. Despite all the negativity, I still want to play it.

I'm just waiting for the polish.

Well said, sums up my feeling atm.  Despite the negativity, I had fun for quite a few months in VG and hope they can improve the game more so I can continue to play it. 

Originally posted by beauxaj

 

Originally posted by Alienovrlord

 

Originally posted by Bahamutff10

 

Originally posted by Alienovrlord

 We are also finalizing the Brotherhood system. This will allow you and your Brotherhood members to share XP, even when your characters are offline." Bill explained that it was a device to keep friends together.

Now THIS is a great idea! Neat new take on a way of keeping friends together in a MMORPG.  It will be interesting to see if they can make this mechanic work.

This is a very old idea thought up by Sigil and was called the Fellowship system. I don't remember Sigil implementing it but they still deserve credit for thinking of it.

If Sigil thought it up, why didn't they implement it? 

I can say I thought up the idea for anti-gravity boots.  That doesn't mean I should get credit for them if someone else makes a working pair.

Talk is cheap.  Getting an idea to work is what makes one deserving of credit.  Of course, the SOE people sitll have to show they can implement the idea successfully.

Actually its an old idea alright, It came from Asheron's Call way back in 1999 when they called it a monarchy.  You can wrap it up in a new name but its pretty much the same thing.   I knew of one person who had a few people beneath him because they started out together. All his friends played hardcore and would have been 30+ levels higher than him if not for that system. 

 

 

Now this is just another reason I think VG will fail to get out of the niche it is now. It all sounds cool in theory. Like migrating mobs in D&L sounded cool.

But in fact, its just another not really thought through concept like SO MANY from the "vision".

What does it do?

It makes those who play sacrifice a part of their XP to those that dont. WTH? Why should someone, anyone give away his hard earned XP (especially since XP doesnt come cheap in VG anyway) to a person who is either lazy or has no time. I mean, its up to everyone how much he plays or not, I really dont care. But why should I give them XP presents?

And the other way around. I log out with my lv 15 char, because I have some holiday or journey, and when I come back he is 25 and I missed all the 15-25 level quests? WTF?

Sorry, this is totally BS IMO. Why not make some SIMPLE pragmatic, old fashioned mentoring? And add some side-kicking as in CoH. problem solved.

Its the typical example of those high nosed Sigil devs, who wanted to re-invent the wheel, and better, just to satisfy their egos and show novelty just for the sake of novelty. Mentoring was good, so why change a running system? I dont the heck want to give XP for nothing nor receive XP for nothing. The enitre idea was bad from start, like many, and was innovation merely for the sake of innovation. Why SOE still works on it under a new name but same system is beyond me. Its CRAP like so many of those "visions".  Bah.

The above poster has some valid points, except for the fact that A) You don't have to be in a fellowship and B) You probably don't play with other people. My whole crew was waiting for this feature to come into play before we quit months ago. Why? Because some of us worked and some of us had time off so we could help eachother get through the levels. Not everyone plays a game for PvE content... Not that it isn't cool, but playing on the PvP server means that PvE is second and PvP is first, so leveling as fast as possible is definitely a good thing. Missing out on the quests means nothing in that situation. *EDIT* Isn't this supposed to be an MMO? You're playing by yourself if you're complaining the way that you are I'm very sure. Learn to socialize and compose a group of individuals with likeminded goals and stop being so greedy, thinking that your precious XP is going to be "stolen". Your entire philosophy of the subject has so many holes that it looks like swiss cheese. 

Also, some people don't like going through the same exact quests every time they reroll a character. Believe me, if you want to bring up the argument of, "but not every race/class gets the same quests d00d!", then let me excuse my previous statement and say that upwards of 95-98% of the quests you do will be ones that you had already done. Woohoo, so fun to read the lore every single time you level a character to 40+, which by the way takes very little time even by going through quests. If you care, you can accept the quest and read its dialogue on the way to your quest monsters or areas... It saves time.

Originally posted by Tekkaman

The above poster has some valid points, except for the fact that A) You don't have to be in a fellowship and B) You probably don't play with other people. My whole crew was waiting for this feature to come into play before we quit months ago. Why? Because some of us worked and some of us had time off so we could help eachother get through the levels. Not everyone plays a game for PvE content... Not that it isn't cool, but playing on the PvP server means that PvE is second and PvP is first, so leveling as fast as possible is definitely a good thing. Missing out on the quests means nothing in that situation. *EDIT* Isn't this supposed to be an MMO? You're playing by yourself if you're complaining the way that you are I'm very sure. Learn to socialize and compose a group of individuals with likeminded goals and stop being so greedy, thinking that your precious XP is going to be "stolen". Your entire philosophy of the subject has so many holes that it looks like swiss cheese. 

Also, some people don't like going through the same exact quests every time they reroll a character. Believe me, if you want to bring up the argument of, "but not every race/class gets the same quests d00d!", then let me excuse my previous statement and say that upwards of 95-98% of the quests you do will be ones that you had already done. Woohoo, so fun to read the lore every single time you level a character to 40+, which by the way takes very little time even by going through quests. If you care, you can accept the quest and read its dialogue on the way to your quest monsters or areas... It saves time.

My point is, as the word is "the way is the goal". I dont play to "get this and that level", I play to enjoy the game itself, so I dont see the point in giving XP for free. Its a contradiction to all I feel makes a MMO: that you WORKED for what you get. It doesnt mean you cant get help, mentoring can help. But its not giving things for nothing. If you lack the time to level, well you bad luck, but I dont have 3 dozens of friends who carry me all along while I play with myself rather than the game and then get an uber level char for nothing. I have to work every single XP point and the idea others get XP for nothing sucks. Simple as that. I prefer PVE yes, but in PVP it would suck EVEN MORE, to be nuked down by someone who has a max level char who were online just a few days because he has generous friends. Or pays them to XP for him. No thanks, I dont like this feature at all. As I said, its a matter of philosophy for me that people have to work for what they get, and that I know, when I look at some char, what he is and has is the result of that person's work.

Originally posted by Alienovrlord

 

Originally posted by Furor

Did I mention WOW  is still #1 mmo market. It has raids, so why arient those 8 million subscribers quit then? Believe it or not, People raid for gears. Its called progression of characters. You say people dont want to raid, but data in wow clearly shows there are raids going on in Wow or another fantasy mmorpg.

But WoW has seen that large-man raids are not as popular as they first thought.   The BC Expansion abolished 40-man raids and there are much more 5-man end-game dungeons.  There are still 20-man raids of course and it's likely raids will always be a MMORPG mechanic but there was that infamous statement from Blizzard where they revealed the number of raids that occur on a typical weekend on the US servers at the first Blizzcon and the number was about 10% of the total US server population.   

It's a minority who raid but they are the hardcore audience that will always be a part of MMORPGs so raids will be as well.   But don't be surprised if future games take the same turn as WoW and lessen large-scale raid content.   We're already seeing that with the upcoming batch of games, I don't remember hearing about a single one that is touting large-scale raids as a major feature (though they still might be a part of the games).

As for the thread topic, I find myself doubting the statements of ANYONE claiming the game run wells for them.  And if they're claiming that they're 'ignoring' bugs I counter that if they want to pay a company to produce a buggy-game then that's their problem and it's just convincing companies that they can produce trash and people will buy it.

When they have the free trial, I will give the game a try and then I'll make up my own mind but I have to say the 'haters' have a lot more backing them up in terms of hard, solid FACTS than ANY of the Vanbois.

You are somehow half correct. There are tons of people that have the motivation to raid for gears. Again its called "Motivation" to advance your character . Nobody forces you to raid.

Originally posted by Furor

You are somehow half correct. There are tons of people that have the motivation to raid for gears. Again its called "Motivation" to advance your character . Nobody forces you to raid.

I am MOTIVATED, a LOT more then any raider.  But I won't raid.

And since I won't be the best grouper if I don't raid, the game indeed force me to raid.

Originally posted by Furor

What are you babbbling about? All the fantasy based game needs end game content. Hence it is the reason why soe, blizzard needs high end raiding guild's help to shape, test contents for all fantasy based games. Without a high end guild helping QA contents there wouldnt be any quality raiding content in any mmo games. Did I mention WOW  is still #1 mmo market. It has raids, so why arient those 8 million subscribers quit then? Believe it or not, People raid for gears. Its called progression of characters. You say people dont want to raid, but data in wow clearly shows there are raids going on in Wow or another fantasy mmorpg. Vangaurd is a unpolished piece of trash, they dont even know how to code the game engine well. It's a dead game, and im ashamed to even purchase guild edition of vanguard for it. Vanguard is trash.

WoW success has nothing to do with it raid component.  WoW is successfull despite it raid hindrance, which is hurting, slowing, and eventually will cause it downfall.

Raiding is not wanted by the overwhelming majority of players.  I come to terms with the fact they don't want unlimited levels, maybe it is your turn to come to term with the fact they don't want a FOREIGN gameplay to infrige on grouping.

The data in WoW clearly shows that raiders are a minority, that most players don't want to raid.  Now, consider this...is there more players who quit WoW or more players raiding and enjoying it?  Bashing Vanguard won't suddenly makes raiding a good decision, it is the worst decision Blizzard ever took, and they will pay the price in the next release...million copy sold...not going to happen again.

Raiding is a form of timesink to keep players subscribed that is why all the mmo fantasy rpg have them. It's there to give people who max out their level incentive to do. Vaguard's raiding system is trash, hence the dropout rate of vanguard guildes are high. Ask any level 50 vanguard players if there are any end game content, vanguard at level 50 have nothing to do in adventuring sphere.

This game will never be what they wanted it to be. There will always be people out there that give their money away no matter how bad it is or getting. I mean you could have proof that SOE doesnt care about the game and will never change it and they will still pay every month saying "oh I love this game its one of the best out there. Nothing looks as beautiful as this game". But I think this game needs a good year or two and  if SOE listens to its players and keeps at it. Then it will have a chance.

I do get a kick out of most vanbois still raiding these forums that spout off about facts and opinions, and which carries the most weight...

Get it straight- Im not trying to convince anyone NOT to play this game or TO play it, for the last poster that went on a severly long diatribe about my trying to influence him- look dude- Im not trying to convince anyone of anything- the facts are already out there about the horrible game that Vanguard is.

The only thing Im trying to make clear is that, you people who are backing this piece of trash up are the MINORITY. Perhaps you havent played a good game before to know what a real game that is not carbon copied from another looks like....perhaps you havent played an MMO that doesnt have a cookie cutter boring combat system....or perhaps your views just suck in general- whatever the case may be- the MAJORITY of the MMO market has spoken very clearly- Vanguard is trash, and its dying on a limb and now suffering from horrible and laughable reviews like this one.

Since you guys are so caught up in facts and opinions, I would think that the 100,000+ people leaving this community and cancelling their accounts would be a pretty clear cut fact that a game sucks. Thats no opinion, and only one other MMO on the market could argue that it lost such a massive consumer base quicker (Dark and Light). TO me, thats the most prominenet FACT of all.

Vanboi opinionaters or not, you cant cover up the fact that you like a dying game that the majority of the MMO community thinks is a terrible waste of money and time.

Originally posted by Kraenee

 

Originally posted by mastershado

Wow I hear alot of uninformed posts lately. People that play the game and are hurt by SOE taking over or by sigils reign of terror. Such big words from such small people. I play Vanguard, most of the "bugs" they are referring to are quests you may never touch for 6 months, things not dropping appropriatly or some off the wall small glitch that doesn't effect the majority of players. Sure bugs are irritating, but I have played through countless beta's and releases of so many games it's sick, and guess what? They all do this, some worse some better but they all do it it's called "making a game" Vanguard has 3 tree's of things you can do Adventuring, diplomacy and crafting. The adventuring I don't find boring at all I look forward to new skills and going to new places I also enjoy toying with the stats on my character to make him my way and not some carbon copy clone from a template like so many other games.

 You don't have to like the game, but I run a very sub par machine with 1 gig of ram and guess what, I average 50fps+ it's called not being an idiot, if you go into many new games crank the settings to max and then run through a mob zone on your old ass rig you will get the same effect as in Vanguard you hitch, you lose framerates like mad and you die. Grow up quit slamming a game that most people haven't even played, if you don't want to play don't, it will save our so called "small community" from ignorance and general flaming. Most of the people leaving due to server merge is because they are losing the RP tag, I play on Florendyl and they feel "betrayed" somehow by SOE but the truth is, this isn't OUR game it's theirs and if we don't like it we can leave.

 As for me I will continue playing and having fun doing hundreds of quests with great stories, new places and sailing my boat around, and at the end of the day I will relax in my humble log cabin and put my feet up by the fire and listen to the whiners in OOC chat about how hard or unfair something is.

I about died laughing when I read this vanboi tripe! Dude give us all a break!  Most of us that played the game know the truth and are telling it the way it is and was for months. And because we have been telling the truth the rabid vanboi's have been name calling and trying to disinform the public about this game.

 

Let's look at the facts shall we.

First of all the framerate "claim"  Go here and see for yourself the amount of peeps having big time problems.

http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/forums/show.m?forum_id=8

I don't think a duocore 6700 , 4 gigs 1.2 gig ram and an 8800gtx card is an "old ass rid" so get it right. Also look at MMORPG's own vanguard forums about people posting how horible the framerates have been.  Also if framerate are NOT a problem then why is SOE been sooo busy trying to improve them?

second fact: over 150,000 people have left the game! Why? because they were all "haters"? NOPE! cause the game is bad!

third fact: New well polished games DON't have server merges 6 months out!

Fourth fact: The game STILL hitches, lags and crashes. How do we know? Because the devs SAY IT DOES and that is why they are WORKING on it. I don't think they would be saying they are working on something that doesn't exist.

Fifth fact: Brad himself has said the game was NOT ready for release! and has said he was sorry for it but they ran out of money!.  This HAS been posted on these forums and on other forums as well. So LOOK it up!

Sixth fact: Sigil (Brad) has lied about this product all along! This has been proven as well on F13's site! Once again look it up!  Microsoft knew it as well and after spending 30mil on the project dumped it.

There are so many more but.. I digress cause I understand that zealous vanboi's are not thinking with their brains but with their "feelings" and no matter how much bad news or how many people tell the truth about the game they will continue on with religious fevor, evangelistically praising a game that is STILL in beta as shown in this interview but was a complete rip off to many.

Why do we so called "haters" keep telling the truth about this game? Cause we feel we were ripped off and we don't want others to be ripped off because of rose colored reviews by vanboi's.

BTW the NGE was NOT wanted by players. SOE should've figured that out when people left in protest after the CU! get your facts straight.  Just like people didn't want to lose the RP server and the Team PVP server but we all know SOE and when they get an idea in their heads they will do it no matter what! AFTER they told us their plans the RP server and the team PVP server started to die off as been stated on SOE's forums!! by Hasium himself! Once again LOOK IT UP!

And for those of you that stated that SOE is NOT to blame for the release? SOE was the publisher of this tittle NOT Sigil! Sigil did ask for more time and money to finish the game and SOE and SMED said NO!! This is also a documented FACT! So it is SOE's fault for releasing the game in beta form and they knew it WAS NOT READY! So yeah it IS their fault!

I love how nubs post without knowing their facts.

 You don't have to like the game, or anything in it, you can quote as many sites as you like and do as much research on why this game sucks or lacks to perform in ways you want it too. But the truth is you spend so much time slamming, quoting and forum flaming that you forget one important thing. The real players are playing. Have fun. I know I will and won't get your response for a few more weeks atleast.

Ok, so they are fixing the game engine.   They are fixing the Lore. . . .Throw in a new map and we've got a completely new game. 

Seriously folks.