General Discussion

Why do you bungee jump? Jump out of a plane at 100 kms? RIsk  = Adrenaline. Even if it is just a video game.

Originally posted by cheshyrecat

Originally posted by JADEDRAG0N

Originally posted by ASmith84

 if i beat you playin chess do you automatically start sucking and forget how to play? so why does it make sense that when you die in a mmo that you should get weaker? if we are playing laser tag and my team wins would it make sense to give your team weaker guns? no it wouldnt. Terrable examples why not try mine. If i ran you through with a sword then cut off your head what ahppens to you?

i dont know about you guys but i dont like doin quests over and over just to get my guy to max lvl to do the real fun stuff. Thats called A.D.D loosin xp just postpones the fun stuff from you. i dont like that.  now if there is no fun stuff at max lvl then why you playin that game?

now for the no risk no reward, cant loose whats to win stuff. you already paid for the game and had to wait for it to install so your a looser at the beginning. playing it is the reward, winning, part because you are having fun with it.

for the get the noobs out of the game thing.  no matter what you do or where you do it there will be someone to mess it up.theres people who want to do somthing and others to mess it up its life get over it.

 

Whats the point of PvP or PvE if there isant some sort of Risk? And no a crappy WoW penalty of finding your body isant a penalty.

Its pretty obvious that all you ahve palyed is WoW no wonder you made such a terrable post.

I second that laugh!

Because it gives a point to the game. If there was no point in dying but to make you ghost walk to your corpse, why play? Is there a reason? Are you fighting for a land you love? Or simply playing some kind of pvp centric game?

On another subject, IMO perma-death would make achievements greater (OMG YOU KILLED A DRAGON AND LIVED?!!! YOU ARE A LEGEND!) and give people a bit more roleplaying leverage (should i kill this person just because he annoys me or would I receive retaliation by his friends if they found out?).

However, permadeath in any of the current level-centric games would not work as it would anger people and make them mad for losing all they have gained. There would have to be an entire new kind of gameplay style.

Originally posted by Bladin

For me the game itself should be hard to play, not just have penalties upon death to make the game "seem" harder.  A good mmo to me would make it so EVERY SINGLE MOB AND ENEMY could kill you, while you were still around that ones strength, if you didn't play well enough or luck was not in your favor, it would be all over.  EVERY SINGLE TIME.

A nice idea.  But if death can occurr EVERYTIME who cares if there is no form of penalty?

"oops! i died again."  *gets back up and attacks the now weakened enemy.    There HAS TO BE a penalty for dying.  even if it's just loss of time while you run back to your corpse.  Otherwise, whats the risk?  why should i even be slightly interested in fighting when i KNOW i can try and die 1000 times and eventually beat the bad guy?  you might as well turn on 'god mode' and destroy everyone.  is that fun?  not for most ppl over the age of 5.

 

Originally posted by Bladin

A harsh death penalty does nothing but make you spend LESS time playing the game, and MORE time getting ready to play. If you have to spend 5 hours getting ready to play the game every time i die, then thats 5 hours i could have spent in a non dp game actually playing through content.  Even a hour of work upon a death is more then what i want.  5-10 minutes is the maximum time i'll spend in any game waiting as a result of a death.  Since if i had to spend a hour of my time gaming regearing after a death... thats a hour i'd be able to spend playing anything else and having fun. 

I play games to have fun, and if i'm not having fun i'm not gonna play anymore.

your example is a clear referance to WoW 'epic' quests.  and in this I agree!  No we should NOT have to spend hours/days/weeks preparing for an encounter.  That being said, If you join and epic quest, why shouldn't it be difficult/dangerous?  Once again as per my above post, without a risk of some kind the challenge/excitement vanishes.

 

 

<sigh>

I bet you're one of those people that just peels the stickers off of the Rubik's Cube and re-sticks them so it looks like you solved it.

It's really hard to know where to begin on this one. I think I'll start by deconstructing the CRPG.

Let's go back. Waaaaayyyyy back. Like, to the beginning. I want you to download and play through on game of Lost Labyrinth. Go on. It won't take you any longer than 20 minutes, tops! I promise. Done? Cool. Let's go over what you now know.

Did  you notice how you had keep track of everything? You had to pay close attention to your inventory because you needed to drink and eat to stay alive. You probably also noticed that you didn't autoheal. This meant that you had keep track of how many healing herbs you had and sometimes take the risk of drinking a potion or reading a scroll that you knew nothing about. Did  you notice how your arrows would run out? Yep, you had to keep track or you'd run out of ammo and have to fight with your hands. Mana also didn't just regenerate on it's own. If you ran into a shop, you had to make a tough decision as to whether or not you wanted to buy the best weapons and armor you could afford, or buy food and water. You had no idea how long it would be before you found another merchant, food, water, or healing of any kind. Your character would advance with every dungeon level so if you wanted to try to avoid combat you could, but that would mean missing out on potential gold and items that you might need later on in the dungeon.

Do you see where I'm going with this? CRPGs are mostly about logistics. MMORPGs are no exception to this rule. The best CRPGs have this thing called "diminishing returns." It means that as your party becomes more powerful, they become more expensive to upkeep. Weapons break and healing cost money. The further you go, the more you have to take risks just to afford the trip. In this way, most CRPGs act as a distant cousin to 4X strategy games.

Like most Strategy games, the player starts off with few options and gains more as he / she progresses. Not all options can be followed, so the player is forced to think about their long term strategy. Unlike most strategy games, you are not really given a single opponent that you know a great deal about. Instead, the scale concentrates on random, individual events that you have to be ready for by planning ahead. You can't really prepare for everything, so you have to be resourceful with every new situation that arises. Without the elements of uncertainty and diminishing returns, there isn't really anything you can call a "game."

MMORPGs have already done away with much of the CRPG formula. You have that handy mine-map with the icons pointing you directly to where you need to go, thus destroying the need for exploration. All the items that are dropped are clearly labeled as to what they do and none of them are cursed or cause any negative effects even when not identified. And finally there's autoheal. The less said about that the better.....

At the very least, death penalties add tension to the game and cause players to actually <gasp> THINK about what they're doing. In a rather indirect way, it's really about responsibility. hmmmm......

Originally posted by cheshyrecat

Originally posted by Bladin

For me the game itself should be hard to play, not just have penalties upon death to make the game "seem" harder.  A good mmo to me would make it so EVERY SINGLE MOB AND ENEMY could kill you, while you were still around that ones strength, if you didn't play well enough or luck was not in your favor, it would be all over.  EVERY SINGLE TIME.

A nice idea.  But if death can occurr EVERYTIME who cares if there is no form of penalty?

"oops! i died again."  *gets back up and attacks the now weakened enemy.    There HAS TO BE a penalty for dying.  even if it's just loss of time while you run back to your corpse.  Otherwise, whats the risk?  why should i even be slightly interested in fighting when i KNOW i can try and die 1000 times and eventually beat the bad guy?  you might as well turn on 'god mode' and destroy everyone.  is that fun?  not for most ppl over the age of 5.

 

Originally posted by Bladin

A harsh death penalty does nothing but make you spend LESS time playing the game, and MORE time getting ready to play. If you have to spend 5 hours getting ready to play the game every time i die, then thats 5 hours i could have spent in a non dp game actually playing through content.  Even a hour of work upon a death is more then what i want.  5-10 minutes is the maximum time i'll spend in any game waiting as a result of a death.  Since if i had to spend a hour of my time gaming regearing after a death... thats a hour i'd be able to spend playing anything else and having fun. 

I play games to have fun, and if i'm not having fun i'm not gonna play anymore.

your example is a clear referance to WoW 'epic' quests.  and in this I agree!  No we should NOT have to spend hours/days/weeks preparing for an encounter.  That being said, If you join and epic quest, why shouldn't it be difficult/dangerous?  Once again as per my above post, without a risk of some kind the challenge/excitement vanishes.

 

 

 

But see heres where YOUR logic fails. 

I hate dieing in games.  I loathe it, i'll use expensive potions, long cooldowns, various other tactics to stay alive even in a situation where im 10 feet from a "Graveyard".  Because losing is something i loathe.

Dieing to me means i've lost.  And wining in games is what i'm after.  I run from teams about to wipe, i see someone running at us with a intent to kill while teaming with a friend? i leave him as bait(unless i can kill the guy then its go time).  Even without penalties.  I play guild wars random arena for hours trying to win, no ranking, no real gain or loss.  Just the fight and the want to win.  I do not wish to find a guild to spend time getting everyone with the perfect char in the perfect build for the perfect team, and play.

And see when it comes to a point where you can't enjoy a game, you can't care about winning, or care about achieving anything, without being penalized or crippled then it's time to re-evaluate why you play games.  Your not truely enjoying the game, rather the rush and fear of being crippled, because of a loss, not the actual loss itself.  Ever play fps or tps games?  I do, quite often i enjoy it and i will also work as hard as i can to live and win.  But when i lose, do i have to spend a hour being transported back to a hospital, then waiting in a jeep on the way back, just waiting to get back into the action.  Would you play that game?  Why do you want to experience that in a mmo?  it's still a video game.

This goes for things such as bungee jumping and mountain climbing, they aren't enjoying the actual experience of the activity, rather the risk of death.  Which is why when people die from these type of activities, i honestly say they deserve it, they put their life at risk, nobody should be surprised at their death.  They shouldn't get news time, and they shouldn't get mourned, or get movies/books made about them as if they were heroes.  People who purposely risk their life for fun and die from it, are losers.

But the thing here is In a mmorpg dieing does not mean the end of the road.   You continue on, keep fighting more battles.  Asking to stop you from continueing on for a extended period of time, is just that you will be able to play this game LESS and spend MORE time waiting.  And frankly thats not a cause for a excitement, and thrill, if your desperate for thrills maybe, but in the end it leads to nothing but boredom.

i loved playing swg as jedi. the death penalty that set you back a few hours made it soooo much fun when a bounty hunter came around.